now i am pissed off

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by kkbb
Do you tink dis guy and .....



...dis guy,




....might be the same guy?

hmmmm...... a certain lack of capitalization.... similar grammar probs.....

Just an observation....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

now DATS funny!

no i am not. but i did wonder how come nobody thought that already. we do have a lot in common.

 

[kkbb]

Thought you would get a laugh out of that one...:rofl:

 

[Wingman]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Well excuse me!!! Big deal, there are a lot of different dialects, that's what I meant, stop being so technical. Just like you said, you DON'T speak the other 80 or so dialects.I never said it was THE MOTHER ART OF THE FMA, did I, I said Kali meant mother art. Are you telling me that you have personally studied ALL the Filipino martial arts styles??? Yeah OK, sure.......I believe you, really I do!


:shrug:

KenpoDragon,

I have no problem if you call your art Kali.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. "Romeo and Juliet", Act II, Scene 2, by William Shakespeare.

What I wrote about Filipino languages & Kali is for general information for everybody. I don't mean to discredit Kali. Sorry if you took it that wrong way.

 

[Veynn]

Originally posted by grimfang
There are different versions of the origin of the use of the word Kali as a martial arts term. Some claim it comes from the two word syllables Kamut which means "Hand" and Lihok which means "Movement". In short this translates to Hand Movement, with or with out weaponry. Some believe it comes from India's art called Velakali or "Sword play". A third version simply claims that Moro's warriors of the southern Philippine resembled the Hindu Goddess of death called Kali when they engaged in battle.

All I know is Kali came from the word Kalis, which means Blade.

 

[moromoro]

You didn't really answer the question .. so in regards to THIS post

numerous regime changes ..

How can you emphatically say that the word Kali is "new" ???

well it is because of the information we have, EVERYONE IN THE PHILIPPINES PRIOR TO YAMBAO"S BOOK HAVE NEVER HERD OF THE WORD KALI used in regards to the martial arts, INOSANTO popularised the term because of Vilabrile. now thats a grand total of 3 people and of course the people that where somewhat influenced by them would begin to use the word.

now should we take these peoples word that KALI is an ancient martial art of all philippines????? I THINK not.

many of the grandmasters of cebu, think of kali as an american version of eskrima/arnis.......................

the same guy

no, we only share the same love for our country's native arts.


thanks

terry

 

[Federico]

One thing on the kalis and kali linkage. Kalis is pronounced in such a way that it sounds like kris. Its one anglecised way to write the word. So, dropping the s, when pronounced would leave you with a word that sounded like kree, and not ka-li. I know its been a way to justify the kali, but again I do not believe one can take arbitrarily anglecised words, and draw condlusions. Especially with dialects that werent writtne in Roman letters till recent times. If one notices, the varied spellings of Filipino (philipino, and pilipino), the correct spelling of many Philippine dialects is still up in the air. Kinda like the tribal name Iranun, depending on what book, the author, time period, it can also be found spelt Illanun, Lanun, Lanaon, Iranaon, etc... All foreign attempts to write phonetically that which had not been written before in Roman Text. What is more key is the phonetic rather than the literary.

 

[Cruentus]

If the name of your art is "Kali," then this is fine.

But, understand that there is a ton of evidence out there supporting the notion that "Kali" was not the name of ancient FMA. This was a modern/western innovation.

There is nothing wrong with this; where the problem occurs is when you defend the "Kali" name with information that is untrue. Another problem occurs is when people fabricate fantasy stories based on the word "Kali," (or something like it). It just makes "westerners" look ignorant, and worse it is screwing with an entire history/culture of people.

Just don't do it. Don't fall into the "defensive" trap, where you find yourself defending things that aren't true because your ego refuses to believe something different. If you have an instructor who might not teach or even know adequete history of your art, then it would do you well to keep an open mind and learn about the culture, as opposed to getting defensive over what you don't know. Hell, I have a Filipino instructor for a traditional Filipino art, yet because I am not Filipino I learn new things about the culture all the time.

