ninjutsu and hacking

mrhnau

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I just read an interesting couple of posts over at impactninjutsu. Basic question is should hacking skills be taught as part of a ninjutsu curriculum. There was also a bit of discussion over the differences between hacking and cracking.

What is your opinion? Should it be part of a modern curriculum? If ninjutsu was in the process of development today, do you think they would have included this type of work? Would they have been hackers, or both hackers/crackers? Isn't that kind of what the originators of ninjutsu had in mind, the solution of problems with minimal effort and often unconventional means? Are crackers the modern interpretation of ninjutsu, or at least in part?

Togakure Ryu has the "18 forms of Togakure Bujutsu", which include things not frequently used these days. Can we interpret Shinobi iri as hacking/cracking? How about Cho ho? Isn't espionage these days almost always done electronically?

I know the Bujinkan does not teach these disciplines (at least not openly), but I'd be curious to see what members think...


Somewhat related, can we consider teaching defensive driving instead of bajutsu?


anyways, just one of the things I've been contemplating lately :)
 

Monadnock

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I'm not sure what ethical influences should be in place on teaching illegal activities such as hacking or assassination/murder.

As for the hacking part, sounds like it falls under spying and information gathering, which have ancient origins but applied to modern technologies. This is all fine on its own, but without the why's, when's, where's and how's of traditional ninjutsu applied to it, how could it be called that today, unless it is a "modern ninjutsu."

Ninja also ate food. Just because I eat food, I am not a ninja. See the relation? :)

If I were trained on what, when, how and why to eat what they eat from a teacher who knows, then I would have deeper insight into ninjutsu.
 
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mrhnau

mrhnau

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Short article on difference between hacker/cracker

The Jargon File contains a bunch of definitions of the term hacker, most having to do with technical adeptness and a delight in solving problems and overcoming limits. If you want to know how to become a hacker, though, only two are really relevant.
There is a community, a shared culture, of expert programmers and networking wizards that traces its history back through decades to the first time-sharing minicomputers and the earliest ARPAnet experiments. The members of this culture originated the term hacker. Hackers built the Internet. Hackers made the Unix operating system what it is today. Hackers run Usenet. Hackers make the World Wide Web work. If you are part of this culture, if you have contributed to it and other people in it know who you are and call you a hacker, you're a hacker.


The hacker mind-set is not confined to this software-hacker culture. There are people who apply the hacker attitude to other things, like electronics or music actually, you can find it at the highest levels of any science or art. Software hackers recognize these kindred spirits elsewhere and may call them hackers too and some claim that the hacker nature is really independent of the particular medium the hacker works in. But in the rest of this document we will focus on the skills and attitudes of software hackers, and the traditions of the shared culture that originated the term hacker.


There is another group of people who loudly call themselves hackers, but aren't. These are people (mainly adolescent males) who get a kick out of breaking into computers and phreaking the phone system. Real hackers call these people crackers and want nothing to do with them. Real hackers mostly think crackers are lazy, irresponsible, and not very bright, and object that being able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists and writers have been fooled into using the word hacker to describe crackers; this irritates real hackers no end.


The basic difference is this: hackers build things, crackers break them

I don't see "hacking" as something bad... however, I'm wondering, would the "old ninjas" have taught cracking as well as hacking... I think they would have.
 

DavidCC

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Was forgery of written documents part of the original practices? that might be an equivalent activity.
 

Shicomm

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I'm not sure what ethical influences should be in place on teaching illegal activities such as hacking ...

Hacking ( just the general term ) is not illegal in all cases.
It can be used as a tool to check security on various systems, software and so on.

I think that "hacking" is a term that is brought a bit too far ; if someone learns how to find information on the internet very well , you could end up with about the same level of skill imho.
At least for gathering information that is ;)
 

Bill Sempf

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I just read an interesting couple of posts over at impactninjutsu. Basic question is should hacking skills be taught as part of a ninjutsu curriculum. There was also a bit of discussion over the differences between hacking and cracking.

I THOUGHT my ears were burning.

The original question dealt more with the philosophical question - are hackers (not crackers) the modern day Ninja? Creative problem solving it the hallmark of the hacker, and that seems to be the case for the Ninja as well. The problems being solved are very different, but the reasoning and the end result are no different.

Then the question took on sort of a life of its own, spawning questions like "should computer tech be taught as part of the curriculum" and stuff like that. I am far too new at this to be able to answer questions like this, but those of you who have been around a while might have some insight.

A key point that was made on the INJ board was that we as a community of martial artists should not condone lawlessness. My question is: should we accept civil disobedience? Where is that line? It's a tough question. I honestly didn't think through all of the ways this question could go when I originally posted it but it is an interesting thought experiment.

Anyway, I'm fascinated to hear everyone's thoughts!

S
 
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mrhnau

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There are a few things I think should be taught, though not necessarily hacking related. A large part of what is being taught it how to defend yourself from physical attack. I think these days, attacks come in various forms. They might not come in physical form, but they can sure hurt.

1) Identity theft. One needs to know how to secure your personal information. You can't be 100% safe, but you can increase the odds of your identity/credit being stolen

2) Computer security. Be aware of the technology out there. Is it that smart to download an unknown program and check it out? Are you using anti-virus and scanning for malware, spyware, etc? Using a firewall?

You can do a few simple things to help secure yourself. Perhaps a short day course on that would be sufficient? But should that be formalized in the form of ninjutsu?
 
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mrhnau

mrhnau

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I THOUGHT my ears were burning.

The original question dealt more with the philosophical question - are hackers (not crackers) the modern day Ninja? Creative problem solving it the hallmark of the hacker, and that seems to be the case for the Ninja as well. The problems being solved are very different, but the reasoning and the end result are no different.
I do see a strong similarity, and also the hint of counterculture, at least for the crackers (well, at least for the stereotype :) ). I don't see a problem drawing the analogy of ninja with crackers, but I do see a problem teaching every student how to crack.

Then the question took on sort of a life of its own, spawning questions like "should computer tech be taught as part of the curriculum" and stuff like that. I am far too new at this to be able to answer questions like this, but those of you who have been around a while might have some insight.
I'm relatively new, but I find the analogy fascinating. I'd not mind seeing it formalized into curriculum. Techjutsu? Computer Ryu?

A key point that was made on the INJ board was that we as a community of martial artists should not condone lawlessness. My question is: should we accept civil disobedience? Where is that line? It's a tough question. I honestly didn't think through all of the ways this question could go when I originally posted it but it is an interesting thought experiment.

Anyway, I'm fascinated to hear everyone's thoughts!
I think defensive measures, such as in my post just above, are essential, and in no way "cracking". I think part of the post in INJ dealt with the difference between hacking and cracking. I don't think many would condone the open teaching of cracking in the Bujinkan. It seems the Bujinkan has become a very sanitized entity, dealing mostly with Taijutsu. Not necessarily saying thats a bad thing...

I think the best analogy to cracking might be the teaching of using lockpicks or countermeasures to electronic security in buildings. If you would condone the teaching of breaking/entering into physical buildings, I'd see no difference between that and cracking. I'd condone the teaching of how to secure your home/building (ie perhaps adding different types of locks, keeping valuables out of sight), but I'd not condone teaching how to break into someones home... Analogy drawn to computer security.
 
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