Nia Sanchez and her rape comment. people freaks out.

[Rumy73]

The issue is that it's not an "either/or" thing ("either teach girls SD, or tell guys not to rape."), it's a "both/and" thing ("we teach both our girls SD AND our boys to not rape."). We (as a society) need to teach our daughters self-defense AND teach our sons that "no means no." Each need to be taught because the message, "no means no," is not making it into the heads of many guys. We have to teach both genders.

Great points. Also to add conversations about alcohol and trusting people too much. If we are talking about rapes on campus, I bet my last dollar that most are connected to drinking rather than a random assault.

 

[RTKDCMB]

'Teaching men not to rape", this phrase could be perceived as a little offensive. It implies that all men are rapists and they have to be taught not to be, its just not that simple. Most of us already know not to.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This guy has some good ideas.

 

[ballen0351]

Great points. Also to add conversations about alcohol and trusting people too much. If we are talking about rapes on campus, I bet my last dollar that most are connected to drinking rather than a random assault.

I agree and its not just campus. I worked as an Undercover Narc detective. I was creepy looking long biker beard, shaved head, biker clothing, earrings ect. If I had nothign going on some times Id go down to our local bar district and look for folks in the bars dealing. On more then one occasion I would assist totally intoxicated people both men and woman to get home or to a hotel or someplace. One case glares out at me in my mind. A woman was passed out on a park bench. I was sitting in traffic and watched to guys walk by and try to catch a peek up her dress. So I park jump out and yell at them they run off. I wake her up never once identify my self as law enforcement. I ask her where she lives she says a town about 2 hours away. I say are you staying in a hotel here she says yes. I ask where and she doesnt remember and hands me her wallet. I look and find a hotel key car for a chain of local hotels and bed and breakfasts. All are within a few blocks of where we are. I say get up Ill walk you home. She agrees gets up and goes with me. We walked down several dark back alleys and into 3 different hotels until I find the correct one. I walk her to her room take her in and she passes out on her bed I leave. Had I not been a cop and been a rapist her night would have gotten very bad.

 

[donnaTKD]

from that last comment i think some people need educating in personal safety !!!!!

some people automatically trust others to look out for them. my friends drink on the heavy side every friday but cos i don't drink i'm like the "bouncer" to keep them safe and to keep tabs on each of them - they have a good laugh n stuff and i drive them home. this my version of a controlled environment and they've had to accept that it's how things are going to be.

my friends dress smart - ok short skirts and heels but nothing that says "take me now" and they don't go asking for it --- helps that 4 of them are gay which makes my "job" a bit easier cos i know which ones are likely to take some chick to the bathroom n stuff but guys think that cos they're lesbians that they have a right to try and change them personally i hate these type of guys --- i believe that people should be allowed to live their lives how they want without interference from such people.

there needs to be better education all round forget just talking about it actually do summat to actively try and stop it --- i know that man will always think that he is better and that he can get away with whatever - that for me needs drumming out. i know that quite a lot of guys find it a total turn on too which i find funny - you can see the lust but they know not to touch and that has to be applauded


once you've been raped you never forget --- believe me it never goes away, it's part of why i train in MT --- you never let your guard down and are constantly watching your own back as well as in my case those of my friends.

 

[IcemanSK]

'Teaching men not to rape", this phrase could be perceived as a little offensive. It implies that all men are rapists and they have to be taught not to be, its just not that simple. Most of us already know not to.

I wouldn't say it's an offensive statement. It's a blunt statement to make the point that men have a responsibility on this issue. Do most men know this? Yes. That doesn't mean that it doesn't bear repeating and often to the male population. The college campus idea of, "well, she was into me when she was sober," doesn't fly. We still have that fratboy idea in our culture that says, "boys will be boys," and "if she didn't want it, she should have done, said, dressed like X, Y, or Z."

The message bears repeating to men because the stigma is still on the victims & less on the perpetrators. Case in point, the high school football players in Ohio. Several raped a classmate at a party, and the focus was on how drunk & slutty she was & how the accusation will ruin the boys' chances of playing college ball.

If you have a better way to present the message to guys then "don't rape" in a way that will be heard, I'd like to hear it. I'm not being confrontational to be a jerk, but merely to point out that a message to men on this subject needs to be strong to be heard.

 

[ballen0351]

I wouldn't say it's an offensive statement. It's a blunt statement to make the point that men have a responsibility on this issue. Do most men know this? Yes. That doesn't mean that it doesn't bear repeating and often to the male population. The college campus idea of, "well, she was into me when she was sober," doesn't fly. We still have that fratboy idea in our culture that says, "boys will be boys," and "if she didn't want it, she should have done, said, dressed like X, Y, or Z."

No It bears repeating to young folks college age folks. Both sexes it has more to do with age and maturity then gender.

The message bears repeating to men because the stigma is still on the victims & less on the perpetrators. Case in point, the high school football players in Ohio. Several raped a classmate at a party, and the focus was on how drunk & slutty she was & how the accusation will ruin the boys' chances of playing college ball.

