Not an MMA vs. TMA thread

Brian S

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Do you think that the techniques found in TMA have not been researched nearly enough by MMAist's? There is ALOT to learn in TMA regarding the training method's of modern MMA, I think MMA has lot to learn from those tradional Budo's which fall outside of sporting diciplines.

Maybe TMA should be researched more by MMA fighters to ad to their arsenal?

Could it be that MMA is now a closeminded skillset?
 

Twin Fist

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most of the first gen MMA's fighters had strong TMA backgrounds

the up and commings today? prob not.

Really, to compete in thier chosen sport, they dont need to study TMA's.the First Gen's have gleaned a lot of the usuable techniques from the TMA's and those techniques are already in the MMA vocabulary
 

kaizasosei

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from Brian

Maybe TMA should be researched more by MMA fighters to ad to their arsenal?

Shhhhh! not so loud!

just kidding... i think you are right.

j
 

chinto

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I do think most of the newest gen of the MMA'ers are a close minded skill set.. and many seem to be completely close minded about any other MA period from what I have seen. not all mind you, but many.
 

JBrainard

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I think Twin Fist and kaizasosei are both right, really. MMA players are learning the skills they need to compete. That's their arena, and they do well in it. Could they do better by studying TMAs (especialy "stripped down" TMAs like Wing Chun) to improve thier game? Sure, but they really don't need to in order to excell in thier sport.

I do think most of the newest gen of the MMA'ers are a close minded skill set.. and many seem to be completely close minded about any other MA period from what I have seen. not all mind you, but many.

True enough, but that is about MMA player's attitudes more than whether or not TMAs would improve thier game.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I guess it depends on what your' goal is in MMA. If you are learning mixed martial arts to cover holes in your exitsting training, then chances are that you're already researching other TMA.

If you're looking to do better in the ring, probably not. Just as modern sport TKD has, competative MMA has become a sport all its own and is developing into its own unique system. There will come a point (perhaps we're already there?) when the techniques in competative MMA are a specific set developed for performance in the ring, which would make competative MMA a semi codified martial art, similar to boxing. Looking at boxing, yes, its all hand techniques, but it is a specific set. You don't see the wide array of hand techniques avaible in TMA in boxing, but only those that are useful in the boxing ring. Thus boxing is its own art. In that way, MMA is its own style.

Now, with an MMA background, if the practitioner wanted to gear his or her MMA techniques towards defense outside of the ring, then they would do well to study some TMA's that have useful techniques in this area.

Daniel
 

Nolerama

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I guess it depends on what your' goal is in MMA. If you are learning mixed martial arts to cover holes in your exitsting training, then chances are that you're already researching other TMA.

If you're looking to do better in the ring, probably not. Just as modern sport TKD has, competative MMA has become a sport all its own and is developing into its own unique system. There will come a point (perhaps we're already there?) when the techniques in competative MMA are a specific set developed for performance in the ring, which would make competative MMA a semi codified martial art, similar to boxing. Looking at boxing, yes, its all hand techniques, but it is a specific set. You don't see the wide array of hand techniques avaible in TMA in boxing, but only those that are useful in the boxing ring. Thus boxing is its own art. In that way, MMA is its own style.

Now, with an MMA background, if the practitioner wanted to gear his or her MMA techniques towards defense outside of the ring, then they would do well to study some TMA's that have useful techniques in this area.

Daniel

That's well said. I don't think there's anything like an "MMA-punch" or "MMA kick" or whatever. We use what works, IMHO.

There's a whole lot of respect to the science of movement and technique that many TMAs, like Judo, JuJitsu, Greco, Muay Thai, and Boxing have... as well as the adherence to the art that that particular move is known to be from. There's a lot of research to see if the move will work with a high percentage of success.

There are plenty of MMA schools and clubs out there that stress the applicability of certain moves in either a competition match, or on the street in a SD situation.

On the flip side to the general consensus so far in this thread, I've encountered plenty of TMAists that attempt to use what they've learned in their TMA, only to find that it doesn't work in a SD situation... Or with VERY low percentages. Is it possible that TMAs don't focus as much on what really works?
 

BrandonLucas

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I think what alot of the new MMA players tend to forget is what MMA actually stands for:

Mixed Martial Arts

What this means is that people have started mixing different types of martial arts together, mostly a combo of grappling and striking, and have started using the strong points of other arts to enhance their arsenal.

This is mostly effective if someone already has a strong background in a TMA, whether it's striking or grappling. What MMA is designed to do is round out a person's arsenal. If someone is an exceptional striker, in TKD for example, then they could compliment their arsenal by learning Judo or BJJ, and vice versa.

Most of the veterans in sport MMA world know this, and have a pretty open mind about what they need to learn and work on. It seems that many of the noobs coming into the sport MMA world don't understand this concept as well, and have been under the instruction of someone who is teaching MMA only...they aren't starting with a TMA first, and then working from there.

I think that's where the problem is: the new guys to the sport think that they can just learn from someone who was already strong in one TMA and then rounded it out with other MA's to make a complete arsenal. It doesn't quite work this way. You can't teach everyone bits and pieces of different arts and expect them to be able to succeed as well as someone who was already used to a TMA to begin with.

I also think that a large part of the problem is attitude. Many of the new sport MMA guys think that it's all about getting out there and beating the crap out of the other guy. Since they don't have any experience in TMA, they may not have learned the respect that comes from taking TMA from a good instructor. I have seen this more and more after watching later seasons of The Ultimate Fighter...every time a new season comes on, these guys get more and more disrespectful, and to them, it seems to be all about fighting, and nothing else.

