On Bullies and the Bullied

[harlan]

Would a safer comparison be 'terrorists'? I can understand why any self-professed childhood bully would be uncomfortable with sharing a label with some of history's worst case examples. It is, of course, a spectrum. As humans, we all share the same genetic makeup for good and bad.

 

[Steve]

At this point, Harlan, you're completely out of line and I would recommend that you take your own advice and recuse yourself from the discussion. You're going to get yourself banned if you persist.

 

[Grenadier]

There's simply no need to bring in references to the Nazis, Al-Qaeda, the KKK, Black Panthers, etc. These groups really have nothing to do with the current discussion. If you want to bring them into such talks, then start a new thread.

This is a very good discussion, and I'd rather we keep it on-topic.

That being said:

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator

 

[Blade96]

Exactly the kind of thing I was mentioning before. I'd put most kids in the same boat.

Yup.

But you said yourself that you took part in bullying other kids. Why then don't you consider yourself a bully? Blade, this is EXACTLY what I was driving at... this disconnect between the bullying behavior and people who consider themselves to be bullies.

when i took part in the behavior i was being a bully. being led by the leaders of this clique which i now recognize was evil. I didnt know it at the time. i didnt know that that group would be defined as a clique (and that 3 years later when we reached high school, grade 10 - we were in grade 7 when we met - that same group turned on me and started bullying me in high school.) I quit high school in grade 10. never graduated.

i absolutely regret it - the fact i joined in the clique's bullying others and to think about it makes me want to puke in my mouth. and i hope to god these people the clique hurt were ok with their lives.

It also shows the dangers of cliques and that mob mentality and doing what you did for survival and to fit in, which would be for another topic. and being a bullied kid you dont want to be alone, you're likely to go along with bad stuff to stay part of that group.

 

[Steve]

Yup.

when i took part in the behavior i was being a bully. being led by the leaders of this clique which i now recognize was evil. I didnt know it at the time. i didnt know that that group would be defined as a clique (and that 3 years later when we reached high school, grade 10 - we were in grade 7 when we met - that same group turned on me and started bullying me in high school.) I quit high school in grade 10. never graduated.

It's a shame it worked out like that. As I've said before, I believe that MOST kids who bully aren't evil, chronic bullies, like you. I don't know what the situation was for you in Grade 7. One of the points I'm trying to make, though, is that if you had been worked with in Grade 7 to try and help you develop healthier communication skills and better ways to cope with peer pressure and such, your Grade 10 might have been very different. Impossible to know for sure, but this is what I'm suggesting.

i absolutely regret it - the fact i joined in the clique's bullying others and to think about it makes me want to puke in my mouth. and i hope to god these people the clique hurt were ok with their lives.

It also shows the dangers of cliques and that mob mentality and doing what you did for survival and to fit in, which would be for another topic. and being a bullied kid you dont want to be alone, you're likely to go along with bad stuff to stay part of that group.

Mob mentality, or more specifically, peer pressure can be good or bad. Making things that are positive or healthy "cool" for kids to participate in is a great thing.

Blade, I really appreciate your honesty. As I've said before, your situation is precisely the sort of experience I was referring to in the original post. In the OP, I made four main points:

• Most kids, both bullies and victims of bullying, grow up into decent human beings.
• In a group of bullies, most if not all are simply trying to get along.
• Kids who are bullied are as much a part of the equation as kids who bully characterizing the bullied as the victims and the bullies as the villians is counterproductive.
• Adult intervention is critical, but we can't insulate kids completely from each other. IMO, often the best intervention is indirect, teaching kids skills they're lacking rather than direct intervention.

 

[Blade96]

It's a shame it worked out like that. As I've said before, I believe that MOST kids who bully aren't evil, chronic bullies, like you. I don't know what the situation was for you in Grade 7. One of the points I'm trying to make, though, is that if you had been worked with in Grade 7 to try and help you develop healthier communication skills and better ways to cope with peer pressure and such, your Grade 10 might have been very different. Impossible to know for sure, but this is what I'm suggesting.

You could be right. and the bullies desperately needed those skills as well.

Mob mentality, or more specifically, peer pressure can be good or bad. Making things that are positive or healthy "cool" for kids to participate in is a great thing.

Yups.

Blade, I really appreciate your honesty. As I've said before, your situation is precisely the sort of experience I was referring to in the original post. In the OP, I made four main points:

• Most kids, both bullies and victims of bullying, grow up into decent human beings.

True perhaps. I've no idea what the people who bullied me were like when they became adults. Because I've not ever run into them again. (i'm glad of it actually.)

• In a group of bullies, most if not all are simply trying to get along.

might be they want to get along but dont know how.

• Kids who are bullied are as much a part of the equation as kids who bully characterizing the bullied as the victims and the bullies as the villians is counterproductive.

Still don't agree with this 100% especially in my own case. Maybe because my case was more of a severe case where intervention was needed and in your OP you seemed to be talking about your 'ordinary, basic, playground bully' not very violent teen criminals, as in my case.

• Adult intervention is critical, but we can't insulate kids completely from each other. IMO, often the best intervention is indirect, teaching kids skills they're lacking rather than direct intervention.

when You say that something about some kids makes them more vulnerable and they are as much a part of it it seems like you mean the ordinary basic playground bully and not some violent vicious teen criminals. You may correct me if I'm wrong. The ones who bullied me were evil, chronic, savages. I have a feeling that's not what you meant. I think you know that for this case there has to be intervention.

