now i am pissed off

Well, well.....now there is a different take on things!

Thanks for the input; I am sure it will enlighten many.

Also, although people are quick to fling crap on the net, no one here has taken it upon themselves to "Thank" the Soyac Kali group for getting FMA into the limelight a little. At least not here, anyways.

So I'll be the first. As a Filipino Martial Artist, I would like to thank all of the Sayoc Kali people who helped give the Filipino Arts some exposure. You have done a great thing for the arts!

:D
 
Rafael,

Thanks for the diligent research and very informative post. It thoroughly answered a question that I had posed a couple of days ago regarding the name of the Art and its history.

BTW the choreography rocked!


Thanks,

Allain Atienza
atienzakali.com
:D
 
For people who don't know him Rafael Kayanan is, in addition to being a first rate martial artist, and a damn talented regular artist , a very devoted historian of the FMA and all things Filipino. We are fortunate to have his commentary here.

Chad

PS
Allain, welcome aboard as well!
 
Tuhon Rafael,

Excellent post and a job well done to both you and Tuhon Kier on the Hunted.

Harold (Palusut)
IMAF, Inc
NC State Rep for Ray Dionaldo's FCS-Kali
 
Thanks everyone.

I hope my post will help move things forward and is accepted with the positive tone for which it was intended.

I never had any issues against kuntawman on other forums outside of this one post. We just felt that this one post's accusations were unfounded and untrue. I only wish him and his students well in their studies of the arts.

Gumagalang (another Sanskrit based word ),

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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Sun-Helmet, a question on history.

When did the Sulu warriors drive out the Majahapit empire? What source are you quoting from? I must confess I never heard that one before, and if there is a reference book that Ive missed Id like to find it.
 
Federico,
Just reread my post and found that in the rush, that particular sentence may have been worded improperly. Thanks for pointing this out!

<< It is certainly way before the Majapahit battled the Sulu warriors and were repelled. The vaunted Majapahit who dared to tattoo the faces of Kubalai Khan's emissaries with insults when the Mongols threatened them.
>>

Which brings us to the Ming Shih (Annals of the Ming Dynasty). It states that in 1368, three years prior to Prapanca's epic poem... the Tausug warriors of Sulu in the Philippines invaded Borneo. ***It was the Sulu warriors who were repelled.***

The Sulus battled the Majapahit's forces in the vassal state of Borneo and plundered Brunei. However, a larger force of Majapahit arrived from Java only to find it evacuated by the Sulus. So even the word "repelled" may be too strong if they never battled the Majapahit's reinforcements.

What it shows is that the Philippines were never conquered or ruled by the Majapahit nor the Sri Vijayans because it was in turn the Sulus who were an aggressor to the empire's other vassal state of Borneo.

Source is "The Philippines: A Unique Nation" by Dr. Sonia M. Zaide and Dr. Gregorio F. Zaide.

What this book contends is that Indonesian version of history takes certain liberties in the spread of the Majapahit. Somewhat bolstered by President Sukarno of Indonesia in his attempt to restore the grandeur of the Majapahit Empire. Something that the book, "Cambridge History of SE Asia" also implies.

The Indonesian poet Prapanca, wrote in his "Nagarakertagama" that the Majapahit had 94 vassal states including Solot. However the Zaide's discount that as historical myth because it implied that Solot ( mentioned twice in the poem) was actually Sulu. A Dutch scholar, Professor C. Berg whose critical studies on the areas mentioned in the poem revealed two places which actually went by the name of Solot. One was a small island in the Lesser Sundas and the other in the northeastern portion of Borneo which still carried the name Solot at the time of the book's writing.

The Nagarakertagama also listed a place called "Saludung" as a part of the Majapahit Empire. Majapahit-centric supporters state that Saludung was really the Philippines but the Zaides' contend that it is in northwest Borneo. Other Chinese writings (in 1178, 1225, 1349) also confirm this stating the Sri Vijayan empire had only 15 vassal states without any mention of the area which later became known as the Philippines.