So men were the only one making comments about how slutty she was? Again age and maturity not gender.

If you have a better way to present the message to guys then "don't rape" in a way that will be heard, I'd like to hear it. I'm not being confrontational to be a jerk, but merely to point out that a message to men on this subject needs to be strong to be heard.

I think "dont rape" is a sure fire way to tune people out and make them defensive.

 

[Tgace]

Our "sensitivity training society" is ****ed up. If a boy reaches college age and NEEDS to be "instructed" not to have sex with a passed out drunk girl then you have a problem no college orientation program is ever going to solve.

Programs like this are really about reducing liability (hey we taught them that rape was bad!!) than they ever are about changing behavior. I see it in my job all the time....lets send that officer to "sensitivity training"....its about liability reduction and/or laying the foundations for termination down the road. What keeps a lid on bad behavior in my PD (by and large) is the knowledge that the bosses wont tolerate it and that you will loose money and/or your job if you don't behave.

 

[Steve]

Our "sensitivity training society" is ****ed up. If a boy reaches college age and NEEDS to be "instructed" not to have sex with a passed out drunk girl then you have a problem no college orientation program is ever going to solve.

Programs like this are really about reducing liability (hey we taught them that rape was bad!!) than they ever are about changing behavior. I see it in my job all the time....lets send that officer to "sensitivity training"....its about liability reduction and/or laying the foundations for termination down the road. What keeps a lid on bad behavior in my PD (by and large) is the knowledge that the bosses wont tolerate it and that you will loose money and/or your job if you don't behave.

Here's what I think is true. Boys in college know that it's "wrong" to have sex with a girl who is passed out (or just really drunk). They do not, I believe, think it's rape. Some do, of course. The culture within the Greek systems, and on university campuses in general, makes what is for us a very clear issue something murky and gray.

Someone brought up the Revenge of the Nerds scene. I can't remember who, but someone here acknowledged that he didn't realize that the scene was depicting a rape until it was framed in that way. College kids are like this, but a lot less mature and with a lot less life experience to rely upon.

 

[Master Dan]

Listen I have done more work and research than any of you on this the last 40 years and bottom line is now more than ever there are predators same as the animal kingdom that look for the weak or prey and complete knowledge of prevention to not make girls and women not look like prey is needed and wishing for a perfect world is complete crap good luck with that. Let see women killed and eaten because the decided to jog alone on game trails eaten by wolves or killed and raped by men because they jogged alone on trails is just plane stupid my daughter and wife would never be allowed to do that. There is even a complete prevention plan for travel shopping parking you name it and all women and children should be trained. Did you know that Las Vegas is the nations top city for child kidnapping I freaked staying there with my family Casino staff warned me and my daughter never left my side and had one hand in my pocket some sick Fu----- came up in a restaurant and wanted our address to send free clothes because my 6 year old was so beautiful to promote his clothing line I told him step away or my for was going in his neck fu--- you.

Screw the talk only action

 

[wingchun100]

Listen I have done more work and research than any of you on this the last 40 years and bottom line is now more than ever there are predators same as the animal kingdom that look for the weak or prey and complete knowledge of prevention to not make girls and women not look like prey is needed and wishing for a perfect world is complete crap good luck with that. Let see women killed and eaten because the decided to jog alone on game trails eaten by wolves or killed and raped by men because they jogged alone on trails is just plane stupid my daughter and wife would never be allowed to do that. There is even a complete prevention plan for travel shopping parking you name it and all women and children should be trained. Did you know that Las Vegas is the nations top city for child kidnapping I freaked staying there with my family Casino staff warned me and my daughter never left my side and had one hand in my pocket some sick Fu----- came up in a restaurant and wanted our address to send free clothes because my 6 year old was so beautiful to promote his clothing line I told him step away or my for was going in his neck fu--- you.

Screw the talk only action

I would have told him, "I live at 704 Hauser St. (FYI Archie Bunker's address). You know where that is, right? Right at the corner of F*** You and Your Mom?"

 

[ballen0351]

I would have told him, "I live at 704 Hauser St. (FYI Archie Bunker's address). You know where that is, right? Right at the corner of F*** You and Your Mom?"

The reason people keep doing this is because he may ask 100 parents and 99 will say no but 1 will agree and start sending him "photo shoots" of the little girl in the clothes. People are pretty gullible. The whole I'm a Nigerian prince and need to smuggle my millions out of my country just send me 5000 bucks and I'll send you 500000. They keep sending the emails because they still work

 

[wingchun100]

The reason people keep doing this is because he may ask 100 parents and 99 will say no but 1 will agree and start sending him "photo shoots" of the little girl in the clothes. People are pretty gullible. The whole I'm a Nigerian prince and need to smuggle my millions out of my country just send me 5000 bucks and I'll send you 500000. They keep sending the emails because they still work

I know, but my comment was meant as a joke...a creative way to tell the creep to shove off.

 

[ballen0351]

I know, but my comment was meant as a joke...a creative way to tell the creep to shove off.

