Obama to end Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[Twin Fist]

ah, but shouldnt the MILITARY determine what is a legit reason for disallowing someone the priviledge of serving?

better them than some bleeding heart social scientist.

If the military says "bad idea" about something related to the military, i tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.

like i said, one rule, one standard, ONE military.

not one for men, one for gays, one for women, one for..........

Getting hired by a company isn't a privilege either, but if you refuse to hire them for being a woman or being black, you can bet your a** you'll be in for a lawsuit. Being overweight or flatfooted or using drugs are all legitimate reasons to keep someone out of the military. There really isn't a particularly legitimate reason why gays can't serve. Sure, you don't have the right to serve in the military, but that doesn't mean they can discriminate for whatever damn reason they choose. I mean, the military's the government, after all.

 

[arnisador]

ah, but shouldnt the MILITARY determine what is a legit reason for disallowing someone the priviledge of serving?

Absolutely not. Civilian control of the military is essential.

 

[Twin Fist]

control isnt the same as setting standards

 

[RandomPhantom700]

ah, but shouldnt the MILITARY determine what is a legit reason for disallowing someone the priviledge of serving?

better them than some bleeding heart social scientist.

If the military says "bad idea" about something related to the military, i tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.

like i said, one rule, one standard, ONE military.

not one for men, one for gays, one for women, one for..........

And they are in control of determining what is a legitimate reason, but frankly, if the military decided to revert to "blacks can't serve" or "women can't serve", I think you'd agree that there'd be an unconstitutional discrimination there. Even though the military's in control of setting the standards, they still can't make prejudicial ones. So if it's wrong for them to bar blacks or women from serving in the military, why is it legitimate for them to bar gays from serving? What interest is being served by the distinction other than reinforcing prejudice?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

control isnt the same as setting standards

No, but when those standards set by the military administration run contrary to the civilian control, civilian control trumps, as it should. And by civilian control, I don't mean just some group of "bleeding heart liberals", I mean the elected powers, i.e. the President and Congress.

 

[Twin Fist]

Gays are not barred from serving

why is it legitimate for them to bar gays from serving? What interest is being served by the distinction other than reinforcing prejudice?

 

[elder999]

Gays are not barred from serving

Nope, quite right. They're just barred from "being gay."

 

[arnisador]

They're not barred from serving if they agree to waive more of their First Amendment rights than other servicemembers must.

 

[geezer]

Nope, quite right. They're just barred from "being gay."

Bottom line: "Don't ask, don't tell" is not working. I suspect President Obama will address this issue. If not, sooner or later, someone will. And, whatever our personal fellings are, we'll get over it. Look, I was raised to be as homophobic as the next redneck. I've also learned to deal with it. At various times in my life, I've had to share sleeping quarters and bathrooms with both girls and gays. I learned to deal with it. In fact it was no big deal. And when homophobic young recruits learn that the gay and lesbian soldiers they serve with "have their back" and will risk their lives to save their butts in combat, same as any of their other "brothers", this BS will all go away real fast.

And no, I'm not a vet. Tried, but didn't pass the physical because of bone fusions in my ankles. Didn't matter how fit, strong, or willing I proved myself to be. So go ahead and discount my opinion in advance.

Oh, and Tez... Keep on reminding us about how the British do things. You guys also eliminated slavery a generation before we did -- after the scandalous horror of the "Zone" case. As a buddy of mine, a history teacher here (who actually happens to be a Canadian citizen) often likes to point out, we Americans would probably be a bit further along if we'd lost the damn Revolutionary war!

 

[Twin Fist]

Bottom line: "Don't ask, don't tell" is not working.

it works well for everyone BUT bleeding heart social engineer wanna be's

even though i think it is crap.

Arnisdor,
EVERY service member gives up that freedom of speech crap. There are LOTS of things that military people cant talk about. It's part fo the gig

 

[arnisador]

Yes, but gay service members give up more than do others. Some people can introduce their girlfriend to their CO...others can't.

 

[tellner]

TF, I'm sorry that your tender delicate feelings are hurt when you're forced to be around people who are different than you. But we really don't have time for your narcissistic social engineering. Catering to irrational fears, superstitious prejudice and girlish panic attacks at the thought of not being the Lord of Creation just isn't in the cards anymore.

 

[Tez3]

In this day and age having an argument like this is surely ridiculous! Using excuses like sharing showers is feeble, these days the only people who share showers are people who want to, sleeping together (as in sleeping not a euphemism for sex) is hardly a problem as far as any sexual connotations are concerned, the snoring and farting usually see to that!

Our club attended a martial arts seminar down south a while back and the Sensei of the host club put us all us, ten of us male and female in sleeping bags on his sitting room floor, bless him he fed us all too. We shared the bathroom too, singly. Students here share accomodation either in the accomodation provided or in houses they've rented. They'll be male, female, gay and lesbians. No one cares as long as no one pinches others food or doesn't pay the rent. it's about priorities.

That's the thing though isn't it? Concentrate on what's important, mates regardless of sexual orientation, who are there for you when it counts. Those bullets whizzing past your ear or mortars being dropping on you don't care whether you fancy men or women.

and really does it matter it someone of the same sex fancies you? if an approach is made and you don't fancy them back all you have to do is politely decline the same as you would with a person of the opposite sex. Personally I don't fancy women but if one was to fancy me I'd take it as a compliment, it's nice to be thought of as fanciable to my mind. There is no reason to suppose that gay people force their attentions on anyone, I think actually they are more likely to be more reticent, it's the 'macho' type men that tend to force their attention on women if anything.

It's really just a matter of respect, respect people and treat them as you would want to be treated, it works as well in the Forces as anywhere else maybe even better as service people tend to have better self discipline!

