Non compliant training in Wing Chun.

[drop bear115 54]

I enquired at a wing chun class about resistance training that tries to replicate situational reaction.

Things like:

A person attacking you outside the gym may:

• Throw looping hooks.
• Rush in and clinch.
• Tackle your legs.
• Shove you backwards.
• Step away instead of maintaining contact.
• Swing wildly or unpredictably.

The answer I was given was that self defence in the class is taught and trained through chi sau and bong lap.

Am I wrong in thinking that’s it still wing chun defending against wing chun?

Do. Amateur boxing. The concepts are similar but you will get live training with people who understand yhe subject.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

I really do think boxing is the ultimate combat art. A competent boxer (which can take a few years to achieve) is unassailable. They can bob and weave, they can take a punch and wow! they can deliver devastating blows. Forget all this Far Eastern stuff!

 

[windwalker099115 145]

I really do think boxing is the ultimate combat art. A competent boxer (which can take a few years to achieve) is unassailable. They can bob and weave, they can take a punch and wow! they can deliver devastating blows. Forget all this Far Eastern stuff!

Agree.

Had a student whose father ran Newman's Gym in the Tenderloin, San Francisco—a famous boxing spot. He asked me to work with his son, an amateur boxer, because he felt Taiji push hands had something to offer for clinching. A functional skill he thought could transfer in a certain context.

The boxing mindset: does it work under pressure?

Boxing a method. Continually tested, refined through competition, trained for clear outcomes.

Many TMAs? More focused on interpretation, lineage, and principle than ongoing public pressure testing.

Boxing is what TMA used to be— money keeps it that way. Paid events force evolution. Results. Financial pressure creates a meritocracy.

Traditional arts, for the most part, don't have that engine.

Doesn't mean they've got nothing left. Sometimes the old stuff still holds gems—
Like many things depends on what one is looking for...expected context for useage.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

As long as one doesn’t believe TMA are ‘highly effective’, magical indeed and accept there are more effective fighting systems, you can enjoy their cool looking moves, their deep history, cultural aspects and spirituality if that’s your bag.

I love TMA but I accept them for what they are.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I really do think boxing is the ultimate combat art. A competent boxer (which can take a few years to achieve) is unassailable.

Dedicated boxers are formidable! No argument there. The "ultimate" combat art, perhaps. "Unassailable", no. There are limitations to their abilities when faced with attacks outside their skill set.

They can bob and weave

While they can bob and weave making a headshot very elusive, their bottom half at this time is more stationary. Groin, thighs and knees remain quite vulnerable to kicks and knees strikes. Boxers can also be subject to sweeps, takedowns and other grappling at close quarters. Since boxers are not allowed to strike from the rear, taking their back is a karate skill that can put a boxer at a disadvantage.

To be objective, all combat systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Knowing how to avoid the former and capitalize on the latter is key.

 

[windwalker099115 145]

I love TMA but I accept them for what they are.

In my experience, what they are is what one makes them to be, provided that one understands the context and which they expect them to be functional in.

People cannot go to a seniors taiji group in the park, expecting to compete in the octagon.

On the other hand, those tai chi practitioners, expecting to compete, may find that they have not reached a level sufficient enough through their practice to do so, feeling they have through their interactions in the park.

“It’s like a parachute that one packs. Bad time to find out you packed it wrong on the way down.. “
mike staples

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Dedicated boxers are formidable! No argument there. The "ultimate" combat art, perhaps. "Unassailable", no. There are limitations to their abilities when faced with attacks outside their skill set.

While they can bob and weave making a headshot very elusive, their bottom half at this time is more stationary. Groin, thighs and knees remain quite vulnerable to kicks and knees strikes. Boxers can also be subject to sweeps, takedowns and other grappling at close quarters. Since boxers are not allowed to strike from the rear, taking their back is a karate skill that can put a boxer at a disadvantage.

To be objective, all combat systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Knowing how to avoid the former and capitalize on the latter is key.

I don’t think it’d take them long to realise TMA use their legs and how to ‘punch away’ that advantage.

I would rather face a seasoned Karateka than I would a seasoned boxer.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I would rather face a seasoned Karateka than I would a seasoned boxer.

Me too.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Me too.

Chuck Norris or Mike Tyson?

 

[windwalker099115 145]

I don’t think it’d take them long to realise TMA use their legs and how to ‘punch away’ that advantage.

