- May 16, 2014
- Reaction score
Hey mark, good points and a great story about GM Remy.Hoshin1600 I think you are expecting to much from a 2 minute instructional video on joint manipulations. I believe you are being way to critical for such a short video on this subject.
Hoshin have you ever considered that English might not be his primary language. When I googled the instructor, his bio says he learned KM starting at age 7 from Imi Lichtenfeld and is certified by the Wingate Institute in Israel. When I listened to him talk I thought there were other phrases that slightly seemed out of place like when listening to someone trying to translate something in their head and then express it. His wording wasn't way off, just slightly.
While he calls it a wrist manipulation he then clarifies that by saying "wrist manipulation, or or the manipulation of the wrist, the elbow, or anything on the arm......." leading to his bigger point as to why to do a manipulation in the first place. I don't believe this was lack of knowledge in his phrasing but possibly loss of thought on how to phrase it properly. Maybe he didn't have cue cards with all of his words scripted out, maybe he was nervous in front of the camera who knows. My point is you take a pretty big leap here to say
"but it stood out to me that the lack of detailed terminology might be an indicator that he doesnt know the material that well."
I'm sorry your disappointed. Again I feel the guy is trying to cover his bases here explaining how KM is a broad scope art that was designed for both civilian and LEOs and sometimes it is easier to solve the problem with joint manipulations (i.e. joint cranks, locks, arm bars etc.etc.) rather than just beating on the person with your fist.
Sorry again I disagree with you, I didn't get that at all from watching and listening to the video. I never heard him say "I apologize for this next part (of the video) because it doesn't work. I don't believe this works but I have to put it in here cause this is a video on joint manipulation ad that why your viewing it so here goes. But in reality I'd just hit the guy cause beating on him works every time. hehehehe sinckersnicker cough cough" What I heard him say was a short description on what to look for when applying the lock/crank/manipulation such having the arm bent, the forearm horizontal to the floor, pressure applied to the side of the wrist and from the outside of the elbow, along with rotation of the wrist. Then a quick demonstration when he applied the rotation. After explaining the mechanics of the crank or manipulation he then shows how you could do this off of a hand grab (here's where he says what he does about not punching), then he shows the technique again from the grabbing of his shirt. Off of the same basic technique he showed three basic ways of getting the same lock along with two demos of how to apply the technique. I don't see it that he doesn't understand the technique, nor that he doesn't believe it works.
So you grab the fingers and the thumb good for you. He shows grabbing the meaty part of the hand at 1:41, then at 2:01 he shows trapping the fingers to his wrist as he rotates his hand over their wrist, and at 2:16 he shows the capture and rotation of the wrist off of the tee shirt grab again grabbing the meaty part of the hand but this time he applies pressure downward on the elbow as if to prevent it from rising upwards. I listed this as a variation of the basic technique because I didn't really see him apply pressure on the elbow back towards the wrist so that he got a combination compression lock along with the cranking of the wrist which he demonstrated at first. Because I thought he just went into variation where he is preventing the elbow from rising, but he might have just been taking it easy on his partner.
I didn't see anything worth criticizing him about.
What's wrong with him saying " in many many ways"? Let me see should he have said "let me count the ways" and then go off listing them, or demoing them. So much for the short 2 minute video.
It is a short demo video showing how to do a specific lock with a few applications. It's not a course on wrist locks. The cross body wrist grab is a common way for someone to grab your wrist. A person grabbing your hand doesn't really give you the right to beat the crap out of them with your fist. It doesn't give you the right to crank their wrist so hard you strain it or damage it either. You need to learn to apply it without hurting your training partners, so you can start from here at this point safely.
People don't think wrist cranks work because we are gentle in the dojo. The difference between the lock being "ON!" and "off" is less than an 1/4 of an inch (or so) so it can't be seen it has to be felt.
I once asked GM Remy Presas to help me with a lock. At a camp my friend and I had issues with the two finger over the shoulder take down. Similar entry to Sankyo (stepping under the arm and applying a joint crank capturing two finger then over the shoulder take down) but we felt we could counter the technique since we would lose the lock in the transition for the take down. He said grab my hand,I grabbed, I then felt incredible pain as my fingers felt like they were being ripped out of my hand and then I was on my back with him standing over me asking "Do you understand". Remy showed me right then that allof the abscessing we had been doing over "well I could counter here and there" was just BS when it was applied with the intention of locking the fingers and taking me down to the ground for real. I had no time to counter, I had no time to think about countering, I just felt PAIN!!!! and then I was on my back.
Another time GM Remy applied to me the same wrist lock from a hand grab that is demonstrated in the video; again I felt tremendous pain and then I was on my knees in the dirt pleading for the pain to stop. There was no way for me to counter, no hit to the groin no trying to grab is leg etc. etc. Remy was showing me how to have faith in the technique, to believe it works by having felt it. I don't need to do the same thing to my students to practice the technique.
Because the locks/cranks work and are painful. You have to start somewhere and these are valid ways (speaking of the wrist grabs etc.etc.) to teach the material to beginners. After this they can begin to see all of the different variations of the locks but you have to start somewhere.
Hoshin I don't teach KM, practice KM etc. etc. I know nothing about this instructor his teaching methods or his abilities. I just think you expected to much from a 2 minute video and you unjustly made comments about the guy that were uncalled for.
Perhaps didn't make it clear enough the first few sentences of my original post. That I was analyzing this video but doing so as an abstract representation of the martial arts in general.
I felt that the video captured many points that mirror the martial arts community the foster and propagate the belief that joint manipulation doesn't work and poor teaching practices because it was very stereo typical of what is commonly taught.
My view on the video was disappointing because I was expecting something different from Krav when all I got was the same stereo typical lame wrist lock that even McDojo will teach.
I did say that this video was a good catalyst for a discussion on the subject. It's not my intention to put someone on a cross and whip them to death, but maybe that is how it turned out.