 

[Cryozombie]

In this day and age having an argument like this is surely ridiculous! Using excuses like sharing showers is feeble, these days the only people who share showers are people who want to,

Don't take my participation in this as Anti Gay or as Supporting TF in any way, cuz I dont care if you like fish or steak, its your business, but I have to point out, that Unless things in the U.S. Military have changed Radically since the late 80s and early 90s you aren't given a choice to share showers; they tell you "Shower" and you do so with 50 other guys in your barracks. At least thats how it is durring Basic and AIT in the Army at Ft. Benning and NO you don't have a choice about it.

 

[Tez3]

Don't take my participation in this as Anti Gay or as Supporting TF in any way, cuz I dont care if you like fish or steak, its your business, but I have to point out, that Unless things in the U.S. Military have changed Radically since the late 80s and early 90s you aren't given a choice to share showers; they tell you "Shower" and you do so with 50 other guys in your barracks. At least thats how it is durring Basic and AIT in the Army at Ft. Benning and NO you don't have a choice about it.

Then it's time your forces were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century!
Rooms here in basic training are shared but the showers and toilets are still in cubicles for privacy, nor are the recruits yelled at to shower, it's assumed they have the sense to know when to without being ordered to. They aren't much good as soldiers if they have to be told stuff like that.
Attitudes and training shouldn't be so old fashioned that it fails to train modern soldiers.

http://www.army.mod.uk/training_education/training/9992.aspx

 

[Cryozombie]

Rooms here in basic training are shared but the showers and toilets are still in cubicles for privacy, nor are the recruits yelled at to shower, it's assumed they have the sense to know when to without being ordered to. They aren't much good as soldiers if they have to be told stuff like that.
Attitudes and training shouldn't be so old fashioned that it fails to train modern soldiers.

Well, the toilets are in cubicles. The showers are semi-divided. But as far as being told to, you gotta understand, over here they arent taking tea and crumpet breaks and all... they run em hard morining to night... if they didnt tell these guys GET UP AND S!S!S! most of them would try for that extra 10 minutes of rack time before formation.

 

[Tez3]

Well, the toilets are in cubicles. The showers are semi-divided. But as far as being told to, you gotta understand, over here they arent taking tea and crumpet breaks and all... they run em hard morining to night... if they didnt tell these guys GET UP AND S!S!S! most of them would try for that extra 10 minutes of rack time before formation.

Really? We train the hardest soldiers in the world, that'll be the SAS, the SBS, the Parachute Regiment, The Highland Division, The Royal Marine Commandos (the ones who hitchhike on Apache helicopters to save their mates), the Kings Division, The Gurkhas etc etc. Here they don't need to be told because they get up in time, it's called self discipline!
Doesn't American military instructions say not to play cards, drink or fight with British soldiers because they'll get beaten and drunk under the table every time? :ultracool

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MY9O_Wr3rpE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1bg7OnFWeEA&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NGz0JybyV38

the Paras idea of tea and crumpets.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs&feature=related
The MMA record of the PTI reffing the milling
http://www.mmauniverse.com/fighters/SS354

 

[Twin Fist]

a long, non contributary ad hom that's been reported

but
i will respond

1- LEARN TO FRIGGIN READ TELLNER

i have said all along that WANT the ban lifted. Or did you miss that? ir, as i suspect, you dont really care what i or anyone else thinks, so long as you get to spew your ****? Go back and read Sparky, i have said, at LEAST 5 times that i think dont ask dont tell is pretty retarded and needs to go

2-we? who is "we"? you got a mouse in your pocket or something?


3- you never answered me when i asked if you had ever bothered serving in uniform. i will take that as a "no"

4- you got slapped around alot as a kid didnt you?

TF, I'm sorry that your tender delicate feelings are hurt when you're forced to be around people who are different than you. But we really don't have time for your narcissistic social engineering. Catering to irrational fears, superstitious prejudice and girlish panic attacks at the thought of not being the Lord of Creation just isn't in the cards anymore.

 

[Tez3]

Well as things are getting a bit heated on here perhaps this will calm things down a bit,
Ladies and Gentlemen I present the Royal Dragoon Guards.(tankies)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kPaRQ1BYjzU&feature=PlayList&p=C257771C162D6B0A&index=9

 

[tellner]

Twin Fist, I know how to read. I know how to reason. Thanks for asking.

What you are showing here is a lot of fear. You are afraid, for no good reason, of anyone who is different than you. You are afraid of all Muslims. You are afraid of anyone whose positions on economic policy aren't just like yours. You're afraid of men who sleep with men and women who sleep with women. You are afraid of anyone who votes for a different Party than you do.

I know I'm missing a few.

So what do you want? You want laws to punish people who take jobs that you don't want them to have because they are people you are afraid of.

You want to make war against over one and a half billion people because you're afraid of their religion.

You were happy when your President destroyed the rule of Law and announced that he had Supreme Power to do whatever he wanted. You cheered when he took away our civil rights. You supported every act of torture and every war crime because you were afraid. And he made you feel safe.

We spent at least one and a half trillion dollars on the social engineeering programs that were designed to make you feel happy and comfortable. We trashed the Constitution and threw away the Bill of Rights as an expermiment in pandering to your feelings. We invited the witch-burners into the halls of government because they were your sect and made you feel safe and happy.

And the minute someone punctures your happy bubble and shows that your cult or sect isn't perfect you react with blind rage.

And you accuse the rest of the world of dangerous unwelcome social experiments.

Lord have mercy, I hate to think of what you'd support next in your (to quote a famous Republican) "vain search for absolute security".