Yeah i got that I just wish everyone knew. It would make my job easier

 

[wingchun100]

Yeah i got that I just wish everyone knew. It would make my job easier

Well, regarding what you wrote about the parents who say "yes," not only will they start sending him pictures...but then the creep also knows where they live.

 

[donnaTKD]

i never tell anyone where i live - rarely give out my phone number and rarely if ever actually use my real name when talking to people. i'm a tad unfortunate in this cos my dog is instantly recognisable - thinking about trading him in for a black n white one :jaw-dropping:

i would've thought that people with kids would be a lot more determined to keep their kids safe and giving out sensitive info to any stranger is always a receipe for disaster.

i can understand why they pick LV to do their stuff though cos it's a party place, people are there to have a good time and on the whole let their hair down and consequently their guard falters too. but telling people where you live that's a no no - maybe tell them your city but nothing more defined than that.

 

[wingchun100]

i never tell anyone where i live - rarely give out my phone number and rarely if ever actually use my real name when talking to people. i'm a tad unfortunate in this cos my dog is instantly recognisable - thinking about trading him in for a black n white one :jaw-dropping:

i would've thought that people with kids would be a lot more determined to keep their kids safe and giving out sensitive info to any stranger is always a receipe for disaster.

i can understand why they pick LV to do their stuff though cos it's a party place, people are there to have a good time and on the whole let their hair down and consequently their guard falters too. but telling people where you live that's a no no - maybe tell them your city but nothing more defined than that.

Unfortunately, there is no IQ test required to be a parent.

 

[WaterGal]

I wouldn't say it's an offensive statement. It's a blunt statement to make the point that men have a responsibility on this issue. Do most men know this? Yes. That doesn't mean that it doesn't bear repeating and often to the male population. The college campus idea of, "well, she was into me when she was sober," doesn't fly. We still have that fratboy idea in our culture that says, "boys will be boys," and "if she didn't want it, she should have done, said, dressed like X, Y, or Z."

The message bears repeating to men because the stigma is still on the victims & less on the perpetrators. Case in point, the high school football players in Ohio. Several raped a classmate at a party, and the focus was on how drunk & slutty she was & how the accusation will ruin the boys' chances of playing college ball.

If you have a better way to present the message to guys then "don't rape" in a way that will be heard, I'd like to hear it. I'm not being confrontational to be a jerk, but merely to point out that a message to men on this subject needs to be strong to be heard.

I think almost everyone knows "rape is bad" - the problem is that they only think of rape as being when a scary-looking guy with a knife jumps out of a bush. People have a lot of false ideas about what "counts" as consent or non-consent. Especially teenagers, who are generally full of stupid misinformation about sex and relationships. So I think we should work on tackling that stuff - "X, Y, and Z are also rape and a crime", and "this is what consent is".

 

[Tgace]

The "thing" with consent is that people (just like your "rapist in the bush with a knife" example) think that the average "consent" issue is the "passed out drunk girl". In reality many of these situations are not black and white.

I posted this on a different thread here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111277

Like this case?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...256a1e-10d3-11e3-bdf6-e4fc677d94a1_story.html

In a nutshell...the victim states she went to a party and got intoxicated. Had consensual sex with one guy that evening and a different guy when she awoke the following morning. She found out later that she had sex/was raped (depending on unknown facts) by three midshipmen in between those contacts.

At issue is her condition at the time and if it was consensual. The common understanding (what most people assume) is that if she didn't remember it than she must have been unconscious and these guys took advantage of an unconscious victim. However....its also possible that she was "conscious"...speaking...and giving these guys the impression this contact was indeed consensual. Alcoholic "blackouts" don't equate to unconsciousness.

What would the legal issues be if both male and female parties were intoxicated enough to not recall the previous nights happenings? Is the male party still guilty of rape?

This is not to condone (by ANY means) those situations where men do indeed know the female is too intoxicated to consent...charge em and convict em. But if a guy is the type of person to do that I highly doubt that a class telling them that was wrong would be much more than a PC waste of time. Women need to protect themselves from people and situations like that. I don't want any of my daughters to be at the mercy of assuming a guy has been "properly trained" not to rape. If he needs that type of explanation in the first place I wouldn't want them associating with him.

I want women to be safe. I don't think that shutting down discussion of personal safety issues by screaming "YOU ARE BLAMING THE VICTIM" advances the issue at all. We ALL make mistakes..thats why in the LE/MIL world we have after action reviews (AAR's) we point out where we made mistakes and hope to learn from it so that we don't repeat them. It's not a matter of assigning blame...

 

[ballen0351]

The "thing" with consent is that people (just like your "rapist in the bush with a knife" example) think that the average "consent" issue is the "passed out drunk girl". In reality many of these situations are not black and white.

I posted this on a different thread here:

"Dont Rape" training...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/u...-academy-rape-case-receives-diploma.html?_r=0

former classmate and football player, Joshua Tate, was found not guilty of sexually assaulting her when she was too drunk to consent, closing a case that had lasted for nearly two years.