Ninjutsu or Krav Maga?

[omark]

Hi everyone, I just registered here. I'm Mark, a 21-year-old university student from Hungary. For a year I've been "informally" trained in kodokan ju jitsu: I was the only person interested in my dormitory so I sort of got a private teacher who introduced me to some grapples mainly white and yellow belt material.

From this September I'd like to take on a course and the final decision comes down to Ninjutsu and Krav Maga. I've read about both arts (more about ninjutsu), and although I know that I must make my own decision, I'd really appreciate the comments of those who are more familiar with these arts and their "pros and cons".

What I perceived -- and like -- about ninjutsu so far is:
- the presence and appreciation of tradition.
- the mentality (not teaching techniques but the correct interpretation of principles).
- the presence of several weapons (the bo staff is a personal favourite); a potential dojo claims to teach members using even ties, belts, umbrellas and even keychains. I think they are associated to original weapons, e.g. keychains to the kakute. What do you think?
- the application of grapples and pressure points.

However, I am not sure whether techniques are most efficient in modern situations (which contradicts the dojo's claim above).

What I like about krav maga is the cruel practicality and that it's tailor-made to modern times, however I don't know about any weapons training aside from disarming the opponent.

I know I contradict myself at some points and haven't stated criteria yet, that's why I need the opinions and testimonials of those who are more experienced.

Thank you in advance!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Try JUDO...it can be more than you think...the Gentle Art..

Krav-Maga...from what we understand it to be...is more realistic training for combat...or streets..

Read Loren Christensen book - Anything Goes...a good read on realistic fighting...JUDO- because it is "hands on training" ...from the beginning..and can be use safely within the laws...yet can be deadly too...NOT sports Judo either..

Aloha,. just my thoughts on this....

 

[Omar B]

Depends on what you are learning martial arts for man. Krav Maga is a good, stripped down style that's great for self defense and can be learned pretty quickly. "Ninjutsu" is a lot more involved and takes a lot longer to get decent at (and a lot longer to get good).

 

[still learning]

Depends on what you are learning martial arts for man. Krav Maga is a good, stripped down style that's great for self defense and can be learned pretty quickly. "Ninjutsu" is a lot more involved and takes a lot longer to get decent at (and a lot longer to get good).

Hello, If the above is very accurate? ....than Krav Maga is the way to go...

Martial arts should be simple, easy to learn, easy to remember and very effective....AND should not take years to learn....!

Just ask yourself...how often do you get into a physcial fight? VS...a verbal fight.....or NO problems...

Keep things simple.....most people go thru life...uneffective..by the world...

Off course being prepared....is a good idea.........Aloha,

PS: One of the keys in MA's ....is doing the same things over and over..to make it a part of you....(unconcious mind) ....simpler the better....
To catch a ball? ....hey catch...instand reactions...how long did it take you to remember this? .....punch is coming...how long to duck/block and counter?

 

[Hawke]

Greetings Mark,

Welcome to Martial Talk.

Will you be willing to take a look at the other arts around you?

You might find a fantastic instructor that may surprise you. The instructor will be more to your benefit than the style.

We have stickies at the way top that might help you.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Howdy, and welcome.

As Omar said, it will take a -long- time before you get good enough at ninjutsu to rely on it for self defense. If that is not a problem for you, then my advice is to try both and see which you like best.

- the mentality (not teaching techniques but the correct interpretation of principles).

That depends on the organization. What you describe is the bujinkan way. in genbukan, you will learn the principles by learning a fixed set techniques per grade AND learning the principles behind those techniques. And you will repeat the techniques over and over until you know every little detail. Reportedly, Jinenkan has an even bigger focus on the basics.

- the presence of several weapons (the bo staff is a personal favourite); a potential dojo claims to teach members using even ties, belts, umbrellas and even keychains. I think they are associated to original weapons, e.g. keychains to the kakute. What do you think?

Personally, I think you should try 'em both and pick the one you like best. Because if you want to become good at it, you will spend a lot of your free time practising. Sacrificing your free time to something that you don't like is not very motivational.

Have fun.

 

[Omar B]

Personally, I never saw weapons training much of a selling point. Yeah, I sound crazy but hear me out. I don't carry a weapon, never have, don't think I ever will. I've trained in some weapons, but for me I prefer H2H.

 

[girlbug2]

Thus far at my level (3) I have learned various weapons disarming techniques, but also, through seminars at my school, I have the opportunity to learn a little more about using weapons-guns, knives, stick fighting, even cane fighting. More of this is also covered at higher levels of Krav training.

