Non compliant training in Wing Chun.

[ap Oweyn26 2]

Just to clarify a couple of points: I specified rear wrist grab, implying the boxer is being attacked from behind, out of position to simply punch. Boxing does not train for grabs or rear attacks. There will be hesitation (or ineffective instinctual resistance) before reaction. It also does not train against kicks, groin strikes or takedowns. Boxers only train for techniques allowed in their rule set since it's a sport. A number of self-defense situations are not addressed by boxing rules.

The other point regarding the sticks is that the "you" I used in my post referred to Gyakuto, specifically, being trained in iai sword techniques. IMO, if both he and a boxer were armed with sword-like sticks, the boxer would be at a disadvantage.

I fully agree that controlled mental bearing, rugged physicality and ruthless determination play major roles in any combat situation. Most karate schools do not focus on these attributes enough, certainly not as much as competitive boxers.

That's fair, Isshinryuronin. I just don't think it results in the kind of sustained vapour lock you're describing here. I agree with some of this. In the early UFCs, when it was still very much framed as style versus style, there was a boxer who fared very poorly against grappling. Mind you, that grappling was being performed by Royce Gracie, another highly trained combat athlete.

As I said before, I think the thing I'm resisting is that it's as simple as all that. I understand that Gyakuto practices iaido, and I'm not much interested in dismissing his training. So I'll sub myself out in this example. I've been training in Filipino martial arts since 1989. And I don't think it's any sort of given that I'd win in a stickfight against a boxer holding a rattan stick. Of course it's possible, but the boxer has a really good "chassis" from which to work. Resistance training helps to make up for a lot of gaps in technique.

If a karateka trains with a similar level of resistance training and conditioning, then those technical nuances become more of a determining factor. But time is finite. So, even if you assume a similar training schedule for each, that necessarily means that the karateka is spending less time on honing each of those things.

 

[Prince_Alarming62 5]

I have to admit that sounds pretty likely. It does, to an extent, depend on the boxer and depend on the karateka. A good full contact karateka could probably hold his own against some kid who's just put some gloves on and is in his nascent I'm-going-to-be-Ali phase

 

[skribs123 143]

I think there's a number of factors here. There's the individual, their fitness level, their training level, their cross-training level, and their innate fight IQ and fighting spirit. Within a martial art, there's the scope of the art (how much you learn), which is both a blessing and a curse. You can learn more things but not have gone as deep into most of them (what I think happens a lot with arts like Karate or Taekwondo) or be very good in a specific area of martial arts (which happens a lot with arts like boxing or wrestling).

There's also what was done during training. Someone who trains MMA and has a 6-day-per week schedule that is:

• Monday: Push day, wrestling, cardio
• Tuesday: Pull day, jiu-jitsu, kickboxing
• Wednesday: Leg day, wrestling, MMA
• Thursday: Push day, jiu-jitsu, stretching
• Friday: Pull day, jiu-jitsu, cardio
• Saturday: Open mat, Judo class, stretching

That person is going to have much better success than someone who does their 1 hour of TKD on Mondays and Wednesdays and practices forms at home, not because MMA is better, but because they're putting 18 hours/week into this where the TKD person is putting in 3-4.

There's the fidelity of the training, but that's a scale as well. Higher fidelity of sparring tends to lead to lower fidelity of situational self-defense training. There are some places that have high fidelity of both (rare, and another trade-off in terms of time effectiveness for each aspect of the art), and some places that have low fidelity of both.

A couple of youtube links I think are interesting for this discussion:

Rokas Leo runs USDC, the Ultimate Self-Defense Championship. He is a former Aikidoka who decided to switch to MMA after a horrible loss to an MMA fighter, and has since decided to look at how different artists from different backgrounds fare in self-defense challenges. The really interesting thing is that you have some scenarios where there's a similar situation (a knife) and there's an entirely different approach. In some cases, you go against what you might expect to be some random thug with a knife, and disarms happen quite regularly in those challenges. Then you go into the shank tank challenges, where someone trained how to use a knife is given the instructions to stab you as many times as possible in 1 minute. Those tend to go significantly more poorly for the people involved.