Just wondering, what makes you come to the conclusion that often the best intervention is indirect? you said what you were thinking (cool) but I'd like to know how you came to the conslusions you did.

Glad you like my honesty. I've not told this much of my story to anybody tbh. but something about MT and its people made me trust you all.

 

[Stac3y]

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

I can honestly say that NO ONE ever thought of me as a bully. Never. I was physically incapable of being one, for one thing; I was the smallest kid in my grade through the end of 6th grade (bar one girl, who technically qualified as a little person). I was only consistently bullied by one girl, but was beaten up by boys on a fairly regular basis, even after I took to biting and scratching when attacked. Teachers did nothing about this, even when I laid out the scenario clearly; eventually I gave up telling them. I was extremely shy, also, and was never good at the verbal nastiness that little girls are known for. Only my family ever really got the sharp side of my tongue. I was not allowed to defend myself if my younger (but bigger) brother physically attacked me because he was the baby of the family, so I was bullied by him, also.

However, I have, through conscious effort, changed my behavior and become a strong, confident woman who is perfectly capable of arguing a point and making my opinions known. Karate has been a large part of this transformation, but so has aging, education, and experience. Part of the reason I put my kids in karate is that it fosters self-confidence--if you know that you can fight if you have to, you're less likely to start something--you don't have anything to prove--and it's easier to walk away from someone else's stupidity.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I wanted to post this link; mainly because I disagree with just about every word in it. But it is typical and exemplary of educated people who don't have a lick of common sense.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_News_Local_E_rosen15.1.45edf8a.html

Rosen: Healthy and productive ways to deal with bullying
10:00 PM PDT on Wednesday, April 14, 2010

By MITCHELL ROSEN
Special to The Press-Enterprise

When children are bullied, it is tempting to take them to a boxing gym or martial arts studio and teach them to defend themselves. Fathers are particularly fond of this idea; mothers not as much. What I observe happens when an angry and frustrated child learns to be a capable fighting presence is that the youngster skips the part of learning why they are easily targeted and instead learns that might makes right. We have to ask ourselves as a society: Do we want cadres of bullied and tormented children walking around with black belts in karate?

Although the philosophy of martial arts instructors is to teach their students never to initiate violence or bully others, often this is the consequence of giving young children the means to mete out vigilante justice. It is unrealistic to ask of a 9-, 12- or 14-year-old the next time they are tormented to simply deflect blows when they know they can pulverize their tormentor. It should be the responsibility of the adults, not the children, to be certain all kids are safe where they go to school or in the neighborhood they live.

There is more, and you can click on the link to read it. As I said, I disagree with just about all of it, from the first erroneous assertion onwards ("What I observe happens when an angry and frustrated child learns to be a capable fighting presence is that the youngster skips the part of learning why they are easily targeted and instead learns that might makes right.").

 

[Bruno@MT]

Do we want cadres of bullied and tormented children walking around with black belts in karate?

Yes.

Seriously. It is indeed the responsibility of the adults to raise their kids properly and to keep them from becoming bullies. But it is not unreasonable to teach a bullied kid to stand up for himself / herself.

I've taught my oldest daughter (today she turned 5 ) that fighting is only for self defense. I've also explained that if other kids are bullying her, she is to tell the teacher / supervisor. And I've told her that if that doesn't end the problems, she can kick, hit or shove the other kid and my wife and I will never be angry with her but support her.

I've also hung a heavy punch bag in the garage so that I can teach her how to hit and kick properly without hurting herself. I hope that I can interest her enough that she'll develop these skills as she grows older.

 

[Blade96]

I wanted to post this link; mainly because I disagree with just about every word in it. But it is typical and exemplary of educated people who don't have a lick of common sense.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_News_Local_E_rosen15.1.45edf8a.html


There is more, and you can click on the link to read it. As I said, I disagree with just about all of it, from the first erroneous assertion onwards ("What I observe happens when an angry and frustrated child learns to be a capable fighting presence is that the youngster skips the part of learning why they are easily targeted and instead learns that might makes right.").

I agree with you. Mainly because this also happened to me. where there was this girl, a real douche nobody liked (she was this ******* vampire who literally bit peoples necks and abused people) and she started beating up on me one day on the school bus. Since she wasnt very powerful either in size or in the sense of having supporters, I lost it then and there and when she was beating up on me and hurting me I fought back. I just lost it, jumped on her literally, and beat the living snot out of her. Nobody cared probably because she wasnt liked and they felt it was deserved anyways. I didnt get in trouble.

I do think people need self defense skills. Not to create vigilantes or for revenge but to help people stand up for themselves. Wish I could have been able to do that against the other bullies who had more power than myself.

 

[angrywhitepajamas]

I have a question for everyone. What type of actions would you advocate or suggest in response to socially aggressive bullying?

The reason I ask is that often times social bullying is harder to deal with, harder to prove, and in a vague area of disciplinary action. Also if used often enough a social aggressor will cut off or deny the posiiblity of any response beyond one of a physical nature for the victim. My interest in this is to find out what everyone here regards as a valid response to the escalation of this kind of conflict. I would ask about physical responses, but I think everyone here has sufficiently expressed their opinions. Although more is welcome.