I would rather face a seasoned Karateka than I would a seasoned boxer.

Interesting

. Wonder if people can see how they’re thinking has been conditioned, limited by their practice instead of limitless and free.

Somewhere in peoples minds, the idea of rules, fairness, comes into play.

There is a story of a tea master who had to face a samurai. The tea master survived the encounter not because he had mastered the sword, but because he had mastered his craft , his actions arising through it.

If one’s practice does not allow freedom from itself. It becomes part of a limiting conditioning, onto itself.

constrained by the environment that shapes it.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Interesting

. Wonder if people can see how they’re thinking has been conditioned, limited by their practice instead of limitless and free.

But one has to be realistic. My experience of seeing boxers train and fight compared to Karateka has informed my opinion.

There is a story of a tea master who had to face a samurai. The tea master survived the encounter not because he had mastered the sword, but because he had mastered his craft , his actions arising through it.

I think we all know the untrained (in swordsmanship) tea master, who is good with a ladle , tea scoop and chagama (kettle) has a very slim chance of defeating the swordsman. It’s a nice allegorical story suggesting that throwing oneself wholeheartedly into anything might disinhibit the spirit and mind/body and one might not end up as sashimi!

If one’s practice does not allow freedom from itself. It becomes part of a limiting conditioning, onto itself. constrained by the environment that shapes it.

It’s a nice idea…the type of rhetoric spouted by mystics, but they’ve not likely had a punch in the face by a boxer!

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

My experience of seeing boxers train and fight compared to Karateka has informed my opinion.

Understandable. Most likely the boxers have seriously trained on a regular basis for full contact competition whereas the karate-ka most likely has not (several reasons for this). Careful not to mix apples with oranges. Training methodology is as big a part of this discussion as is the system being trained. With similar intensity of training, the gap between karate and boxing narrows.

Many more people train karate than boxing and with a bigger pool, more variety of motives and goals is found. TMA is multi-dimensional, serious combat being just one of them whereas in boxing this is the main concern.

 

[windwalker099115 145]

It’s a nice idea…the type of rhetoric spouted by mystics, but they’ve not likely had a punch in the face by a boxer!

Are you speaking for "they," or for yourself? Should we care what "they" do ?

Rhetoric aside, I've worked with people who boxed—agreeing not to kick them—while using Tibetan White Crane in my younger years. FWIW, many people watching what is called "long arm " assume it can't work as a method.

"They" were wrong.

I think we all know the untrained (in swordsmanship) tea master, who is good with a ladle , tea scoop and chagama (kettle) has a very slim chance of defeating the swordsman. It’s a nice allegorical story suggesting that throwing oneself wholeheartedly into anything might disinhibit the spirit and mind/body and one might not end up as sashimi!

must be a different story....the one I read..The tea master did not defeat the samurai.
The samurai chose not to fight...

Another story ,,,,

Neko no Myōjutsu (猫の妙術)

The narrative features a swordsman called Shōken who is beset by a pesky rat. After the neighborhood cats fail to chase the rat away, the swordsman himself tries his hand at getting rid of the rat. Failing miserably himself, he calls on the help of a cat “widely known for her mysterious virtue as the most able rat-catcher.” This cat catches the rat with ease, and that evening all the cats get together to discuss the days events and the art of fighting rats.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

must be a different story....the one I read..The tea master did not defeat the samurai.
The samurai chose not to fight...

That's the version I know as well. The Samurai, seeing the tea master's calm spirit and lack of fear in the face of mortal combat, decided it was a fight he didn't really need to engage in.

This cat catches the rat with ease, and that evening all the cats get together to discuss the days events and the art of fighting rats.

I spent some time at "cat houses" but did not learn anything about the art of fighting. It was still educational.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

With similar intensity of training, the gap between karate and boxing narrows.

I can only think of that Brazilian Lyoto Carvalho Machida as an example of this. But the point is TMA are not as effective in self-defence as a consequence of this. After 3 years of their usual training, a boxing student will likely get the better of the TMA.

Many more people train karate than boxing and with a bigger pool, more variety of motives and goals is found. TMA is multi-dimensional, serious combat being just one of them whereas in boxing this is the main concern.