I would say 90% of people who have regularly trained knife defenses in Taekwondo (assuming your school has it) could probably handle the thug situation. But even the top-level athletes, warriors, and self-defense experts have struggled mightily in the shank tank.

Another topic is a Muay Thai fighter I saw in a review from an elite kickboxer:

My first thought as a TKD guy: "Oh, this is that stuff WT was trying to get rid of in the Olympics." This fighter has a very Taekwondo style of fighting, and it works very well in Muay Thai. Which is incredibly funny because even the TKD guys are like "this isn't realistic", but then it works in the art that says TKD isn't realistic.

There's layers to unpack with this one.

 

[windwalker099124 154]

I think a boxer would just turn around (cos they’re much stronger than karateka due to their training methods)

How one measure this ?

One might argue the training methods are designed around producing different results.
Would boxers punch as hard bare knuckled compared to karateka ?

Used to spar against people in the Army who said they boxed, using Tibetan White Crane and agreeing not to kick them.

On one occasion, I slapped the inside of one guy’s forearm using what we called “burning hand.” He immediately stopped and couldn’t continue because of the type of pain the strike caused. It was kind of funny—he started spitting and cussing.

Iron palm is a little different but trained along the same lines

"Great Grandmaster Al Novak It was he and James Lee, that developed the shortest distance principle for executing highly focused punches at the closest possible ranges. This, they could do with board and brick breaking techniques at a mere distance of only two or three inches. It took considerable “compressed” force to accomplish a feat of this nature."

Some might remember him,,,met him a couple of times back in the day...very nice guy, very skilled in his method..

 

[Gyakuto124 133]

How one measure this ?

One might argue the training methods are designed around producing different results.

It’s a very good argument. Both are combat sports:

Karate training methods produce individuals with incredible coordination, exquisite balance and, together with a stiff canvas dōgi, seemingly explosive power. They have little stamina, their strikes are moderately hard (kicks more so- see below). They cannot take strikes well, especially to the head.

Boxing training methods produce individuals with exquisite upper body coordination, the ability to carry their bodies skillfully, their punches are very powerful, (float like a Lepidoptera, sting like a Hymenoptera) their stamina is incredible and they can receive blows with surprising ease.

Would boxers punch as hard bare knuckled compared to karateka ?

View attachment 34424

The power a muscle can generate is directly proportional to the cross-sectional area of their volume because there more contractile elements…sarcomeres (assuming full motor unit recruitment). Now look at a well-trained boxer and compare their physique against those hissing, hip thrusting (‘let’s do the time warp, yeah’!) bare-chested practitioners being slapped by their mates

Boxing gloves and wraps are worn (in part) because the bones of the hand can’t take the force boxers are able to generate. Karateka don’t need to do anything with their hands to protect them although some decide to for reasons of tradition.

I’ve been punch by karateka many times and OUCH! I’ve been punched by a boxer a couple of times and their punches shake your brain to the very core causing it to shut down in part or whole and ‘rattle your teeth’ It’s a weird, unpleasant sensation that I never want to experience again.

The point I’m making is as a Karate lover…let me rephrase that…as someone who loves karate, it’s grace, its beauty and the impressive sounds emanating from their dōgi, I don’t believe they’re a patch on the fighting abilities of boxers. When I see Lyoto Machida punching in the octagon, his guard position is like a boxer’s and punches like a boxer, not like a traditional a Karateka. I wonder why?

 

[windwalker099124 154]

Karateka don’t need to do anything with their hands to protect them although some decide to for reasons of tradition.

I find a statement hard to believe coming from a practitioner.

In Chinese martial arts, the conditioning for things like iron palm, and other methods are done to develop the force that is transmitted through the hand. .

Boxers don’t the same methods because they don’t have to. Although bare knuckle boxing might share some of the same methodologies, they also use a different targeting based on protect protecting their hands . Ie not many head shots .

Punching methods are based on the environments they function in.