We are martial artists, not historians. We are not expected to know every detail of the culture from where our arts come from. We should, however, be expected to have an open mind to learning about a culture that is not our own, rather then egotistically defending what we were taught for fear of being "wrong."

:asian:
PAUL

P.S. I actually might agree with moromoro on something here. That makes me want to kick my own @$$!:hammer:

 

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by Federico
One thing on the kalis and kali linkage. Kalis is pronounced in such a way that it sounds like kris. Its one anglecised way to write the word. So, dropping the s, when pronounced would leave you with a word that sounded like kree, and not ka-li. I know its been a way to justify the kali, but again I do not believe one can take arbitrarily anglecised words, and draw condlusions. Especially with dialects that werent writtne in Roman letters till recent times. If one notices, the varied spellings of Filipino (philipino, and pilipino), the correct spelling of many Philippine dialects is still up in the air. Kinda like the tribal name Iranun, depending on what book, the author, time period, it can also be found spelt Illanun, Lanun, Lanaon, Iranaon, etc... All foreign attempts to write phonetically that which had not been written before in Roman Text. What is more key is the phonetic rather than the literary.

Federico,

good point. r and l have a similar pronunciation in the old visayan languages this is how balangay became barangay.

Another explaination put forth by Guro Ormikl D of Kalis-Kalis is how kali is written in baybayin script. in baybayin script when written seperately there are no consonants prononced at the end so we get Ba, Ka, Li, La..... . so when written characters seperately it would be be KA and LI. However, if we put the characters together to form a word it COULD be read as KALIS depending on the context of the sentence. This is how the 's' might have been dropped to get kali.

again speculation.

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[Federico]

Originally posted by Black Grass
Federico,

good point. r and l have a similar pronunciation in the old visayan languages this is how balangay became barangay.

Another explaination put forth by Guro Ormikl D of Kalis-Kalis is how kali is written in baybayin script. in baybayin script when written seperately there are no consonants prononced at the end so we get Ba, Ka, Li, La..... . so when written characters seperately it would be be KA and LI. However, if we put the characters together to form a word it COULD be read as KALIS depending on the context of the sentence. This is how the 's' might have been dropped to get kali.

again speculation.

Vince
aka Black Grass

It could read Kalis, but how would it sound? The word game, using spelling, is very tenuous especially if improper pronunciation is used. Like barong tagalog, versus barong sword. In real life they are pronounced differently, but when spealt out using these spellings, they look the same. Which is of course why many prefer the sword to be spealt barung, which is more phonetically correct, but then there are farts like me who are too used to the other spelling barong, to change. Anyways, I cant delve to far into the language game, Im not a linguist, and only speak choppy Tagalog (cant write it out though).

 

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by Wingman
KenpoDragon,

I have no problem if you call your art Kali.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. "Romeo and Juliet", Act II, Scene 2, by William Shakespeare.

What I wrote about Filipino languages & Kali is for general information for everybody. I don't mean to discredit Kali. Sorry if you took it that wrong way.

Look bro, I apologize if I came off a little harsh, but you have to understand that this is a HEATED discussion for many practitioners of any FMA. I agree with you that the name is not the main factor of an art, if you look back at my earlier posts you will see that this was the point that I was trying to make. Unfortunately Moromoro and The Kuntawman don't seem to understand this. They are to hung up on what they believe is a total lack of respect for "their" culture. They are not seeing the fact that when people of any race or religion practice a FMA that they are indeed paying the utmost respect to the Filipino culture. There are of course a few exceptions to this, and I do understand the argument, just not the way that "they" go about getting their point across. As the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey, then you do with vinegar.

:asian: KenpoDragon

 

[moromoro]

.S. I actually might agree with moromoro on something here. That makes me want to kick my own @$$!

start kicking


thanks

terry

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by moromoro
start kicking


thanks

terry

:moon:

Or Kissin'!