In general, anything that is practical for self defense is taught, stolen shamelessly from other martial arts. KM is designed to be quick to learn, by a variety of people of all sizes and ages. Only you can decide how important that is to you, versus the traditional feel of another martial art.

But, a point often raised on other threads: find a good teacher, one that you "mesh" well with if that makes any sense. Regardless of the art, IMO the teacher is the key to how well you will learn. Take advantage of the free first class that most schools will let you try out, get a feel for the instructors and the vibe of the place. Then make your decision.

 

[K-man]

Hi Mark, welcome. It depends what you want to get out of the training.
If you are concerned for your safety and feel you need SD skills now, then I would probably lean to the KM. Very practical and straight to the point. If you are looking for a MA journey, and you have the time, I would learn Ninjutsu. I could see myself training Ninjutsu for many years but feel I might get bored with KM after just a few. And remember, nothing is forever. When you move on in a few years those schools may not be available, but any skills you learn will be transferable to another MA .:asian:

 

[omark]

Wow, thanks for all the advices! I should have been able to come to these conclusions on my own but sadly I have a tendency to over-complicate matters due to my "greed" for knowledge.
This one will be a really busy semester, so I think in the short run KM might be a more reasonable choice, but I know I'll wind up doing both arts as soon as possible.

Depends on what you are learning martial arts for man.

The situation is a bit schizophrenic because I want to be as good as possible as fast as possible, but I also feel real appreciation for the self-improvement ninjutsu offers.

Will you be willing to take a look at the other arts around you?

I think I'll stick to these two, I have a gut feeling they will be good for me, just like when I first picked up a guitar years ago.

As Omar said, it will take a -long- time before you get good enough at ninjutsu to rely on it for self defense.
What you describe is the bujinkan way.

I think tough challenges are certificates of one's character. I also learn Arabic because it's a nice, although quite hard language.
BTW in my city there are bujinkan dojos only. They have connections with people like Mr McCarthy, Armand Cousergue, Dean Rostohar (I don't know if they ring any bells), and one of them even has a photo with the Soke. However, a so-called Bujinkan Shibumi Ninjutsu dojo seems to be a hoax: a German university teacher (called nescafe7777) commented their video a year ago on Youtube, calling this dojo a joke because a student progressed from 1 dan to 4 dan in a year because his teacher needed money...

Just ask yourself...how often do you get into a physcial fight?

I have never been in a physical fight. I think it's partly due to my physical appearance; I'm not saying I'm Schwarzenegger, but I'm not the skinniest guy on the block either. And this is coupled with a height of around 188 cm.

Personally, I never saw weapons training much of a selling point.

I understand what you mean. However if you think about it, in almost every situation you are surrounded by potential weapons: beer bottles, cutlery, umbrellas-ellas-ellas, shoelaces, jackets etc. I don't want to rely solely on these either, but they can be a nice surplus in one's repertoire.

 

[nitflegal]

Two things to add; First, it's important to note that it is highly unlikely you'll be studying ninjutsu in actuality. I suspect there will be a lot more Kukishinden ryu in your studies, as an example, than Togakure ryu. Of course, I still say I'm going to ninjutsu so I'm a huge hypocrite!

I will respectfully disagree with the post above about needing a simpler art. In the Bujinkan, I have certainly seen dojos that were disorganized and you truly would take years to spend enough time on any one technique to be able to use it. IMHO, those are lousy schools. If the Bujinkan school is a good one a beginner will focus on basics for the first year or so anyway, so they actually will get pretty good at a relatively small number of basic techniques (zempo geri, step through punches, jabs, basic blocks, etc) over that period. From my observation, we've got guys in our school who studied nothing until a year and half or so ago and they have become quite capable in the basics. As a former bouncer in college, they would hold their own in a brawl in my opinion.

The advantage to an art that goes beyond this is you can keep adding new techniques and forms of movement taijutsu after the first three years or what have you. Keeps the mind flexible and builds on the basics. Look, I'm weird and enjoy doing sanshin and kihon happo, however if I was doing nothing but practicing the same techniques I learned in '93 I'd have quit from boredom. Maybe a flaw but there you go. I've long believed that a true martial art is one that has a solid core of basics that will get you competent in the first year or two but is deep enough that you continue to learn and develop for as long as you train and not just polish a few techniques until you breach to the soft steel.

Matt

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi omark,

To weigh in here, I'm going to take your first post and see what that gives us, if you don't mind. But I will also preface what I say here with the advice that the biggest influence on your training is not going to be one art or another, but the instructor and school you study from. Okay, that said:

Hi everyone, I just registered here. I'm Mark, a 21-year-old university student from Hungary. For a year I've been "informally" trained in kodokan ju jitsu: I was the only person interested in my dormitory so I sort of got a private teacher who introduced me to some grapples mainly white and yellow belt material.

