Kali, Eskrima, or Arnis

J

Joe Eccleston

Guest
I have always thought that Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis were different Filipino martial arts, like Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kendo, etc. in Japan. Can anyone explain what is the difference with the titles and why people in the FMA community tend to argue about these terms? Thanks in advance.

I found the post below from www.balintawak.com forums.
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"First of all have you been to Panay or Negros? there is no point discussing things with you since you haven't been here, if you just base your facts with the university facts then you are limiting yourself."

I have visited Dumaguete and I have visited Sagay for an Anthropology symposium there, although this was 5 yrs ago.



"How many species of animals do you think are out there that science have not discovered but are living there lives for thousands of years, we don;t know maybe there are still tribes that are living somewhere that we don't know of."

Actually, all tribes around the world have been mapped out. Specific research about clans are now underway. In geography, the oceans and the lands have been mapped out. Of course, all mammals have been discovered. But, you are right about the smaller species.



"The point is you don't base your facts from other peoples research, as I have pointed out so many times our history have been twisted by the spaniards, like the bible, do you think that bible of ours now is the exact replica of the original one? is it not that constantine the great did a lot of disecting and twisting of it to suit his political ambitions....? "

I'm basing my facts on liguistics, which if you follow in Philippine academics is revamping new ideas and improving older theories. The languages in the Philippines is still quite alive. Some areas might lose certain words, but these words are found in other areas. The anthropology and history dept in UP (the harvard of your country no less) are making new strides in linguistics. If you claim that your grandfather used the word KALI to mean the original art of the Philippines, then why doesn't this word show up in other ethno-linguistic groups in your country?



"My grandfather is no longer around to tell you face to face about kali, if you don't believe it's up to you, you said that kali came to america because of villaabril and Inosanto then that is one proof that it exists, there are things that are lost in written form but are alive in our culture and are told only by word of mouth, now if you are really looking for a rosetta stone that could verify your theory then dig for it as long as you live! "

Inosanto says he just mixed up KAmut and LIhok (words in Bisaya) to get Kali. Much like his MAPHILINDO. if Kali is a cultural phenomena, then why can't your own filipino anthropologists and linguists locate this word anywhere in the Philippines?



"but to say that it does not exist is a big mistake, don't genralize things before you have not exhausted all the angles of posibilities, like the t rex dinosaur is it not that a century ago scientist made general statements of this and that, and a century later de ja vu they found one set of new t rex bones somewhere in africa and changed the whole scientific theory! so better be careful of your theories especially if you are trying to make statements against family things, just as what you said that my grandfather just made up the kali word is a personal insult on my part..."

It wasn't insult, I was just simply using logic. If your grandfather did use the word Kali for your art, then you should've used this word from the very beginning, prior to NARAPHIL. Why the switch, when you came to america, then the re-switching afterwards? And how do you explain all the Spanish words present in your system?



"About the kali kalihan festival in salvador Benedicto you said that they just made it up when they read Inosanto's book, my god where in the hell did you get that?"

Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true.



"did you know that the town of Salvador Benedicto was still un accessible in the 1970's? and the people who live there are called the pulahan tribes did you know that? bet you did not now you know better put that in your research notebook..."

the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation.



"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat,"

There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted.



"so where in the hell can these people read about inosantos book these people don't even know any dan inosanto! they live way up in the mountain, I'm just wondering who is that stupid @#%$ researcher who told you that, you better check on your facts before believing it.if you want to find kali customs and traditions then tell me I would be happy to accompany you there to see for your self, than sit in your computer and insult other people."

There is no need to re-check the Inosanto connection since we already know it was in fact you, having political connections in that municipality, who named it kalikalihan.



"About that arnis and escrima in new york I was appointed by General Fabian Ver to be the head of the Naraphil, and arnis was the one that General ver adopted, in support for that I was obliged to name my organization arnis escrima, but after the disentigration of Naraphil I had my kali since that was what my grandfather taught me to."

So, to recap.. You are saying that your grandfather did call his art Kali? and this is what he has called it since his grandfather's time and so on?



"have you noticed those so called grandmasters who adulterated the Filipino martial art? you see we still believe that our great forefathers are still guarding this ancient art and had made it sacred, maybe they are in spirit now but we still believe that they are the guardians of this art of kali."

I've also done research in Mindanao. and you are right, the blade is still very much a part of their culture there. This is also true for some tribes in Nothern Luzon. the fact that the Philippines has a pretty sophisticated fighting arts isn't my contention here. it is the title Kali and its origin. For the sake of research, I want to write a complete rendering of your people's arts (this has been done for Japanese martial arts, Indonesian, and I know fellow doing research about India's fighting arts). So far all reference to this word KALI has taken me back to the US. I have yet to find Kali in any of your nation's ethno-linguistic groups. but, I do have alot of conjectures that relate to the origin of this word (i.e. Kali is a Hindu Goddess, which is silly because the Philippines was never hindu. Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in Mindanao, or Luzon, and I'm pretty sure they do not use it in the Bisayas. I have already offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.

