Non compliant training in Wing Chun.

[Rollo06]

I enquired at a wing chun class about resistance training that tries to replicate situational reaction.

Things like:

A person attacking you outside the gym may:

• Throw looping hooks.
• Rush in and clinch.
• Tackle your legs.
• Shove you backwards.
• Step away instead of maintaining contact.
• Swing wildly or unpredictably.

The answer I was given was that self defence in the class is taught and trained through chi sau and bong lap.

Am I wrong in thinking that’s it still wing chun defending against wing chun?

 

[skribs114 134]

What you will find is that most martial arts think this way. They have the way they fight, and their self-defense is largely against the way that they fight.

 

[Rollo06]

What you will find is that most martial arts think this way. They have the way they fight, and their self-defense is largely against the way that they fight.

So is it a case of any martial art is better than none, and just plod on with it and see if I can figure out for myself what I can make work? Or could that prove to be futile? Because in truth, the odds of something dangerous happening is rare. And I usually have a huge German shepherd with me. But I would like to learn something that can give me an advantage.

Or should I just move on and look for something a bit more dynamic with simpler tools. If I can find anything in my area that is..

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Does your German Shepherd have combat art skills?

If you want to have a combat advantage, I’d suggest learning boxing/kick boxing.

Am I wrong in thinking that’s it still wing chun defending against wing chun?

Most combat art’s idea of self-defence include defence against a hook punch, a wrist grab or a grab from the rear; truly useless.

 

[Rollo06]

Does your German Shepherd have combat art skills?

She doesn’t need any..

 

[skribs114 134]

So is it a case of any martial art is better than none, and just plod on with it and see if I can figure out for myself what I can make work? Or could that prove to be futile? Because in truth, the odds of something dangerous happening is rare. And I usually have a huge German shepherd with me. But I would like to learn something that can give me an advantage.

Or should I just move on and look for something a bit more dynamic with simpler tools. If I can find anything in my area that is..

It's really up to you. I am a subscriber to the theory that you mentioned: any martial art is better than none. There are some that are supposedly better than others, but it really depends on your mindset and what the situation is.

Some martial arts have higher fidelity sparring than others. Combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, and jiu-jitsu fall into this camp. But they often fall into the trap of thinking of fights as rules-based competitions and not focus as much on soft skills or theoretically unwinnable situations. And then you even have folks who are very skilled in these arts lose a bar fight (see BJ Penn).

But then you have other arts with lower fidelity sparring, or even techniques with no sparring, and there's anecdotal evidence of using them in self-defense.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I am a subscriber to the theory that you mentioned: any martial art is better than none. There are some that are supposedly better than others, but it really depends on your mindset and what the situation is.

Yes, any MA is better than none. And "yes" to mindset. IMO this is one of the most important factors!

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

I agree that something is better than nothing except self-defense classes. I think they give unreasonable levels of confidence that an be dangerous. Combat artists of several years training will be able to punch and kick pretty well compared to a muggle, but a 10 session self-defense specific course…? No.

 

[skribs114 134]

I agree that something is better than nothing except self-defense classes. I think they give unreasonable levels of confidence that an be dangerous. Combat artists of several years training will be able to punch and kick pretty well compared to a muggle, but a 10 session self-defense specific course…? No.

It doesn't take that long to teach most people how to do things at a "good enough" level to be better than the average muggle.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

It doesn't take that long to teach most people how to do things at a "good enough" level to be better than the average muggle.

And how do you assess that? If somebody becomes overconfident after learning a few wrist grab defenses, choke releases etc, it can be very dangerous. They may put themselves in dangerous situation thinking they’re well equipped.

 

[skribs114 134]

And how do you assess that? If somebody becomes overconfident after learning a few wrist grab defenses, choke releases etc, it can be very dangerous. They may put themselves in dangerous situation thinking they’re well equipped.

Because I've seen what a 1-stripe white belt can do to a 0-stripe white belt in BJJ, and it doesn't take several years to get your first stripe.

Because I've seen how quickly people can learn the basics of how to punch and kick in Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and cardio kickboxing.

I was arguing against the claim that you can't learn how to punch and kick properly in 10 sessions, but that it will take several years. Which is patently false.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 145]

I've seen some that have absolutely provided people with no self-defense skills. Had to do one at a hospital I worked at, and I did a whole write-up on how utterly horrible it was. But people incorrectly felt very confident in what they could do afterwards.

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Because I've seen what a 1-stripe white belt can do to a 0-stripe white belt in BJJ, and it doesn't take several years to get your first stripe.

So you’re equating ‘stripes’ with street self-defense efficacy?

Because I've seen how quickly people can learn the basics of how to punch and kick in Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and cardio kickboxing.

I was arguing against the claim that you can't learn how to punch and kick properly in 10 sessions, but that it will take several years. Which is patently false.