 

[windwalker099124 154]

When I see Lyoto Machida punching in the octagon, his guard position is like a boxer’s and punches like a boxer, not like a traditional a Karateka. I wonder why?

Maybe he’s not attempting to demonstrate his art, but is adapting to what he feels the needs of the event are in order to win the match.

If winning is the main concern, how it’s done may not matter much.

In gaining functional ability of the art one practices, it matters. Different focus



I should mention in my younger years I spent many of those years, using what all said would not work, in order to prove that it would. Later, on understanding, the only one I needed to prove anything to was myself..

For myself, when someone says , they have mastered their art, to me. It means that functionally anything they do is from their art there is no separation.

If someone says they did not use this or that it would indicate to me that they have not really mastered their art, but only use it as a tool to achieve an end .

 

[Gyakuto124 133]

I find a statement hard to believe coming from a practitioner.

They don’t need to because they don’t exert forces that will damage a correctly used fist. If they’re silly enough to hit boards and brick, then they might, but why would they risk damaging the exquisite structure that is the hand?

In the absence of these practises, a punch bag would be more than sufficient for the average Karateka.

In Chinese martial arts, the conditioning for things like iron palm, and other methods are done to develop the force that is transmitted through the hand. .

Does that conditioning really increase the transmission of force through the hands significantly? If the power of a strike was measured from an iron palm was measured, against soft karateka’s hand, would there be a difference?
Or does that training do something else?

Boxers don’t the same methods because they don’t have to. Although bare knuckle boxing might share some of the same methodologies, they also use a different targeting based on protect protecting their hands . Ie not many head shots .

I know nothing of bare knuckle fighters.

Punching methods are based on the environments they function in.

Faith is belief despite a lack of evidence. TCM fighting a boxer of similar experience? My predictive encoding makes me place my £5 would go on the boxer.

 

[Gyakuto124 133]

Maybe he’s not attempting to demonstrate his art, but is adapting to what he feels the needs of the event are in order to win the match.

Which is boxing and not Karate. QED.

If winning is the main concern, how it’s done may not matter much.

In a fight, would would any other concern be.

In gaining functional ability of the art one practices, it matters. Different focus

Would you define ‘functional ability?

I should mention in my younger years I spent many of those years, using what all said would not work, in order to prove that it would. Later, on understanding, the only one I needed to prove anything to was myself..

For myself, when someone says , they have mastered their art, to me. It means that functionally anything they do is from their art there is no separation.

If someone says they did not use this or that it would indicate to me that they have not really mastered their art, but only use it as a tool to achieve an end .

Look, boxer vs Karate/Chinese martial arts who is most likely to win. Be honest.

 

[windwalker099124 154]

In a fight, would would any other concern be.

Surviving it, not winning.
To be in a fight means both have lost already, depending on the type of fight one may not survive it.

Would you define ‘functional ability?

The ability to manifest the characteristics of a method and adapt them to different situations as needed. How that ability develops depends on the depth of practice and one’s intended use.

Look, boxer vs Karate/Chinese martial arts who is most likely to win. Be honest.

"be honest"

meaning I should agree with you

I can say, with out much doubt based on your comments, my experience seems to be quite different from yours.

Mike, one of my teachers long ago...talks about the burning hand

" The “Burning Hand,” was Mr. Long’s signature technique, and he was quite open about teaching it those who wanted to learn it. It was an “internal” specialty, different from “external” pushing power. More a slap than a hit, Mr. Long would sometimes place a phone book on your shoulder and give it one of those “slaps.”

You could feel two things coming through the phone book. The first was a push (the external component) that would set you back a foot or two. That was to be expected, but it wasn’t anything to worry about. It was the second thing that was nasty... a sharp, stinging sensation that penetrated your shoulder.

This second force seemed to follow the more external, first force. It seemed to lag behind. But the external force was then gone in an instant, while the stinging second force stayed -- and grew.

Now, I am not a gullible person, and it was going to take more than a trickle of this second force through a phone book to convince me that this slapping stuff was anything much.