I cannot write a book and say, Mr. Gaje, Mr. Inosanto (who has never visited the Philippines) and Mr. Largusa (himself a Filipino-American), say that Kali is the ancient mother art of the Philippines--It must be so. This would greatly affect my status as a researcher. I am not like other researchers who have come before, regurgitating information word for word from those who he has interviewed. I actually have an academic background from your country, and I have many friends there that I love. I love your nation, and this is why I am badgering you for the truth. If you feel offended, this is natural because I'm taking all that you've held true and subjecting them to questions you've never asked yourself. But, the final outcome of this research will speak fairly of the Filipino Warrior Arts for the generation of filipinos to come. Which is why i'm doing this.

After we've subjected this word Kali and bombarded it with all possible attacks, if this title is legitimate then it will stand by itself. We wouldn't have to rely on "my grandfather used it, trust me, this is why it's true" evidence. Because i'm sure you already know, this is not academic.

Again, I look forward to meeting you sir, to hash out further the origins of the Filipino martial arts and its history.
 
thanks, arnisador!

i take it this is already Old News in this forum? sorry, for the repeat...
 
continued from the same site, thought it very informative in addition to the above links i've been given:




"so there you are, is it not remote to think that some families or a group of people have preserved their own knowledge and customs and traditions?"


You are correct on this, sir. But, you’ve claimed that "Kali" is the name of the "ancient art of the Philippines". So, this is not a "family" or "group" martial art anymore. If Kali is indeed the "mother art of the Philippines", then we should also be able to come across this title in other regions and among other ethnic groups. Thus far only a very few people in the Philippines refer to their arts as Kali. Of course, the bigger FMA franchises have adopted this term (although they cannot explain its origin). Why, for example, is Kali not found in Mindanao and Luzon? (although there is Kalirongan, but as I’ve explained before KA (is the prefix) lirong (is the root word) and –AN (is the suffix)




"you said that villabrile mentioned kali in his art, they were the first migrants of filipino workers in Hawaii, now you claim that this people in the 1920's made up kali? "


Yes, the villabrille-largusa school uses KALI. I’m in contact with this group. So far, their instructors in California have not really explained Kali as well. Villabrille himself used ‘eskrima’ and ‘arnis’. Yet, it was Largusa who popularized the term Kali. Villabrille, a relative of the Illustrisimos of Bantayan Island, Cebu, switched from using ‘eskrima’ to Kali only in the 50s, which connects to Mr. Yambao’s book published in the 1950s in which he mentions the word "kali". Since Mr. Yambao was from a region in the Philippines which used "Kalirongan", there is a big chance that Kali is just a truncated version of this word. the Villabrille school have been kind enough to refer me to the island of Kaui to seek more information about the Kali connection with their school.





"if this person mentioned it in the 1920's then there is something or a grain of truth about it, remember there was no other fma in america that would create the so called politics, those migrant workers went to hawaii to work in the pineapple plantations and not to earn money in teaching fma, they had brought with them their knowledge and customs and traditions, just as your multi racial immigrants brought theres to america. "


The documented use of the word Kali with this group dates to the 50s only. I’m still trying to research, whether in the 1920s and 30s the word Kali was used in Hawaii by Villarbrille. In contrast, I have interviewed several Filipino-American soldiers in California and Washington, who have fought with the 1st and 2nd Filipino Regiments in WWII. I’ve also interviewed some who were from the bolo/guerilla battalions in the Philippines. None have heard of Kali, although they are familiar with eskrima, arnis, pangamut, panantukan, etc. etc.




"there is no basis that this people would make up stories because they want to make a financial empire out of fma, just as some so called grandmasters are doing now, making up things claim as their own and make money out of it."


But you are one of these "grandmasters making a financial empire out of FMA", are you not? The biggest Filipino schools are Presas’ Modern Arnis, Canete’s Doce Pares, and your Pekiti Tersia (actually you are the biggest among these three since you are directly connected to the Philippine Gov’t). And then there are the American based schools, like Sayoc, Villabrille-Largusa, Inosanto-Lacoste blend, etc etc… How are you different from these "financial empires"?





"Now there are things that are kept within the family, just as fma techniques and styles are closely guarded secrets, my late uncle Teodorico Tortal did not talk to me for 2 years because I started teaching the family art. Now if you are looking for these things in books and from our heroes, is it not that these people were our model of principles? for sure if they had one in the family, they would not talk about since they are bound with an oath."


Yes, I am familiar with family arts, handed down thru generations. But, your art is the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". So, this means we should be able to see it in other groups and regions in the Philippines.








"Just like the voodoo and spell that we have in the Philippines, yes documentaries have been done films have been shown about it, but have you found a "published book " that was printed showing and teaching all the encantations of the black magic world, of course not! unless you become a disciple and be a member of the inner core of practitioners then you can get hold of one.

I saw one documentary in National geographic, a search for solomons mines, they tried to extract information from priests, sects leaders and had maps and physical evidence as well as historical records as basis for tracing the where abouts of it even the trade routes they try and analyzed it, but at the end what they got was a hypothesis that, that place could be"not confirmed" place of solomons mines! know why? because those who had proofs hesitate or WOULD NOT TALK so what can you get? how can you prove it?"