----------

However, this does not discount the immense effect of Indian culture upon the islands. The Philippines was greatly influenced through hundreds of years of India / Malay / Indonesian / Filipino commerce. Later on, even through royal marriage between the cultures. Thus, the Mahayana Buddhist based Sri Vijayans and the Brammanistic / Hindu based Majapahit, both deeply rooted in Indian culture filtered into Philippine traditions even to this day.

Majapahit / SV culture came in through interaction not war, for the Filipino natives had methods of indigenous warfare. How different they were from the other Malay tribes is unknown for there are no detailed records of the various tribe's fighting methods prior to the Sanskrit based culture's arrival. In turn, the islands adopted the earliest known terminology for weapons from Sanskrit. The Sanskrit word for weapon, "Senjata" can be traced all through Indonesia and Malaysia. It is called "Sandata" in the Philippines.

The Moro dress of tight fitting trousers were also an influence of the Indian putees. The female's sarong were a modified version of the sari. Even the turban were worn prior to Islam's arrival. Look at the vibrant colors of the fabric and the designs and it will reflect their Indian influence. The Sanskrit word for stronghold is "Kona" which reflects the Indonesian word "Kota" which in turn is the same word for Southern Philippine fortress/towns "kota/Cotta". Even the athletically built warriors of the Kalingas with their headaxes are named after the Kalingas of South Orissa, India.

Sanskrit contains the ***FIRST*** unified terminology for the Philippine island's descriptions of war.

--Rafael--
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---------------
 
my post was about the explanation of what is kali on that website. okay, i did not read everything, and i respect what you said about kali, that it is usually called arnis eskrima. no problem there. and i also dont have problem when people call there arts "kali".

my problem, and you can blame it on the people who made the website ( i did not say i was mad at SAYOC KALI, only at whoever wrote the website), but my problem was the whole section on "kali", the history, explanations, all of that could make the philippine martial arts sound good, was used to say "KALI is all of this", and does not mention arnis and eskrima. even though, it points out that some of the arts are changed through the years, but "kali was passed from father to son, kali has this in it, kali has that in it..." so in other words, that whole explanations went to say how great KALI is, and that was it. even though kali was kept alive in secret, bla bla blah, some filipinos blended there arts with spanish styles.... i think you know what part i was reading.

so anyway, i was originally happy that the philippine martial arts was put into a big movie, but then i was disappointed that it was only the philippine martial arts of those who call there arts KALI that got the real attention. if the site spoke about ALL filipino arts, or a blanket of the philippine martial arts, my feelings would be different. but the site makes an effort to hype KALI, and draw a difference of kali to arnis eskrima. i read what you said, and i know you combated that, but the site did not, and that is what i was pissed off about.

anyway going back to my original point, the art of KALI did not pass through the generations, it became arnis eskrima, even though some people are going back to calling the arts kali.

the information you gave is interesting, but it does not deny that kali is separate from arnis eskrima, and it does not prove that KALI is an art that made it from prehispanic times to today. KALI is an old name that has been brought back to life. as long as the students know this, and do not get the idea that kali is different/better than arnis eskrima, i have no arguement.
 
What I meant though, was the true combart martial arts of old China are practiced more in the U.S. than in China. Styles like Hung Gar, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc are forbidden to be practiced in China (or so sayeth the documentary I saw on the Discovery Channel). Since the traditional styles of combat martial arts were outlawed, WuShu was developed.
Click to expand...

Traditional martial arts are still practiced in the Peoples' Republic of China, and, although many teachers were persecuted during the Cultural Revolution, those who made it through that terrible time (now in their '70's - 90's ) continue to pass their legacy to their students. You are indeed correct that many of these students are now located in the United States; however, a fair number still travel to the PRC to further their studies (now that traditional martial arts can be openly taught and studied without fear of reprisal).

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
<< i read what you said, and i know you combated that, but the site did not, and that is what i was pissed off about.>>

That would be fine. However your original post appeared on ****EVERY**** FMAs/blade related forum and it will probably never be read by those you were refering to :

<<YOU GUYS KNOW NOW, WHAT IS KALI AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ARTS, AND YOU STILL WANT TO TELL YOUR OWN VERSION OF OUR HISTORY. why not? you do it with every body else history, the filipino might as well be next.
>>

"YOU GUYs" according to your last post, would refer to the people who do promos for Paramount's website, correct?

