Old Fashioned Courtesy and Manners

[Sukerkin]

Before I even start this I know that many who know me out in the real world (as well as here ) consider me an anachronistic throw-back in the way I behave. I have manners and social courtesies that have not been current for a long time, even with the rosiest of spectacles on. In part this is because it is the way I was brought up and in part because my young years were spent reading what are now considered classical literature; so it is hardly a shock that my 'manners' are considered Dickensian or Brontean .

I came across this on Facepalm (aka more usually as Facebook):

Chivalry isn't dead, it just followed wherever being lady-like went.

It is hard for men to feel the desire to be chivalrous to women who don't act like a lady. I mean, who wants to be chivalrous to some foul-mouthed, slobby, obnoxious woman, who is unappreciative and snippy? Nobody!

But, do it anyway. That's right, the true gentleman warrior will do it anyway. We act in a chivalrous way because that is the kind of man we desire to be, not because someone else deserves, or doesn't deserve, to be treated special. Open the door for the obnoxious, scummy looking woman, as well as the beautiful, gracious woman.

It is up to you whether or not you want to be a gentleman warrior, but if you decide to walk this path, it is not up to you to decide when and where you will be a gentleman and when you won't. You either are a gentleman or you are not. Be a gentleman. Who knows, maybe your actions will be the thing that starts someone on the path to changing their own life. Bohdi Sanders

I do find myself instinctively in agreement with this (altho' I would not restrict myself to only showing honour to ladies) and I have ever argued that good manners and politeness are 'infectious', having seen the standard of courtesy flower at my place of work over the past fifteen years or so and taking some credit for that. Indeed, with the recent devastating loss of my wife to cancer, I have been touched beyond telling by the affection and good regard that my work-mates have reflected back to me with their actions and words. A mans measure can sometimes be assessed by what those that surround him think of him and, whilst I might feel that my 'measure' has been stretched somewhat, I am still most pleased to be so well thought of.

That's by the by for the point I want to make tho'. Which is, do we think that it is possible that by dint of sufficient example, we can recover some of the veneer of civilisation we seem to have lost since, say, the 70's?

 

[arnisador]

Politeness and manners yes, but do we really want to bring back the glory days of highly gendered social expectations? I think the youngsters were right to do away with them.

 

[granfire]

Politeness and manners yes, but do we really want to bring back the glory days of highly gendered social expectations? I think the youngsters were right to do away with them.

well, being a lady does not equal being helpless and needy.

it just means you can tell people to go to hell in a way they will enjoy the trip! (and I am not quiet there yet, dammit!)

I guess I am a gentlelady warrior. I hold doors for people before or behind me. Leading by example, hoping to make the world around me a little better.

 

[aedrasteia]

who wants to be chivalrous to some foul-mouthed, slobby, obnoxious woman, who is unappreciative and snippy? Nobody!
Open the door for the obnoxious, scummy looking woman, as well as the beautiful, gracious woman.
Bohdi Sanders

Suk, Arnisador and Gran

Do you know of Judith Martin? Better known as Miss Manners? Please do a search, enjoy her comments and
appreciate her books. She refers to people who ask her advice as "Gentle Readers" regardless of the question,
and she is funny, kind, whip-smart and her suggestions are 'spot on 'as Suk might say.

She is my guide in all things involving relations with other humans and will make you laugh and wince, often simultaneously.
Adrastia is much improved by her advice and example.

She has written several books and all are excellent but Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
is best known and easily foound.

In her spirit, I strongly agree with Mr. Sanders about practicing kindness and respectful treatment of others

I also find myself puzzling over the self-congratulatory claims of someone who contemptuously refers
to others as 'slobby, obnoxious and scummy' . Making sweeping, harsh judgements of others, followed by
a condescending extension of courtesy to those who are considered undeserving by the speaker
strikes me as the opposite of the very behavior he is recommending.

 

[Drasken]

Suk, Arnisador and Gran

Do you know of Judith Martin? Better known as Miss Manners? Please do a search, enjoy her comments and
appreciate her books. She refers to people who ask her advice as "Gentle Readers" regardless of the question,
and she is funny, kind, whip-smart and her suggestions are 'spot on 'as Suk might say.

She is my guide in all things involving relations with other humans and will make you laugh and wince, often simultaneously.
Adrastia is much improved by her advice and example.

She has written several books and all are excellent but Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
is best known and easily foound.

In her spirit, I strongly agree with Mr. Sanders about practicing kindness and respectful treatment of others

I also find myself puzzling over the self-congratulatory claims of someone who contemptuously refers
to others as 'slobby, obnoxious and scummy' . Making sweeping, harsh judgements of others, followed by
a condescending extension of courtesy to those who are considered undeserving by the speaker
strikes me as the opposite of the very behavior he is recommending.

I believe the original author made those comments to directly make note of what reasons are given by others for their lack of gentlemanly behavior.

 

[granfire]

Suk, Arnisador and Gran

Do you know of Judith Martin? Better known as Miss Manners? Please do a search, enjoy her comments and
appreciate her books. She refers to people who ask her advice as "Gentle Readers" regardless of the question,
and she is funny, kind, whip-smart and her suggestions are 'spot on 'as Suk might say.

She is my guide in all things involving relations with other humans and will make you laugh and wince, often simultaneously.
Adrastia is much improved by her advice and example.

She has written several books and all are excellent but Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
is best known and easily foound.