Yes, I understand that there are secrets that cannot be known by outsiders. But, the fact that people have read about and known about "solomon’s mines" is the basis of my argument. If something is big, people will know. The details might not be available, but the general nature of the claim will be known. For example, Kali is the ancient mother art. This is your claim. Because it is ancient and people have handed it down for generations, then we should expect some people to atleast be familiar with this title. I would understand that the specifics would be hidden. But, the opposite instead is true with Kali. People have never heard of it (in the Philippines), yet if you tell them about your techniques and weapons, people will be familiar. When you say baston, daga, punyo, florete, etc. people are familiar, but when you say Kali, people become less familiar. So, your analogy with voodoo or magic isn’t really similar with the whole Kali phenomena, because this phenomena is the exact opposite.






"So if we put it in the the position of kali, first of all I claim that kali is a philosophy as well a martial art. did you know how many historical artifacts and books that we lost during the Spanish era? have you realized that?"


Yes, I realize that much information have been lost, but not all. If you say, the title Kali has been passed down in your familiy through generations, then why can’t you offer a tighter explanation? Every martial art term, in any art, has an origin. When you say punyo, we can say it’s spanish for the butt of the sword. When you say wing chun, tae kwon do, karate, krav maga, judo, eskrima, arnis, pangamut, etc etc… we can all trace these terms to a meaning and where that meaning came from. This isn’t true for Kali. Kali by itself doesn’t mean anything in any Filipino dialects. This is the reason you fall on conjectures, when you try to explain its origin. This is why you say it’s from the Goddess Kali (is this what your grandfather said?), or the word is found in the word Kalinaw, Kalipay, Kalibanga', or that people in the NPA call each other Ka’ (this stands for kasama by the way, which is comrade). These are all conjectural tangents. also, I have spoken to a relative of yours who carry the name Dekiti-Tersia. Both of you hail from the same family style, yet both have two completely different versions of your art’s title. Because according to him, the Tortals have alsways used eskrima or arnis, Kali is something new introduced by you. I understand that he or you could be wrong, but the fact that there is this big difference in title, sparks one’s curiousity.





"one of those could be a book about kali, just as in our history books tells of the barangay form of government which came from the word balangay which discribes a big boat or raft that was used by early malay migrants in migrating to our islands, these was confirmed and authenticated when in the 1980's a raft was discovered was dug in mindanao."


If this word Kali has been lost then how did you or your family come to use it? If your answer is that it’s been passed down through the generations, then why can’t you provide its etymology and it’s meaning. When I say meaning, I do not mean merely saying, "Kali is a philosophy of the ancient Filipino warriors". When I say meaning and origin, I mean for example: wing chun came from the name of it’s originator, or eskrima is the filipinized spanish word to mean fencing, pangamut comes from kamut or hand in Bisaya, and they mean this... etc.





"Is it not that some of our cultures are left by the word of mouth? the martial arts in ancient time was not a political or a commercial trade, it was only practiced by a few and only handed down with in the family, it will take you strength and courage and persiverance to be adopted within ones family and be taught the art if you are an outsider, so rules are strict and codes of conduct are preserved, honor was the conduct of the day. ATMOST SECRECY IS THE RULE!"


Yes, by word of mouth. Information is transferred by word of mouth or in writing. If you claim that Kali is transferred thru word of mouth, then why can’t you explain its origin and meaning? The word kali is not a secret anymore, yet you still cannot offer a sufficient answer about its origin and meaning.






"That is why I said that there are things that you cannot find in books, or just in everday life, go to Siquijor, the island known as the black magik capital of the philippines and talk about hiring somebody to do a black magik or voodoo demonstration for you see if somebody will do it, they will just laugh at you, yeah maybe one will say ok I will do it for a fee, but do you think you will get the original? I don't think so these things are best kept secret not advertised in the yellow pages, unless you have an intermediary who is really a reliable one then you can get to the heart of it, so if you are just like those backpacking white guys that goes around interviewing people with a camera and pencil and paper and digging past research in libraries then forget it. if that was what you did then you were all the while barking on the wrong trees for so long!"


This is true. But you will pick up words like Hilot, Barang, Mananambal, Arbolario, Lanag, Orasyones, and Antin-anting. I learn of all these in Siquijor Island. Granted I wasn’t able to find out the specific details of these occult arts but the overall concept and meaning are available, although the secret details aren’t. But the opposite is true for Kali. We can’t figure out the meaning of this word, the general concept/title, but once you go inside your art words like espada, daga, fondo, abecedaria, florete, etc are very familiar since they are the same words used in eskrima and arnis.





"practicioners of the real art are not after being concernerned of coming out on films and tv's they die with their techniques and honor!"


But, you are on film, the internet, tv, newspaper, magazine, and radio. And you have taught your techniques to europeans, asians, and americans.




"if you are looking for that ethno linguistic connection then what are we? are we not ilonggos an ethnic group? "


Yes, but why aren't other Ilongos, at the very least, familiar with this term?



"villabrile where did he came from? is he not a member of an ethnic group too? "


Yes, he is cebuano. But no other cebuanos use this term. Although his cousin Illustrisimo, uses the word Kalis for his art. But, he doesn’t say it’s the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". His Kalis is related to Keris the sword in Mindanao, since he learned most of his art in Zamboanga.