 

[moromoro]

funny stuff where do you guys get those icons???

 

[Cruentus]

When you hit "reply" go to "smiles" on the left hand side of the screen. At the bottom, click on [get more], and you'll find 118 icons to choose from!

 

[Dave Fulton]

Originally posted by Kirk
Okay, my bad ... I was recently educated on the translations, so
excuse my choice of the words. What I meant though, was the
true combart martial arts of old China are practiced more in the U.S. than in China. Styles like Hung Gar, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc
are forbidden to be practiced in China (or so sayeth the
documentary I saw on the Discovery Channel). Since the traditional styles of combat martial arts were outlawed, WuShu
was developed. And then ... the rest of my previous post is still
a possibility.

Understood. However, I do not think that the traditional styles were made illegal by the State. If that were true then how does one explain the fact that families like the Chen family (Chen style Taijiquan) openly practice and teach? What the State did do, however, was to "re-educate", imprison or kill anyone who openly opposed the State and didn't leave the country. Martial artists tend to be strong willed, so a lot of them were pursecuted. Modern Wushu was developed for several reasons including, but not limited to, creating a national sport and developing strong, healthy and disciplined citizens, as well as aiding the State in undermining the influence of Traditional Wushu.

Just so that you know, I am basing the above on what I was told (as a youth) by my maternal grandfather, as well as his brother and sister, all of whom left the PRC. Add to that recollections of studies in Political Science from college.

Why am I being a pain in the butt here? Because the point being debated here is the origin of the word "kali" and the validity of it's current use in relation to FMA, as well as the propogation of FMA myths. Therefore, in my opinion, bringing to light the incorrect usage of "kung-fu" and correcting myths about CMA is appropriate.

It's interesting how, just with FMA and the term "kali", many Chinese Shifu use the term "kung-fu" simply because it has become the term, albeit an incorrect one, by which the public recognizes CMA.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

 

[moromoro]

It's interesting how, just with FMA and the term "kali", many Chinese Shifu use the term "kung-fu" simply because it has become the term, albeit an incorrect one, by which the public recognizes CMA.

well in the USA it is used a lot........ but in the philippines in cebu mindanao, zamboanga basilan and jolo where the word supposedly comes from no one knows what the hell it means......

KALI is not used much in the philippines arnis and eskrima are the terms used........

 

[moromoro]

for all those folk in this forum who like to use KALI and train KALI why dont you ask danny inosanto where he got the name from.... and the sopposed history behind it......

thanks

terry

 

[Dave Fulton]

Originally posted by moromoro
well in the USA it is used a lot........ but in the philippines in cebu mindanao, zamboanga basilan and jolo where the word supposedly comes from no one knows what the hell it means......

KALI is not used much in the philippines arnis and eskrima are the terms used........

Yes, I was refering to it's use in the USA. Sorry for not making that clear.

Dave Fulton.

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Everyone,

This thread has popped up all over the net and is now the soapbox issue!! So much conflict over the term "Kali", but does it really matter?

Clearly it is not a term frequently used in the Philippines. (in the context currently popular in the US and elsewhere) But, didn't Tatang Ilustrisimo, start to call his system Kali, after recognizing the marketing aspect of the term?(now the Bakbakan calls it Kalis Ilustrisimo) I do believe GT Gaje also changed his art from Pekiti Tirsia Arnis, to Pekiti Tirsia Kali as well, so the term is being used in the Philippines as well.

As for where it started: Guro Dan's book had a story in it about Floro Villabrille, and I believe many people started using the term from this source, as well as from Grand Master Floro himself, prior to the release of this book. I have also heard other stories from GT Gaje that is was a bastardization of various events in the hinterlands of the Philippines(Not a quote but fairly close)

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.
www.Sayoc.com
www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[moromoro]

after recognizing the marketing aspect of the term

yes yes yes its all about the marketing to american consumers...

but there is notthing wrong with the name its just the false history that comes with it....