I'm assuming you are actually refering to Kodokan Judo here, it hasn't been refered to as jujutsu for a very long time (140 years or so...), originally being known as Kano-ha, later taking the name Judo (1882 or so). Still, that is probably going to be closer to the Ninjutsu rather than Krav Maga, but there are still differences. In fact, it is said that when Takamatsu Sensei first saw Judo being performed, he was horrified at the way they threw people (bending and arching their backs).


From this September I'd like to take on a course and the final decision comes down to Ninjutsu and Krav Maga. I've read about both arts (more about ninjutsu), and although I know that I must make my own decision, I'd really appreciate the comments of those who are more familiar with these arts and their "pros and cons".

Cool. I've taken some Krav Maga courses, and teach Ninjutsu. Let's see how we go.


What I perceived -- and like -- about ninjutsu so far is:
- the presence and appreciation of tradition.

So the question would be why that is important to you? You are not going to be involved in an altercation with a couple of samurai wielding su-yari or tachi (spears and swords), so what is it that the tradition means to you? Personally, I enjoy the historical link to previous generations, but I recognise that the techniques need to be modified in order for the classical tactics and strategies to be applied.

- the mentality (not teaching techniques but the correct interpretation of principles).

This will come down to the individual teacher and school, really. You are far more likely to find a focus on principles and concepts in a Bujinkan school, rather than a Genbukan or Jinenkan school, but they will be far more focused on getting the technical aspects absolutely correct. Not saying that the Bujinkan won't give you the technical skills, just that the way they do it, and how they focus will be different. You will also find a variety of approaches in different Krav Maga schools along the same lines, some will be very technical, others will focus on constant drills and concepts.

- the presence of several weapons (the bo staff is a personal favourite); a potential dojo claims to teach members using even ties, belts, umbrellas and even keychains. I think they are associated to original weapons, e.g. keychains to the kakute. What do you think?

If bo is a favourite, you will be hard pressed to find a Krav Maga school that will teach it. The more common weapons there will be geared to a military feel, as that is where Krav Maga comes from. As for the adaptability of weapon-concepts from the classical tools (kakute, hanbo, etc) to modern items, you are more likely to find that in a Bujinkan school. But again, it will come down to the instructor (I think I mentioned that, right?)

- the application of grapples and pressure points.

There will be some limited grappling in Krav Maga, but more of a focus in the Ninjustu arts. Japanese arts are dominantly grappling-heavy for a variety of reasons. One of the original source arts for Krav Maga was Shotokan Karate, not so grappling focused.


However, I am not sure whether techniques are most efficient in modern situations (which contradicts the dojo's claim above).

Bluntly, pretty much every martial art school claims to be street effective, even if the instructor has no real understanding of the realities of modern violence as encountered today, and are simply repeating what they were taught, under faith that their instructor knew what they were talking about. Unfortunately, the previous instructor may have had as little, or even less understanding. So take that claim with a grain of salt.

To check, find out whether they adapt their techniques for modern-style attacks. If you are unsure, one simple example would be a lapel-grab and punch. Classically, this is often done with a left grab, then stepping forward with the right foot as you punch to the head. In a modern attack, it is often a rear punch, and this changes distance, available targets, timing, and many other aspects. There is a lot more to it than this, but if such simple things as the type of attacks commonly encountered are not understood and trained against, then I would be a little doubtful as to the veracity of the claim. Training the old scroll patterns is very good for gaining an insight into the body mechanics of the art, the strategies and tactics, the philosophy of the system and more, but the old defences simply won't work against a modern street attack. And you shouldn't expect them to, as that is not what they are designed for. But they will give a way to get realistic defences, and a good instructor will be able to bring those out for you.


What I like about krav maga is the cruel practicality and that it's tailor-made to modern times, however I don't know about any weapons training aside from disarming the opponent.

Krav Maga is tailor made for the Israeli army. Take note there, not street defence, the Israeli army. Very different approach. As to "cruel practicality", I don't know that it is any more cruel than anything else I have encountered, trained in, or researched. I have gone through some classical techniques that are far more painful than anything I have encountered elsewhere... It is certainly a stream-lined approach, and a very good one at that. It will not have the depth of a Ninjutsu school, though, so the big decision appears to be if you just want the confidence, or do you want to learn a deep, rich collection of knowledge? I would also ask how often you find yourself in situations which are violent, or are at high risk of turning violent? If is isn't very often, then being "very good very quickly" is an ego thing, based in a (slightly irrational) fear. If you are regularly in violent places with a high likelihood of being assaulted or attacked, then go for the quicker of the two.