"as I have said fma a long time ago was not for everyone it was a close knit group of people so you cannot just find it anywhere, just like you go to a supermarket and dept store and get everthing, or just talking to common people and find everthing, and to do statistics what do you think would be the percentage of people doing fma before compared to the population itself, coming in to terms the rigidity of the training and the strictness of discipline? so it is not remote that these things become extinct as the time passes and only a few survived the onslaught of time, if insects become extinct when there are millions of them you think it is remote that the Philosophy of kali had the same fate too?"


If the "philosophy of Kali" was extinct, how did you or your family come to rediscover it. And why can’t you explain the meaning of Kali and its origin?








"So what's the big deal? does that make kali any different? you are just trying to be political, in the first place kali pertains to a philosophy and martial art while arnis and escrima is only a name of an fma martial art. when I wanted to invoke the philosphical part of the art, I cannot say escrima and arnis have philosophies since they are just merely names of fma given by the spaniards. so I have to go back to the original roots which I owe my grandfather everything I know and the philosophy he had implanted on me."


You can’t really say that your cliche expression "we choose life not death" is a philosophy. This is common sense, anybody would choose life over death. It is basic human survival instinct. And you can’t really say eskrima and arnis are without philosophy. When you say this, you’re saying that the WWII veterans I have spoken to, who have wielded their bolos and swords in actual combat in the Philippines, have no philosophy because they were not familiar with the title "Kali".





"As I have said, we were under the spanish rule for 333 years to be exact try and count how many generations could fit in that number?, is it not remote that the spanish words had it's influence on the terminologies? as you said language is evolving, so is it not possible that through time terms had evolved and all that was left was the original philosophy and the techniques."


Again, why can’t you provide a better explanation of this title? If you say that this word has evolved since, then we should still be able to figure out its meaning, like the words Hilot, Barang, Lanag, Anito. These are all pre-spanish words by the way, yet many filipinos are familiar with these terms, although not its details.







"Now that is the problem you base your facts from other peoples research, I think you misunderstood what I mean the pulahan tribe that I was talking about was the pulahan that PAPA ISIO headed in the town of Isio south of negros island. they were originaly called karul-an they were separated from the lowlanders, they had their own form of government and set of beliefs and customs and traditions, when the spanish came and tried to envade them they declared themselves independent so the the spanish regime masaccred the tribe but few survived and migrated to other places , but brought with them their own set of beleifs and customs and traditions later on as time passed by, they integrated with the pulahan that you are talking about and so they were known in time as the pulahan. And the remnants of these are still in Salvador Benedicto.The old name of Salvador Benedicto is Igmayaan."


Basing your initial research on other people’s research is what you’re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it’s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you’ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning?





"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"

"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? "


Yes it is political, if the populace didn’t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you.






"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? To honor ones past glorious days? no amount of money could compensate for ones beliefs and principles, That is why Japan is lucky in terms of their cultural heritage, for they have preserved the Samurai and the bushido even though maybe just maybe none is left of this so called samurai warriors, or maybe because no Spaniard colonizer have set foot on their islands! to adulterate everything!"


But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art’s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.)










"you say Phil. was never hindu now do you also mean that Phil. had never had any trading relations with India? How come we still call our teacher in tagalog Guro?"


I’m not saying there’s no Indian influence. We all know of the Vishayan empire. But, to make an assumption that Kali refers to the hindu goddess is somewhat of a stretch, because Hindu as a religion never really established itself in the Philippines. If it did then we should also see the Gods, Shiva, Ganesh, etc etc of Hindu represented. It is fairly common for cultures to borrow words from others, but it is unheard of for names of Gods to be borrowed without actual religious conquers. Examples of religious conquerings are the Moros of Mindanao, there is plenty of Arabic liturgical terms present because there was an actual Islamic foothold in this region, this was never true for Hindu. another would be the Spanish catholicization. Further, saying Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish in origin, and that this is the reason Kali is used, because it is Indian, is not logical. Because Kali would still be just another conqueror’s term, much like the Spanish eskrima and arnis.





"and we have documented writings which originated from the sanskrit?we did not read that in inosantos book! and don't you know that most some of the voodoo spells have indian words on them? so where did we get that maybe you can tell me or explain that to me. Look for the katipunan flag what is that letter in the middle? it's sanskrit in origin that is the letter K."


I have yet to have read this about actual sanskrit writings in the Philippines. When you say actual sanskrit, you are referring to the writing system in India. Many scholars have compared the Baybayin alphabets to actual sanskrit Alphabets, and although there are stylistic similarities, they are totally different. The K in sanskrit does not look anything like the K in Baybayin, the filipino alphabet on the Katipunan flag.






Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.


"So is it not queer? that most of these words have kali as a root word?"


As I’ve explained, "Kali" is not the root of these words you keep bringing up. Linog, linaw and lipay are the roots, earthquake, calm and happy. When you add the prefix KA, it becomes an abstract concept. This is basic filipino grammar. Kalibang means diarhea in bisaya. Libang is the act of taking a crap. So, "kali" is not the root. To make connections into these syllables would also be to say that California and Calistenics and the town Calisco in Mexico are related to the "ancient Philippine martial arts".




"so that tells you something do more research and more diggings one day you might stumble on a rosetta stone and find something, the fact that these words have kali as the root word…"


Kali as I have explained is not the root. Ka is merely a prefix in the words you’ve mentioned.