And so it was that Mr. Long deflected my punch with a slap…just a little too hard. And as a result, my arm locked out in front of me, as if frozen, while a searing pain moved through the flexor muscle compartment of my forearm.

My jaw clenched shut as I could feel beads of sweat forming on my face. Mr. Long continued to yack away at the other students, unaware of my predicament. I was struggling to breath, actually. I couldn’t move, actually. "

 

[drop bear123 62]

I've seen many top boxing matches over the years yet never saw one boxer deal with a rear wrist grab. Is it because it's against their rules and so they have never trained for it? Wouldn't a karate-ka be better at dealing with such self-defense encounters? And if you and a boxer had long sticks handy in a confrontation, wouldn't you have an edge?

Again, I'm not touting TMA over boxing. Just pointing out that there is a limit to what boxing can do.

Not in any scenario where the boxer has the oportunity to hit you.

Which is a lot of scenarios.

 

[drop bear123 62]

If a karateka trains with a similar level of resistance training and conditioning, then those technical nuances become more of a determining factor. But time is finite. So, even if you assume a similar training schedule for each, that necessarily means that the karateka is spending less time on honing each of those things.

The thing people miss, is karate is less of a vehicle to take your expertise in fighting to anwhere good. Than other disciplines.
(You just can't be a millionaire Karate fighter.

Mabye combat karate. I don't know how much they are getting paid)

Which is why you get your Sam Greco's and Machida's move in to other sports.

And so unfortunately they suffer from a talent drain.

So on average you don't get the same technical instruction.

Often you don't even get the same volume of instruction.

 

[Gyakuto124 133]

Surviving it, not winning.
To be in a fight means both have lost already, depending on the type of fight one may not survive it.

Oh a low bar. Many do that by rolling into a ball and whimpering. Boxers survive and win.

The ability to manifest the characteristics of a method and adapt them to different situations as needed. How that ability develops depends on the depth of practice and one’s intended use.

‘Do your style with a bit of situational modification’? For some arts that are not really fighting systems, that means doing boxing-like fighting with a few leg kicks.

"be honest"

meaning I should agree with you

I could agree with you but then we’d both be wrong

I can say, with out much doubt based on your comments, my experience seems to be quite different from yours.

Mike, one of my teachers long ago...talks about the burning hand

" The “Burning Hand,” was Mr. Long’s signature technique, and he was quite open about teaching it those who wanted to learn it. It was an “internal” specialty, different from “external” pushing power. More a slap than a hit, Mr. Long would sometimes place a phone book on your shoulder and give it one of those “slaps.”

You could feel two things coming through the phone book. The first was a push (the external component) that would set you back a foot or two. That was to be expected, but it wasn’t anything to worry about. It was the second thing that was nasty... a sharp, stinging sensation that penetrated your shoulder.

This second force seemed to follow the more external, first force. It seemed to lag behind. But the external force was then gone in an instant, while the stinging second force stayed -- and grew.

Now, I am not a gullible person, and it was going to take more than a trickle of this second force through a phone book to convince me that this slapping stuff was anything much.

And so it was that Mr. Long deflected my punch with a slap…just a little too hard. And as a result, my arm locked out in front of me, as if frozen, while a searing pain moved through the flexor muscle compartment of my forearm.

My jaw clenched shut as I could feel beads of sweat forming on my face. Mr. Long continued to yack away at the other students, unaware of my predicament. I was struggling to breath, actually. I couldn’t move, actually. "

Personal anecdotes are meaningless. For example, I knew a boxer who was able to punch his opponent and anyone within 3 metres would be knocked out. The impact point of his fist would emit a slightly blue light as they struck-likely Cherenkov radiation! He waved his fist at me from across a boxing gym and I felt faint. ‘My jaw clenched shut as I could feel beads of sweat forming on my face.’ His gloves alone were so dangerous that they had to be handled by two separate teams dressed in biohazard suits, as touching two gloves at a time
would sterilise men and make women barren.

I think we’ve reached an empasse so I’ll bow out of this very stimulating conversation. Thank you, I really enjoyed it.