They certainly are ***not *** reading the various knife related forums, nor are they active members of online FMA message boards. They were just working on a deadline and are now ten projects ahead on something else.

Specifically stating whom you were "pissed off" at would have been clearer.

As far as the explanation of KALI, here is how many of us see it today:

The term for the collective Pre- Hispanic Philippine Island's Martial Art / Mother Art ***if A term ever existed*** is forever LOST.

The term for the collective Present day Philippine Island's Martial Art /Mother Art can be anything we choose to call it today. KALI... ARNIS... ESKRIMA... FMA... FFA ...etc. That's because the art is alive and evolving the way combative arts are supposed to.

We agree on that.

Your issues are obviously with a studio's website authors who you must understand are NOT Filipino history buffs, are non - FMA's , nor were they present on set or training with us. They spoke to me on the phone for a total of ten minutes - approximately two minutes on the oriigin of FMAs - you're lucky I got anything in about Arnis - Eskrima.

Now ... we still have to make sure our system got credit on screen.

Our system just happens to be called Sayoc KALI.

Of course our students/ fellow instructors want it to be known that it was Sayoc KALI who worked on the film. So we are not going to call it Sayoc ARNIS or Sayoc ESKRIMA (nothing bad about it but we use the term, KALI). Likewise, we wouldn't assume that anyone else would be obligated to call for the sake of an example: San Miguel ESKRIMA... San Miguel KALI, if SME got a chance to work on a film. We'd be very proud they got on set, repped and did their thing.

From now on we are crediting anything we do for film SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY.

This way it states that :

1. It is for choreographic purposes, so people can distinguish from Sayoc KALI's methods and stuff for film.

2. It is the work of SAYOC people only.

3. And that our forte in this sense, are working on films that have exciting combative scenes in it.

This way when a newbie inquires about that martial art style on the screen... it will be interpreted as whatever an instructor dictates it to be.

Perhaps KARATE instructors will say it is KARATE, KUNG FU will say it is some ancient Chinese art. SILAT folks will call it SILAT.

And KALI / ARNIS / ESKRIMA geeks will sling patis at each other over terminology.

so...

SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY

You'll see it again.

--Rafael--
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I most definitely am an Arnis geek. But I don't segregate or discriminate and any of you Kali and Escrima geeks are more than welcome to play with me!

Hey, Thanks for so much information you guys. It is great to hear (read) so much straight from legitimate practitioners- You are making this geek's eyes bug out behind his coke-bottle glasses!

Thanks!
 
...if SME got a chance to work on a film. We'd be very proud they got on set, repped and did their thing...

SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY

You'll see it again...
Click to expand...

Thank you. Looking forward to seeing "SAYOC COMBAT CHOREOGRAPHY" in the future.

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
again,

when i say "you guys" i am talking about the people who fits the description of what i was talking about. if you do not tell people that kali is different from arnis eskrima, then "you guys" is not talking about you.

but, i know the website authors did not get this information on there own, and i am surprised they did not cross the information they "found" with your history of "kali". but if you say they did not, and the information did not come from you, i am satisfied with that, and i apologize to you. but yes, i am pissed off that people are continuing to push a made up history of "kali" just to hold on to the name, or to make themselves seem more "authentic" then the "spanish based" arnis and eskrima.(btw, i have seen the western martial artists, both here in CA and in the east coast, and they all did FMA before "discovering" WMA)

and i posted my feelings "all over the internet" because i was hoping to get some people talking about "KALI" and hoping to reach some people who just didnt know about the real orgin of what we know about the word.

i did not post to sayoc kali site, because i dont visit that site, and when i found out there was a forum there, was not interested in continuing a discussion, espcially one that would be personal. but now, that i have an invitation to post there, i probably will.

anyway, i am sure the fight choreagraphy on the movie was really good, and i have been wanting to see it for a while. i am glad to see the FMA represented in a movie.

but i am still pissed off the myth of kali is even stronger with the development of this movie.
 