"I suggest you learn their dialect and maybe you could find one, since I think the one that you talked to are all professors and academic people, why not learn the dialect itself of ethnic tagbanuas, tibolis, bilaans,etc. and live with them for years it could open windows of oppurtunity to you then you might find what you are looking for."


And this is what I, along with other researchers, are doing. Instead of relying on conjectures and empty rhetoric, and collections of cliches, we are trying to figure out the origins of these cultural phenomenons in the Philippines. On a side note, one of the anthropology Phd candidates in UP that I contact regularly in matters of terminology is himself T’boli from Mindanao. And I have asked him about Kali in his culture, and he informed me that this word is just not found among his people. Hopefully, I can do more research. But, there is still so much to learn about your nation.





"Anyway the research profession is a big, those that you refered to are just human beings that are fallable, they could commit errors why not do it yourself and do what they have done, maybe you could find something that they had missed out who knows right?"


Well this is what I’m doing, sir. I’m using the information already gained by others, and from them I am making my own discoveries and conclusions into the origins of Filipino martial arts and other cultural realities. the is the academic process. exactly, because people are "fallable", this is the reason we have to keep on comparing facts and theories and providing evidence for everything we claim. With your help and others, I will be able to write a complete account. I don’t want to follow what other researchers of Filipino martial arts have done, we both know that the written works thus far are great examples of mediocre research. So, please bare with me and we will get to the bottom of this. Thank you once again.


http://pub9.ezboard.com/fexxeslogikfrm9.showMessage?topicID=45.topic
 
I find the arguement quite humorous, to say the least.

Ancient names? There were no names!
The one thing that all opinions seem to generally forget is that the Filipino Martial Arts were outlawed by the spanish, and therefore went undergound. With the conquering of the spanish, most FMA's transformed from a tribal art that was used to protect the tribes from neighboring tribes (and consisted of more group fighting methods and long range weaponry) to a "street fighters" art with a more close quarter emphasis that had to be practiced in secrecy for a number of years. If there were any names at all to begin with, they were lost completely. The evidence that is available to me seems to point to the idea that the old way of naming your "martial art" would be to refer to the tribe, or family who created the art. In other words in ancient Filipines, my art wouldn't have a name per say, but it would be refered to as "This is the way we fight in the Janulis family" or "This is the way the we fight in the Rochester Michigan Tribe." There was no need to come up with a name because there was no marketing involved with the "martial arts" in the pre-spanish culture. You belonged to a tribe that had a particular way of defending itself; and if you were one of the tribal members who's responsability it would be to protect the tribe, then thats the fighting system you learned. There was no shopping around for instructors. You learned what your tribe did and if the system worked and you were good at it, then you and your tribe survived. Sort of a "Natural Selection" with the arts, if you will.

The need to change the description = the introduction of "names"
So I contest that there were descriptions, but no one "name" for "martial arts" as we have today to begin with (in the pre-spanish days). Now, when these tribal systems were banned under spanish rule, they had to come up with clever ways of continueing their tribal systems in secret. I couldn't say I was practicing a "fighting system" or I'd be in trouble. So, I had to come up with a code word that everyone could eventually recognize (except the spanish military). So now, we had a need to call it something, so we could disguise it as something else. This is how the use of the word "Arnis" to disguise their training as practicing for the moro-moro plays. Now, wanna bet that the some of the Spanish Military knew that some people were "up to no good" as they practiced these arts? You bet... and you can also bet that there was a need to come up with a name so the spanish soldiers and general community could recognize these outlawed acts. This is probably how "Eskrima" came about. "Eskrima" was just another name used, probably by the spanish first, to describe those who were training in these tribal arts.

Need change in the arts...from the tribal combat to the street!
The need for the martial arts also changed dramatically after the spanish conquest. Similar to our indiginous cultures in America (minus the genocide), instead of each tribal nation being a soviern entity, with each tribe needing to defend themselves over another, they were all now ruled by one nation against their will. There was actually a harmony with the tribal nations that was broken with the spanish rule. Instead of everyone being relatively safe within the tribes, and with agreements and disputes being worked out with neighboring tribes (whether through discussions, agreements among leaders, or war), you now had total chaos. The spanish didn't police the nation well, so it became sort of a "every man for himself" environment. So the need wasn't for defense of the tribe through your tribal army anymore; now the need was to defend yourself and family from your neighbors, Spanish soldiers, friends, thugs, or from anyone who might be around to do harm. Since I believe that "martial arts" were taught more as a nessecity and way of survival in the PI, once the need changed, so did the focus of the "martial art." If it wasn't for this need change, the arts wouldn't have survived at all. They have, but you can bet that no art that exists today immulates EXACTLY what was taught during the pre-spanish days. Because of the ban, and the fact that practicing tribal arts could give you a death sentence, the only martial arts that could have survived are the ones that were absolutely needed. So you can bet that although there are probably elements of these tribal systems...they have all been transformed and are not exactly the same as the tribal arts.