Yes and that’s why boxing is a better way of defending oneself.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I can only think of that Brazilian Lyoto Carvalho Machida as an example of this. But the point is TMA are not as effective in self-defence as a consequence of this. After 3 years of their usual training, a boxing student will likely get the better of the TMA.

Yes and that’s why boxing is a better way of defending oneself.

I've seen many top boxing matches over the years yet never saw one boxer deal with a rear wrist grab. Is it because it's against their rules and so they have never trained for it? Wouldn't a karate-ka be better at dealing with such self-defense encounters? And if you and a boxer had long sticks handy in a confrontation, wouldn't you have an edge?

Again, I'm not touting TMA over boxing. Just pointing out that there is a limit to what boxing can do.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I've seen many top boxing matches over the years yet never saw one boxer deal with a rear wrist grab. Is it because it's against their rules and so they have never trained for it? Wouldn't a karate-ka be better at dealing with such self-defense encounters? And if you and a boxer had long sticks handy in a confrontation, wouldn't you have an edge?

Again, I'm not touting TMA over boxing. Just pointing out that there is a limit to what boxing can do.

Does it really come down to what STYLES can do though? Styles only exist as manifest through the people who practice them. And if we're talking about people, we're talking about a well-conditioned, pain tolerant, experienced fighter... with a stick. I don't think we can assume that familiarity with a stick beats familiarity with getting hit hard, fighting through pain and fatigue, facing a highly motivated opponent, etc.

Stick fighting can be refined obviously (says the FMA exponent), but baseline "damage doing" with a stick is pretty intuitive.

I'm not saying, either, that no karateka has those experiences. Some do, it's true.

If you accept that a viable defense against a wrist grab is to punch someone in the teeth, then yeah a boxer has some recourse.

Whether a boxer has specifically trained for a wrist grab or not is, in my view, less relevant than what someone can achieve through physicality, calm under pressure, and a well-trained sense of how to hit things very hard.

I'm not touting boxing over karate either. I just don't think it's as reductive as we're tempted to make it.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Does it really come down to what STYLES can do though? Styles only exist as manifest through the people who practice them. And if we're talking about people, we're talking about a well-conditioned, pain tolerant, experienced fighter... with a stick. I don't think we can assume that familiarity with a stick beats familiarity with getting hit hard, fighting through pain and fatigue, facing a highly motivated opponent, etc.

Stick fighting can be refined obviously (says the FMA exponent), but baseline "damage doing" with a stick is pretty intuitive.

I'm not saying, either, that no karateka has those experiences. Some do, it's true.

If you accept that a viable defense against a wrist grab is to punch someone in the teeth, then yeah a boxer has some recourse.

Whether a boxer has specifically trained for a wrist grab or not is, in my view, less relevant than what someone can achieve through physicality, calm under pressure, and a well-trained sense of how to hit things very hard.

I'm not touting boxing over karate either. I just don't think it's as reductive as we're tempted to make it.

Just to clarify a couple of points: I specified rear wrist grab, implying the boxer is being attacked from behind, out of position to simply punch. Boxing does not train for grabs or rear attacks. There will be hesitation (or ineffective instinctual resistance) before reaction. It also does not train against kicks, groin strikes or takedowns. Boxers only train for techniques allowed in their rule set since it's a sport. A number of self-defense situations are not addressed by boxing rules.

The other point regarding the sticks is that the "you" I used in my post referred to Gyakuto, specifically, being trained in iai sword techniques. IMO, if both he and a boxer were armed with sword-like sticks, the boxer would be at a disadvantage.

I fully agree that controlled mental bearing, rugged physicality and ruthless determination play major roles in any combat situation. Most karate schools do not focus on these attributes enough, certainly not as much as competitive boxers.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

I've seen many top boxing matches over the years yet never saw one boxer deal with a rear wrist grab. Is it because it's against their rules and so they have never trained for it? Wouldn't a karate-ka be better at dealing with such self-defense encounters? And if you and a boxer had long sticks handy in a confrontation, wouldn't you have an edge?

I think a boxer would just turn around (cos they’re much stronger than karateka due to their training methods) and punch their assailant in the gob, so bleedin’ hard their bowels would open involuntarily. .

 

[ap Oweyn]

I think a boxer would just turn around (cos they’re much stronger than karateka due to their training methods) and punch their assailant in the gob, so bleedin’ hard their bowels would open involuntarily. .

I'm thinking that's a distinct possibility (and horrifying visual) myself.