Re. the "kali" issue I reiterate my assertion (originally stated in another thread in this forum) that the use of the word "kali" is legitimate insofar as it reflects a contemporary understanding of the term: "kali" refers to Filipino fighting arts and can be used interchangably with "eskrima" and "arnis." At this point, it would appear that most of us are in agreement about this issue.

With respect to any irritation with the way that "creation myths" are told (to the effect that "kali" is the "mother art" from which all other Filipino martial arts stem) - I consul patience. The source of these stories is folklore (which always retains a tenacious grip on the imagination) - as related by the earliest eskrimadors to teach openly in this country. These stories may well have been included in the first written accounts of FMA (written to introduce and popularize arts for which there was practically no written evidence), and may have contributed further to the attraction of the "kali" myth alluded to above - but most eskrimadors today understand that the "kali" story is just a story.

We should consider that we are in the middle of a "growing up" period with respect to our understanding of the Filipino fighting arts. Now that older generations of Filipino martial artists have successfully passed on their legacy, it is up to the "youngsters" to continue to practice and research the arts to which we have been entrusted. With respect to writing history, my personal experience has been that all intitial attempts are subject to correction: when I wrote a brief history of Momoy Canete and published it on my web page, several people wrote me and offered corrections and additions that I gladly included in the final version:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm

In this respect, Wiley's remarks (in Filipino Martial Culture) about the first attempts to document a tradition (which I exerpt from an earlier post of mine on the Dogbrothers public forum) are interesting:

"The recording and documentation of history is an arduous and often difficult undertaking. While reading about history we frequently believe the point of view of the author; however, this is often incomplete and inaccurate. In particular, when tracing the origin of an art of war, such as Eskrima, it is often difficult to string together the bits and pieces of fragmented information into chronological order. Also, since the exact origin of the art was never documented by those who were directly responsible for its founding, much is left to speculation and the cross-referencing of pertinent information to historical events in the surrounding geographical region."

Wiley is the first to admit that scholarship in the area of Filipino martial arts is fraught with the possibility of error due to the fact that, until quite recently, no one wrote anything down. This means that the anthropologist or historian of Filipino martial arts tradition must rely on oral history for many of his facts and conclusions. With respect to oral history, Wiley writes that:

"Although oral traditions do suffice in the absence or paucity of written documentation, they often lead to the formation of legends. Regrettably, this oral dissemination of knowledge has resulted in a number of authors unknowingly perpetrating false information, as these stories are often taken at face value."

(Note: It is perhaps true that Wiley is as much a victim in this regard as the authors whom he criticizes.)

Wiley’s additional remarks about oral traditions are particularly noteworthy:

“…(O)ral historiography is considered a legitimate method of inquiry in researching various aspects of Filipino culture today. Demetrio’s position on this is well taken: ‘oral tradition is concerned not with authorship or fact…Most of the time what is handed down as tradition has no author, nor can it be established as ‘fact’ always. Yet the fact that a story, a proverb, a myth is handed down either orally or in writing, whether in its entirety or in part, argues for its value and importance for both the tradition bearers and receivers."

Speaking of the attempt of some Filipino martial arts systems to trace their roots back to Lapu Lapu, for example, Wiley writes that:

“However, while the connection between Lapulapu, the Bothoan, and these masters’ respective martial arts is historically unfounded, their belief in this connection is of great importance. From an anthropologically (sic) perspective, the historical accuracy of these accounts is less important than what these practitioners believe and why. It is precisely these creation myths which provide the martial arts practitioner with a sense of meaning, identity, and orientation to world historical events in general. To this end...the researcher “can learn much about meaningful action by listening to storytellers as they depict their own lives.”