In her spirit, I strongly agree with Mr. Sanders about practicing kindness and respectful treatment of others

I also find myself puzzling over the self-congratulatory claims of someone who contemptuously refers
to others as 'slobby, obnoxious and scummy' . Making sweeping, harsh judgements of others, followed by
a condescending extension of courtesy to those who are considered undeserving by the speaker
strikes me as the opposite of the very behavior he is recommending.

I believe the original author made those comments to directly make note of what reasons are given by others for their lack of gentlemanly behavior.

Yep.
You know Suke would not say such a thing out loud!

I have on occasion read Miss Manners. I do enjoy the reminder that not all people are like the proprietors of 'the people of Walmart'

 

[K-man]

In her spirit, I strongly agree with Mr. Sanders about practicing kindness and respectful treatment of others

I also find myself puzzling over the self-congratulatory claims of someone who contemptuously refers
to others as 'slobby, obnoxious and scummy' . Making sweeping, harsh judgements of others, followed by
a condescending extension of courtesy to those who are considered undeserving by the speaker
strikes me as the opposite of the very behavior he is recommending.

Ouch!!! Wow, I felt that all the way over here! How are you feeling Suk? That was below the belt!

It is hard for men to feel the desire to be chivalrous to women who don't act like a lady. I mean, who wants to be chivalrous to some foul-mouthed, slobby, obnoxious woman, who is unappreciative and snippy? Nobody!

I mean Suk clearly didn't make a 'judgement'. It's more like opinion based on observation, I would suggest, and of course, purely hypothetical, and rhetorical.

 

[Mauthos]

I myself have always been the type of person to try and be polite to anyone and will hold the door open for anyone whether young or old, regardless of gender. Sure, it annoys the hell out of me when someone walks through, barely glances in your direction and never says thank you (a particular women in my office does this every time anyone holds a door for her) but I will never change.

However, one women did experience me shutting the door in her face when I held it open for her and she literally screamed at me, saying that did I think she was incapable of opening it herself, that she wasn't weaker than me or needed a man to help her out. So mid-rant I let the door go and walked off, at least she got her wish to open the door herself.

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: I can see that the different font and size doesn't sufficiently show the quoted portion of the OP.

From "Chivalry isn't dead", to "Bohdi Sanders" is the portion I lifted from a Facebook post and is what prompted me to bring the subject up.

 

[Sukerkin]

I had that happen to me on my first day at university, Mauthos. Got a public dressing down for holding the door to the Students Union building open for a coterie of young lasses feeling their Feminist Oats for the first time. After that, took me a long time to come around to thinking that Feminism as a philosophy still had much to recommend it even if some of those professing it were less than stellar advertisements for it.

I am an equal opportunity practitioner when it comes to courtesy - indeed I took it as read that readers of the OP would understand that I was not just talking about showing good manners to the ladies whose paths we cross. After all it wouldn't be Common Courtesy if I was selective about its application :lol:.

 

[Instructor]

Yes I would like to see society become more courteous. I am not sure I want to us to be like our forebears but more courtesy and eloquent language would be refreshing.

 

[Instructor]

I think computers, text messages, and cellular phones have contributed drastically to the decline of the spoken and written English language.

 

[DennisBreene]

I had that happen to me on my first day at university, Mauthos. Got a public dressing down for holding the door to the Students Union building open for a coterie of young lasses feeling their Feminist Oats for the first time. After that, took me a long time to come around to thinking that Feminism as a philosophy still had much to recommend it even if some of those professing it were less than stellar advertisements for it.

I am an equal opportunity practitioner when it comes to courtesy - indeed I took it as read that readers of the OP would understand that I was not just talking about showing good manners to the ladies whose paths we cross. After all it wouldn't be Common Courtesy if I was selective about its application :lol:.

I saw similar events take place while in medical school. As I have matured (euphamisitcally), I have come to realize that at that age we are all prone to highly prized new concepts and a slight underdevelopment of the frontal lobes. This leads us to charge in brashly, before we have taken the time to understand the intent of another's gestures. Fortunately, as we mature, most of us learn to see a simple kindness for what it is.

 

[DennisBreene]

Oh, and the incident in question was the near assault of a professor of infectious disease by some of our brightest female students. He had posited that the wearing of Scrub Dresses vs Scrub pants in the operating room resulted in greater "pelvic fall out" and contamination of the sterile involvement. This was construed as blatant sexism as oppossed to the reasoned and ultimately correct hypothesis that is was. Current standards call for pants for all and shirts tucked in regardless of gender. So much for pressing one's social, moral and political agenda's onto scientific debate. Ulitimately the leader of that female lynch party has become a well respected professor of Ob-Gyn and with maturity has gained the ability to engage in polite discourse. My point being, it behoves those of us with older minds to model polite behavior to the young. It may take them some time but they can be brought over to the polite side.

 

[pgsmith]

That's by the by for the point I want to make tho'. Which is, do we think that it is possible that by dint of sufficient example, we can recover some of the veneer of civilisation we seem to have lost since, say, the 70's?

My belief is that it is all a reaction to the information age. People were once much more polite to those in their social circle. The beginning of the information age resulted in young people having a much greater interaction with those outside of their parent's social circle. This led to the realization that their forebears were very insular and prejudiced in their outlook. This, in turn, led to the radical changes of the 60's and 70's, as the younger generation attempted to redefine relationships with those around them. This led to hippies, free love, the drug culture, and student protests. It has also led to gender, racial and, I believe it will eventually come about, sexual preference equality.

That particular pendulum of social interaction has continued to swing back and forth from each extreme, and will eventually settle down somewhere in the middle. In the mean time, all we can do is model our own behaviour on what we each consider proper, and hope to lead by example. There's no real need to find reasons other than it is what you believe to be proper.