A more Modern focus; the introduction of cultural pride and marketing tactics.
Now, the focus is changed once again, because the "martial arts" is one of the few ways that a war torn country like the PI can preserve its old tribal culture. There is great cultural pride in the FMA, which is why many of these arguements over "names" start, and why many challange matches were fought. Since the focus has changed and there is more pride involved in these arts, "names" have now become important to many people. So you have many arguements now over the issue. You have some of the "Kali" people claiming that their arts are the more ancient methods, so they named it the more ancient name, which is not true. Or, you have the Arnis people claiming that the Eskrima people have borrowed more techniques from the Spanish (going against the whole cultural pride thing) on the basis that the name is more "Spanish sounding", which is a joke because both names "Eskrima" and "Arnis" are mutations from spanish words. It turns out that because of this pride and recent marketing need, there seems to be a lot of posturing going on with these names. None of it matters.

The Origins of the names...if you REALLY want to know
The orgins of the names "Arnis" and "Eskrima" are fairly well known. Arnis was a mutation from the spanish word "arnes," which ment "harness" as in breast plate armor that was worn during "moro-moro" plays; the plays that disguised their training during the spanish rule. "Eskrima" was a mutation from the word "escaramuza" which ment "skirmish." There are theories on how this one came about, but one can assume that the Spanish used the word eskrima to describe the training in these illegal fighting arts.

The orgins of "Kali" is where there is some confusion, as "kali" isn't really found in the old dialects. Because the only written record of the word was referenced in the 1950's, then was propigated further in america, people assume that the name Kali was introduced in the 1950's. Maybe so, but maybe not. This might not be nessecarily true to assume because, for one, the name "kali" certianly came from somewhere. And, as it turns out many indonesian words use "Kali" in their dialects; usually within other words. Some of these words have references going back to india and the hindu religion, to describing varioius martial styles, such as tjakali and other forms of Silat. There is even some sanskrit with the words "Kali" that have been found (at least this claim has been made, but I haven't varified it myself). So, the name came from somewhere, but none of the orgins point to the idea that "Kali" was a more ancient name for Filipino martial arts. It would be wrong to assume that someone who studies "Kali" is getting a "more ancient" system then someone else. It would also be wrong to assume that if a system uses the word "kali" that they are somehow doing a "bastardized" or "americanized" version of the art.

hmmm...lets not argue...lets comprimise!
Now some try to curb the argements by saying that the words apply to different regions, but that they are all the same. This is a very intelligent arguement because as a whole, it is true. Just like I use the word "pop" to describe soft drinks here in the midwest, someone down south may use the word "coke." Someone in one region today may say "arnis" while another "kali" or "eskrima." However, despite the truth in this arguement, it would be false to assume that these names have anything to do with the content of the arts, or with the orgins of these arts any more then what I call my softdrink has anything to do with its contents. Just like mutations and word usage develop regionally in any culture, that only speaks of the origins of the words.

Conclusion - it doesn't matter!
Bottom line is this - there was no one name for the FMA prior to the spanish conquest, during the spanish rule, or after the spanish rule. Furthermore, the names that we use today (outside of maybe family names) have only been commonly used within the last 150 years or so, despite when these names were invented or who/what culture invented them. And lastly, the names have very little to do with the content of the arts themselves. The relationship to the word "eskrima" and the individual art itself is akin to the relationship to the word "Japanese Martial art" and the individual art.

This is why I think that the heated arguements over the issue are so humorous. People gaurd their convictions so dearly, when these convictions have little to do with the content of the arts themselves.

PAUL
 
I agree that there is a lot of unecessary static caused over the use of names. Filipinos are linguistically ingenious. The goal of language is to communicate and so to the Filipino it doesn't matter what language you have to use to get the idea across as long as you get the idea across. In the Philippines everybody speaks at least 2 languages. They probably know 3 or 4 and are able to understand many words and phrases from several other languages. It really is a non-issue whether someone uses Kali or Arnis or Eskrima except for when it is claimed to be the mother art. Then it can rankle some people because it is a way for someone to put down another's art. Or rather some people may take it that way and then the questioning of the term begins and the truth is, the explanation of the origin of Kali as a word falls apart when linguistic and academic proof is sought for. Either way, currently in the Philippines it is generally thought to be the American word for Arnis or Eskrima.

My second point comes in argument of the banning of the FMA by the Spanish. The Spanish conquered in the same way that the English conquered India. They had a military presence, but they ruled through the existing social structure which became westernized over time. The Spanish did not ban Eskrima all across the islands. As a matter of fact they used the detestable method of using one tribe to quell the rebellion of another as a regular practice. The Spanish saved the guns for themselves and the Filipinos fought hand to hand with bolos and spears and sticks and knives. In the late 18th and early 19th century they began to issue the Filipinos guns as well. But I have to ask this question: How can the Spanish have banned the art when they forced Filipinos to fight each other with it on a regular basis? They relied on the power of the local leaders to maintain the colonial structure and over time they became "Hispanized".

This proposed ban is used a lot to defend the lack of substancial evidence as to the origin of the word "Kali" but it is truly a fiction and dishonors the memories of the people who fought and died in those internal struggles.
 
bart said:
This proposed ban is used a lot to defend the lack of substancial evidence as to the origin of the word "Kali" but it is truly a fiction and dishonors the memories of the people who fought and died in those internal struggles.
Click to expand...