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
<<but, i know the website authors did not get this information on there own, and i am surprised they did not cross the information they "found" with your history of "kali". but if you say they did not, and the information did not come from you, i am satisfied with that, and i apologize to you. >>

You will note that even in the production notes section - they mis-quoted me by listing "Italians" as a major influence in FMAs. When in fact, I said "Spanish" which is pretty easy for many of US to differentiate, but to someone unfamiliar to the FMAS it is understandable.

FWIW, you haven't seen The HUNTED yet... there is no mention of FMAs, KALI, ESKRIMA or ARNIS in the film. It isn't about FMAS - but there's FMAs in it.

Remember that when we got on the HUNTED set- Sayoc Kali were **NOT** the original choreographers. Tuhon Tom Kier was the knife consultant but that was it. The script was already written. Previously, non FMAs choreographers were assigned and working on moves with the actors. Later on, I was asked to come along for an extended period when the director wanted to see a demo of Sayoc Kali. He wantedto see something more realistic and brutal... like real knife fight would be. When he asked us how long a real knife fight would be- we answered "maybe five to ten seconds".

Well that won't do. Not for this film anyway.

Prior to going to Portland, I asked a very knowledgeable FMAs instructor (a veteran on numerous films) how things went about on a Hollywood set. He advised that it was VERY VERY difficult to get anything on film that doesn't get filtered, changed, overruled or dismissed by the powers that be. Simply because FMAs isn't the big trend, the film folks don't understand it, and that the moves are less cinematic.

If one looks back at Hollywood cinema, you would be hard pressed to find a single knife tap or cool stick work. "Bourne Identity" was still being shot at this time. "Exposure" was probably the closest to FMAs, but hardly constitutes as a big budget film.

We felt this was a good challenge and goal. A rare opportunity to get FMAs foot in the door.

So when I got called on set to assist Tuhon Tom to demo Sayoc Kali.. we free flowed and received a very positive response all around.

From then on we worked little by little to get this and that on the film. Every move we included, had been dissected and carefully presented to the decision makers so that they would be able to grasp the intent. On location getting that time is precious so we had to make sure things were moving along without being overzealous.

So in three months or so, we did a intensive instruction course on not only FMAs, but the mentality of a knife person, tons of safety precautions (keep the fake blades awy from eye level, make sure the collapsibles don't freeze in cold temperatures and get stuck, etc.) and touched on Filipino history. Mind you, the Filipino history was rather sparse since the script had nothing to do with that. The film folks were all about focusing on things that would complement the script.

We knew enough to honor that.

They didn't want to see any silat, no stick work, no sword work, but they were open to our ideas of medical management, projectile and the Sayoc Kali vital template we teach to military folks... modified for film of course.

We got to show a mini introduction of FMAs with the first fight scene between TLJ and BDT... you will note that they go from empty hand drill mode, to semi serious contact simulating a blade in their empty hands, to knife vs. empty hand, stick vs empty hand, knife vs. stick, small stick vs. knife, empty hand vs. empty hand (looking to get to the knife), grappling with a knife.... all in thirty seconds.

We were also able to have that training sequence written into the script which is rather unheard of in those circles.

It's interesting to read all these online posts commenting on The HUNTED, how things could have been done this way or that.

------

Steve Lamade,

You're welcome. I've only met one of the Canetes but have heard wonderful things about all of them from Tuhon Chris Sayoc. One thing that he has stressed (that others seem to forget) was that the Canetes at large were the biggest influence (outside of his family) on his point of view of what a FM Artists should be .

That's something, since he's seen many of the the old timers from way back and even trained with them.

Also enjoyed your post on writing history - well put.

--Rafael--
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Tuhon Rafael,

Welcome to the board and thanks for all the historical information! I hope we get to see more of it.

I went to see 'The Hunted' with my instructors (AldonAsher and arnisandyz on this board, both affiliated with Guro Dionaldo's FCS) and was very happy with the representation of the FMA onscreen, considering the allowances that must be made with a thematic presentation of any type of fighting.

Good work!

Cthulhu
 
Sun_Helmet, great to have you hear--I've heard many good things about you (e.g. at Jeff Chung's seminars).

Federico, that was interesting info. about the pronucniation of 'kalis'!
 
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