Do you run self-defense courses, by any chance

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Because I've seen how quickly people can learn the basics of how to punch

This is really a loaded statement. How does one define "how to punch?" There is a continuum of elements:

Making a fist and extending the arm with good elbow position.
Having a balanced posture.
Adding some hip for power.
Not being too tense, losing speed.

The above are minimal basic physical elements that lead to being able to execute a punch that when landed will cause an effective result. Not too hard up to this point. Even an untrained seven-year-old can flail his arm and give you a bloody nose. So, in this respect, one can learn how to do a basic punch in ten sessions.

One can learn to drive in ten lessons: Knowing how to start the car, put on the seat belt, how to tell the gas from the brake pedal and proper pressure to apply for smooth operation, how the steering wheel affects direction, etc. These skills will allow me to hopefully get from point A to B in many cases. But what about parallel parking into a tight space, judging needed braking distance, safely avoiding someone cutting you off or driving 65mph on the freeway? These skills will take more than ten lessons.

Throwing an effective punch with a good chance of landing also takes more than ten lessons. Timing, closing distance, avoiding potential blocks, being able to minimize possible counters, tactics. It may take a year to be somewhat competent in these skills. Not to mention having a mindset that lets you execute a punch at all under heavy pressure - this may take years.

The general concept of how to punch can be quickly learned, but safely landing it is another matter. Learning to punch is a progressive continuum of skills (physical, mental, spiritual). At which point does one label one's given position on this continuum basic, intermediate, advanced, expert?

Do you run self-defense courses, by any chance

It seems you and Gyakuto are using different deffinitions of "learning a punch." As this may be a subjective continuum, you can both be right!

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

I think we're talking about two different things here. Perhaps skribs is just talking about having the basics to throw a decently correct punch, and the others are talking about learning a punch in the way that takes a lifetime, that takes in all sorts of things, much like learning to use a paintbrush or a guitar.

 

[windwalker099115 145]

The answer I was given was that self defence in the class is taught and trained through chi sau and bong lap.

Am I wrong in thinking that’s it still wing chun defending against wing chun?

Depends...
The answer given was correct from the teachers view point...One I would agree with..
The basic idea of teaching principles of movement allowing the practitioner the freedom to find the usage
depending on context.

Depending on ones level.
The idea is to take the sensitivity, structure, and relaxation from Chi Sau and apply them freely. The drill is Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun to build the internal software. The test is Wing Chun vs. anything to see if the software works. .

We can say the ideas to first understand yourself and through this understanding one can understand others..

Chris Chan, my first exposer to Wing Chin as a teenager, although not something that caught my eye..
Had some high school friends that trained under him back in the 70s..

 

[Gyakuto115 124]

Look, I think there’ll be the odd person who learned to punch/kick competently quite quickly. They are probably the ones who don’t need self-defense classes because they can run fast too !

But generally these skills take years to hone to the point they’re sufficient to stop an aggressive, non-compliant assailant.

I’d rather be punched in the face by, say Dragonfly (a self admitted beginner ) than isshinryuronin! Neither would be particularly fun, but one would be considerably less fun

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree that something is better than nothing except self-defense classes. I think they give unreasonable levels of confidence that an be dangerous. Combat artists of several years training will be able to punch and kick pretty well compared to a muggle, but a 10 session self-defense specific course…? No.

I agree with you on this. I've taught seminars that were aimed at muggles, but I tried to give them clarity on what could be achieved in a few classes. Some of the time was spent on avoidance tactics (which are more mental, so more can be taken home from them), some was spent on basic movement (how to keep control of yourself), and some was spent on some basic foundational techinques. That last part was to give them an introduction, give them a few things they could practice on their own if they wanted, and let them see how little difference a single training session made. I also did a few small demos, usually having a student (my wife if she was handy) demo, so they could see what it looked like when it wasn't me (and I was larger than any of the students).

I got a lot of students out of those (which was the aim), and they tended to stay longer than students who started by walking in while I was teaching. I like to think that's because they knew before they joined that training wouldn't be magic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've seen some that have absolutely provided people with no self-defense skills. Had to do one at a hospital I worked at, and I did a whole write-up on how utterly horrible it was. But people incorrectly felt very confident in what they could do afterwards.

I felt that way about classes I saw that included things like how to use a kubotan. Pretty worthless if you're not training with it, and not particularly useful unless you're incorporating it into skills you can use wihtout it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

"learning a punch."

I like the punch in this video at 2.18-2.25 for the following reasons.

- His body has good unification. When he moves, all body parts move. When he stops, all body parts stop.
- He includes footwork with his punch (dynamic punch). His punch and footwork are combined into 1 fast move.
- He uses monkey stance with 70-30 distribution. This is the most aggressive stance for punch.
- His punch shows both speed and power at the same time.