I think you might be speaking hastily by saying that a weapons ban was fiction.

The Spanish occupied the PI for abour 333 years. They colonized in 1565, and weren't kicked out until 1898, where a war immediately followed with the U.S.. I think that early on the Spanish did use the existing social cultures to rule in the beginning, turning tribe against tribe. So, I believe this is correct. But as you said, "they became westernized over time." The Spanish had a few 100 years to try to gradually turn the PI into another Spain. By the 1800's, the social structure of the tribes was fairly well transformed from what they were, as would have been any martial art that was studied. Since the tribes did not have the same identity in the 1800's as they did in the 1500's, particularly when trade opened up in 1814, its safe to say that by this time most intertribal fighting was pretty well over and done with. The breakdown of the tribal structure (meaning less intertribal fighting) brought the Spanish at risk for a rebellion. Instead of fighting each other, the Filipinos could pact together to take their country back. The Spanish were very paranoid about a rebellion after foriegn trade opened in 1814, so it was around this time that they started imposing some pretty oppressive laws and policy to try to further clamp down on the PI people. This was how weapons banning in some areas, and banning of martial arts materialized. Basically, if you were practicing martial arts, then you must be planning a rebellion. This came to a head in 1872 with the Cavit Rebellion, where secret trials and executions were held, and many Filipinos were killed who were suspect of being a rebel, including those who practiced filipino martial arts.

This was how it went, as I understand it. To answer your question, "How could the Spanish have banned the art when they forced Filipinos to fight each other on a regular basis?" I think its because they were coherced into fighting early on, and the ban's were placed later after the breakdown of the tribal social structure and opening of trade, coming to a head during the rebellions.

Because this seems to be the history, I don't think that it "dishonors" the early tribal people who were involved in conflict to say that there was a ban on FMA during the 1800's. I could rightfully make the same arguement by saying that it dishonors the memory of those who had to work hard to carry on Filipino culture and FMA during a time when westernization was forced, and FMA were forced into secrecy.

:asian:
 
Paul, you do know your history, which I must commend you on. A lot of people accept what people tell them but don't do any research and it is clear that you've gone beyond the call of duty, and I respect that. I still believe that the ban of FMA was a fiction inspired by the ban on metal weapons imposed on the Okinawans. You don't hear anything about it until the emergence of martial arts culture in Hawaii in the 1940's and 1950's. My contention is that it had to do with marketing or legitimizing the FMA by giving it a similarity to a "legitimate" martial art.

You are right that the Philippines suffered under deep oppression in the 19th century. But Spain itself went through a several economic and political hiccups that left it unable to pay enough to keep the Philippines under it's grip. The Spanish were unable to man the place with Peninsulares and so they relied more heavily on Filipino regiments than they ever did before. Every single one of the rebellions or revolts in the Philippines in the 19th century was fought by Filipinos on both sides and until the Revolution in 1896 was suppressed by Filipinos in the employ of the Spanish through the existing political heirarchy. There is even a statistic that says that there were only around 8,000 Spanish soldiers in the entire Philippines at various times. They had to have collaborative help from Filipinos. Even the Cavite uprising in 1872 was composed of 200 odd military dockworkers who killed their officers. They were suppressed by an army of nearly 6,000 of which only a handful of officers were Spanish.

These are just a few of the more famous military occurances in the 19th Century Philippines:

1835 Rebellion in Cavite led by Feliciano Páran.
1844 Claveria's expedition against the Moros.
1854 Rebellion of Cuesta.
1872 Cavite Uprising
1876 Malcampo's expedition against the Moros to annex Jolo.
1887 Terrero's expedition against the Moro Datto Utto.
1895 The Marahui campaign against the Moros of Mindanao Island.
1896 Philippine Rebellion


Tribal warfare had died down in a sense but it was replaced with ethnic distrust and there was still the linguistic barrier which wasn't really conquered until the American compulsory use of the English language. The Philippines did go through a great deal of modernization in the 19th century which does add to your theory of the transition from battlefield to street tactics.

I still contend that the ban on eskrima by the Spanish did not occur as has been taught. For sure it was banned for some in particular places and times. The art may have thinned out in some areas simply because guns became the weapon of choice and required much less training. The Spanish used eskrimadors to help rule the country and could not have suppressed it with a total ban and been able to govern the country as they did.
 
This is all very informative. I wanted to ask another question that relates to Kali.

Are you guys familiar with all the groups or schools that use the name Kali? (i.e. Sayoc Kali, Inosanto-Lacoste Kali, etc etc) and how they are all related to each other?
 
bart said:
Paul, you do know your history, which I must commend you on. A lot of people accept what people tell them but don't do any research and it is clear that you've gone beyond the call of duty, and I respect that. I still believe that the ban of FMA was a fiction inspired by the ban on metal weapons imposed on the Okinawans. You don't hear anything about it until the emergence of martial arts culture in Hawaii in the 1940's and 1950's. My contention is that it had to do with marketing or legitimizing the FMA by giving it a similarity to a "legitimate" martial art.