If their attitude could be adjusted to see that MMA is not simply learning from someone who has their own system of MMA, then maybe some of these guys could grow to be truely rounded martail artists.

Just my opinion.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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On the flip side to the general consensus so far in this thread, I've encountered plenty of TMAists that attempt to use what they've learned in their TMA, only to find that it doesn't work in a SD situation... Or with VERY low percentages. Is it possible that TMAs don't focus as much on what really works?
A whole thread could be done on this subject alone!:)

Here's my take. The majority of TMA practitioners do not train at anything like the level that TMA practitioners did back in the sixties and seventies. Modern MMA competitors or aspiring competitors do, which is a big factor that sets them appart from the average MA hobbyist, which is what most TMAists are.

Also, McDojos dominate the landsape of TMA, thus there is probably a lot of either poor instruction in SD, or a lack of training in it entirely. Most Traditional Martial Arts dojos/dojangs are not Traditional, so I guess the qualifier is whether or not the TMAist has had genuine instruction and whether they've trained hard.

Daniel
 

Mimir

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There have been many threads on the boards that talk about MMA vs TMA for self defense. My opinion is that it really has more to do with the student and the teacher rather than the style as to the effectiveness of the techniques in a self defense situation. If a MMA student only half way practices, then they will only get half-way techniques. The same thing applies to any TMA student. We only get out of our training what we put into it.

Traditional vs Mixed is irrelevant, they are Martial Arts. I personally am unconcerned with the question of my particular art being better or worse than someone else's art for self defense or whatever other aspect. My concern is if I am learning and working on perfecting my own chosen art.
 

kaizasosei

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effectiveness is very important in mma.

as Nolerama has posed the question:
Is it possible that TMAs don't focus as much on what really works? __________________

i think that all peole of all styles especially the inexperienced are quick to say what works and does not work. i myself, although i did make great use of my rudimentary understanding of techniques in my youth, did sometimes come across moves that i tried and upon discovering that i couldnt pull it off, quickly gave up on the technique and thought it didn't work...

years later i would see that i did the move incorrectly at the wrong time on a partner that was not complient. obviously, the technique is doomed to fail.

i think that one needs to test things out as honestly and fairly as possible. either with complient partners,semi-complient or people actively trying to resist.
even if you think you have a move down, you still have to ask yourself under what circumstances would the effectiveness of the technique be comprimised...

of course ma techniques for real or even dangerous situations, call for quick impeccable judgement, it's more of a challenge for the mind than the body.

It's a matter of adjusting to the surroundings, the opponent and the specific circumstances of the confrontation.

-just when you really think you have figured it out, you realize you haven't yet.-

test, test test. untill you know every little detail of the move, how it works and how it doesnt.

i personally find, the greatest test, is to do moves without aggression or excessive speed. if your moves pass that test, they are bound to be effective in many different situations.
because if one achieves such skill, one does achieve a certain amount of security- and security has a lot to do with knowing about insecurity but definately not about being insecure.

j
 
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zDom

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Do you think that the techniques found in TMA have not been researched nearly enough by MMAist's? ...
Maybe TMA should be researched more by MMA fighters to ad to their arsenal? ...

Could it be that MMA is now a closeminded skillset?

This is indeed what I think.

It has become, I think, a self-perpetuating circle. The reasoning is something like:

Technique Set A is all that works
so
We only focus on training Technique Set A
because
Technique Set A is all that works
so
We only focus on training Technique Set A
because
Technique Set A is all that works

etc...




(Mind you, they aren't the ONLY ones I think are guilty of this circular trap: I think the same thing about WTF sport TKDist, too.)



A specific example of a technique that is simple to learn, simple to do, and very effective: a front snap kick.

I've long thought MMAists were missing the boat by not bothering to master this technique. I felt my belief was demonstrated to be on the mark a few UFC events back when, in an undercard fight, one of the fighters thumped in about two front kicks into his opponents midsection.

They had a VISIBLE effect on his opponent. It looked like the kicks hurt and confused him: no longer could he just keep a high guard and avoid head punches. NOW when he THOUGHT he was "out of range" he was eating body shots.

I don't see why EVERY MMA fighter doesn't want this tool in their arsenal. Easy investment with high returns.

Another ready example: ridgehand. Not saying the ridgehand opening is always there, and it IS easy to block. But it is EASY to learn and make powerful and when that opening is THERE: great chance of a knockout with a single shot.
 

Xue Sheng

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Do you think that the techniques found in TMA have not been researched nearly enough by MMAist's? There is ALOT to learn in TMA regarding the training method's of modern MMA, I think MMA has lot to learn from those tradional Budo's which fall outside of sporting diciplines.

Maybe TMA should be researched more by MMA fighters to ad to their arsenal?

Could it be that MMA is now a closeminded skillset?

I think a lot of "real" MMA people research TMA all the time. As one told me "whatever will help him win the match" and he was training Qi Gong because he felt it kept him more relaxed while fighting. But I also see, based on a rather impressive school in my area that the teacher makes all the difference and in this case the teacher has a rather extensive background in TMA and now extensive BJJ training as well and he has combined that with other things he has trained and he is passing that onto his students. And I have talked with him and he is FAR from closed minded.
 
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