Then your next post:

Wow, thanks for all the advices! I should have been able to come to these conclusions on my own but sadly I have a tendency to over-complicate matters due to my "greed" for knowledge.
This one will be a really busy semester, so I think in the short run KM might be a more reasonable choice, but I know I'll wind up doing both arts as soon as possible.

Doing both arts is not a good idea, they will contradict each other to a great degree, with different power sources, mechanics, philosophies, styles of movement, and more. Pick one, then after you have a reasonable amount of experience (at least 3-4 years, bare minimum, I would recommend at least 10 if you are taking the Ninjutsu option), you could look around at other arts. But you may find that at that point you don't want/need to.

The situation is a bit schizophrenic because I want to be as good as possible as fast as possible, but I also feel real appreciation for the self-improvement ninjutsu offers.

Unfortunately, you won't really have an understanding of what each art truly offers until yo start training. A good Ninjutsu instructor could get you good, fast. And as for self-improvement, well, that is a very vague statement. And that will be more up to you and your approach rather than thinking that just because you are studying Ninjutsu you will get "self-improvement" (whatever that means to you at the moment).

I think tough challenges are certificates of one's character. I also learn Arabic because it's a nice, although quite hard language.

Arabic, well done. Not an easy language. I had a Lebanese girlfriend at one point, and she spent two years giving me a very basic understanding of the language. Don't remember anywhere enough anymore, unfortunately...

BTW in my city there are bujinkan dojos only. They have connections with people like Mr McCarthy, Armand Cousergue, Dean Rostohar (I don't know if they ring any bells), and one of them even has a photo with the Soke. However, a so-called Bujinkan Shibumi Ninjutsu dojo seems to be a hoax: a German university teacher (called nescafe7777) commented their video a year ago on Youtube, calling this dojo a joke because a student progressed from 1 dan to 4 dan in a year because his teacher needed money...

Brian McCarthy split from the Bujinkan in the mid-90s, so by going to him you will restrict your involvement in the Bujinkan proper. That is not a way of dissuading you, just a statement. Everything I have heard of his schools indicate that the training there is very good, and you would frankly have the same issues if you were to join our schools in Australia (we split from the Bujinkan about 8 years ago). Arnoud Cousergue is one of the Shiho Tenno, the big four European instructors, any contact with him is certainly going to be current in terms of Bujinkan approach.

As for the issue of rank, well, that is frankly not an uncommon thing in the Bujinkan. It is in fact a major part of why people such as Brian McCarthy split in the first place. The thing to remember about the rankings is that there is no "standard" in the martial arts, it is always up to the authority in question (in this case, Hatsumi Sensei) as to what standards are applied and enforced. And in an organisation which has 15 Dan grades (for ease of explanation), and the majority of those 15th Dan holders having trained for less than 30 years, then this kind of thing is almost to be expected. The important thing is how good the individual instructor is, not what grade they hold.

There are horror stories around, and there are those who defend them. The worst I heard was a person who came into a dojo in Japan where he was told because he had studied karate before, and "had a good heart", he was awarded the grade of 2nd Dan before his first class was over. Realistically, I feel that a number of individuals were awarded high ranking early because they were expected to go back and spread the art in their own country, and a high rank can make that easier. My own instructor was no exception to that, by the way. But I wouldn't take an anonymous comment on a youtube video as gospel...

I have never been in a physical fight. I think it's partly due to my physical appearance; I'm not saying I'm Schwarzenegger, but I'm not the skinniest guy on the block either. And this is coupled with a height of around 188 cm.

Don't know of any Krav Maga guys like that (although I'm sure there are a few), but for Ninjutsu, do a quick search for video of Darren Horvath, a 15th Dan from Australia (Adelaide, to be precise).

I understand what you mean. However if you think about it, in almost every situation you are surrounded by potential weapons: beer bottles, cutlery, umbrellas-ellas-ellas, shoelaces, jackets etc. I don't want to rely solely on these either, but they can be a nice surplus in one's repertoire.

Yes, and by learning about weapons you can understand not only how to use these items, but also how they may be used against you. But as always, the weapon is useless without the person behind it, so to depend on a weapon as the source of your "power" or ability to defend yourself is to limit yourself quite badly.

Well, I don't know if I've helped you in your quest, but hopefully we've helped clear up your thinking as to what you are after. Anything else, just ask, we'll be here.