You are right that the Philippines suffered under deep oppression in the 19th century. But Spain itself went through a several economic and political hiccups that left it unable to pay enough to keep the Philippines under it's grip. The Spanish were unable to man the place with Peninsulares and so they relied more heavily on Filipino regiments than they ever did before. Every single one of the rebellions or revolts in the Philippines in the 19th century was fought by Filipinos on both sides and until the Revolution in 1896 was suppressed by Filipinos in the employ of the Spanish through the existing political heirarchy. There is even a statistic that says that there were only around 8,000 Spanish soldiers in the entire Philippines at various times. They had to have collaborative help from Filipinos. Even the Cavite uprising in 1872 was composed of 200 odd military dockworkers who killed their officers. They were suppressed by an army of nearly 6,000 of which only a handful of officers were Spanish.

These are just a few of the more famous military occurances in the 19th Century Philippines:

1835 Rebellion in Cavite led by Feliciano Páran.
1844 Claveria's expedition against the Moros.
1854 Rebellion of Cuesta.
1872 Cavite Uprising
1876 Malcampo's expedition against the Moros to annex Jolo.
1887 Terrero's expedition against the Moro Datto Utto.
1895 The Marahui campaign against the Moros of Mindanao Island.
1896 Philippine Rebellion


Tribal warfare had died down in a sense but it was replaced with ethnic distrust and there was still the linguistic barrier which wasn't really conquered until the American compulsory use of the English language. The Philippines did go through a great deal of modernization in the 19th century which does add to your theory of the transition from battlefield to street tactics.

I still contend that the ban on eskrima by the Spanish did not occur as has been taught. For sure it was banned for some in particular places and times. The art may have thinned out in some areas simply because guns became the weapon of choice and required much less training. The Spanish used eskrimadors to help rule the country and could not have suppressed it with a total ban and been able to govern the country as they did.
Click to expand...
The 8000 Spanish is one of the reason the Good Ole U.S.A. went in in 1898 during the Spanish American War, and defeated the Spanish Fleet, and gave the USA 'Control' of the PI.

Thank You for this post
 
I still contend that the ban on eskrima by the Spanish did not occur as has been taught. For sure it was banned for some in particular places and times. The art may have thinned out in some areas simply because guns became the weapon of choice and required much less training. The Spanish used eskrimadors to help rule the country and could not have suppressed it with a total ban and been able to govern the country as they did.
Click to expand...

Ah...I agree with you there that the ban probably did not occur as the myth goes.

I believe that what was going on during this time period wasn't a law banning "martial arts" per say, but more of a policy against rebels and what would be considered rebel behavior. If you were a rebel, you risked execution without any due process. I think that if you weren't working for the Spanish government, and you were practicing eskrima, then you were probably at risk of being accused of being a rebel. This is how the myth of the moro-moro play came about. If anyone asked what you were doing while you practiced, or why your were practicing fighting, I'm guessing that back then you'd better say something clever or you could be accused of being a rebel.

Now as far as policing the country goes, Spain definatily had to recruit Filipinos to do their dirty work. You make a good point regarding that. However, we can't assume that these recruits were eskrimadors, I don't think. They would have had some level of compensation, training, and supplies provided by the Spanish Government. I also believe that they would have had guns. Being able to enforce laws by the gun takes away the need to become proficient in eskrima to a degree. Then there is the issue of how the Spanish and non-eskrimador peers would feel if you were practicing and training in Eskrima; they might accuse you of being a traitor. And, I doubt that the civilian eskrimadors who had to mask what they were doing would be wlecoming to train anyone working for the Spanish government; so its doubtful that they would have been training together if the particular soldier did any training in the indiginous arts at all. Despite all of this, there could have been some Eskrimadors who were hired by Spain; that we don't know for sure, and the possability can't be ruled out. However, I think to say that they could practice their indigenous arts openly because they were working for the Spanish Government would be overstating things.

I think the bottom line is that during the 19th century Indiginous martial arts were probably considered rebel behavior, and the practice of these arts could mean your execution. So, to a degree I think these arts did have to move "underground" during this time period, even though obviously they weren't completely lost or we wouldn't have these arts today.

What I'd like to find is a source that could tell me how prevelent firearms were in the PI during the 19th century. I doubt that every Filipino working for Spain could carry one, but I'd like to see a source that alludes to how scarce they were (or were not). I'd also like to see what the Spainish laws were regarding rebel behavior as it applies to the PI in the 19th century. These would be some interesting things to look at.

PAUL
 
Joe Eccleston said:
This is all very informative. I wanted to ask another question that relates to Kali.

Are you guys familiar with all the groups or schools that use the name Kali? (i.e. Sayoc Kali, Inosanto-Lacoste Kali, etc etc) and how they are all related to each other?
Click to expand...

As far as the name "Kali" goes, they are not related. They may be related in other ways that I don't know about, but none of these relations have anything to do with the name "Kali."

That was the one thing that I noticed people who are getting started in FMA have a hard time understanding. Any similarities or differences in various arts have little to do with the name Kali, Arnis, or Eskrima. You almost have to think of all the terms meaning the same thing. Just like a soft drink could be called "pop" in one area, "Soda" in another, and "Coke" in another; the meaning is all the same. That's why I find the arguements over the terms by people who don't understand them humourous. One person saying that Kali is better then Eskrima is like me saying that "pop" is better then "soda."

PAUL
 
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