That's why I have changed "not necessary" to "not absolutely necessary" before your post.
Aikido seems to only address the harmony part. I try to point out that there is the un-harmony part as well.
NHK Doc - Jujutsu: The Art of Flexibility
- Thread starter J MacDonald
- Start date
Aikido seems to only address the harmony part. I try to point out that there is the un-harmony part as well.
Interesting that you do not see the "harmony" that was used in that throw. He cannot sweep that leg, if the other guy has all his weight on it. Notice that he breaks the other guys structure first, tipping his body away from the leg he intends to sweep... before sweeping that leg. The leg gets swept in harmony with the movement of his weight off the leg....Here is an example that you don't need harmony and you have no intention to borrow your opponent's force. Your front face your opponent's front. It's a "head on collision".
You still need harmony. You may be causing the weight shift and or movement.... but you must still move in harmony with the other guy. I grew up on a walnut orchard and stacked a lot of "firewood".... (4 to 5 feet long sections of walnut tree, over a foot in diameter) The walnut wood gives you no force to borrow. You initiate all movement.... you still need to move in harmony with the wood... especially as its weight approaches your own (or exceeds it).
If your opponent doesn't have 100% weight on one leg, when you sweep that leg, he can easily pick up that leg and escape your sweep. Only when your opponent has 100% weight on one leg, when you sweep it, he cannot escape.
In this video,
- His opponent's right leg kicks his leg (his opponent has 100% weight on his left leg).
- He hooks his opponent's left rooting leg off the ground.
You may have just redefined the term "harmony" that is used in Aikido. I won't call this "harmony". I'll call this "good timing".
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I don't think so.... The Aikido Sensei's that I have been cross training with for 12 years, use exactly that definition. They train with and are friends with both Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei... (both come to our dojo to teach a few times each year...) They may have some ideas about Aikido....
Mitsugi Saotome - Wikipedia
Hiroshi Ikeda (aikidoka) - Wikipedia
No, he is intending to set his weight on the right leg, but he is pushed back, his center of weight is behind his leg, his frame is broken allowing the leg to be lifted.
If there was no harmony, then the older guy gets kicked. The part that allowed him to step in at the right time, to prevent the kick from developing was that he moved in harmony with the attack.... since he move in at the right time, not too soon and not too late, he is able to prevent the full weight landing on the leg and able to prevent the guy having any structure at all... his attacking the attack at the time and place where attack is most vulnerable.... to get there, you must move at the right time, at the right speed, to the right place.... like you are moving in harmony with the opening created by the other guy....
isshinryuronin49 49
Senior Master
I dislike quoting my previous posts as it seems to be a bit egotistical, but in this case had several points that following posters repeated in various forms that did not reference them, pro or con, and left me wondering if my points did not deserve to be noted or if my post was not read. Perhaps I'm being too academically critical expecting some sort of direct reference/response agreeing or disagreeing or just becoming too sensitive in my old age. If so, I apologize.
BTW, the 3 guys, likely Samurai but not necessarily ronin, were named Fukuno Shichiroemon, Miura Yojiemon, and Isogai Jirozaemon. I didn't include them in my OP as their names are too long. Absent any info to the contrary, I'd believe there were such guys. The question is how much influence they exerted on the art.
I think this is an overly broad statement as you hinted by your "IF." Of course, there were indigenous MA that developed more or less exclusively in Japan. It's likely though some were not well organized into a system or even had a widely recognized name going back in time as occurred in Okinawa. More on this in the next quote.
BTW, the 3 guys, likely Samurai but not necessarily ronin, were named Fukuno Shichiroemon, Miura Yojiemon, and Isogai Jirozaemon. I didn't include them in my OP as their names are too long. Absent any info to the contrary, I'd believe there were such guys. The question is how much influence they exerted on the art.
Could be, but many fables are rooted in truth and then embellished. Are Chen and his three students real, given more credit than deserved or just fantasy? Perhaps elements of all of these?
Same Trick104 5
Master of Arts
Jujutsu was probably up to quite recently just some simple few rudimentary methods of getting away from a wrist hold so to draw a sword or a dagger or some kind of weapon tool.
So to look for a specific ancient MA that stood solely as an unarmed combat methods one probably have to settle with wrestling, but even that was not really something with an aim of getting skilled in combat, but rather something originally having to do with ceremonial and religious aspects and eventually morphing into sport for spectators enjoyment .
The whole āancientā jujutsu thing is probably a quite recent construction.
So to look for a specific ancient MA that stood solely as an unarmed combat methods one probably have to settle with wrestling, but even that was not really something with an aim of getting skilled in combat, but rather something originally having to do with ceremonial and religious aspects and eventually morphing into sport for spectators enjoyment .
The whole āancientā jujutsu thing is probably a quite recent construction.
Japanese MA such as Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto ryu, Kashima Shinto/Shinryu, Nen ryu, Aisu Kage ryu etc were organised and widely recognised in the 1400s, centuries before anything approaching that in Okinawa.
As I noted in my post above, there wasn't 'the art'. There were many arts. Supposedly Chin had some influence on the (Akiyama) Yoshin ryu arts. There were many - MANY - 'jujutsu' arts both before and after Chin which never encountered him or his teachings.
As you note, not really important, but 'Gempei' is not how the Chinese characters for Chin's name are pronounced in Japanese. The third kanji is 'bin' or 'pin'.
Where do you find reference to Chin knowing shuai chiao, dim mak and qin'na? In the one reference I'm aware of, Chin expressly stated to the three that - although he did not know them - he had seen some of the 'methods to subdue people' extant in China.
Rather than re-write it here, I'll point to this article which aligns with my understanding of the historical record.
No, as I mentioned earlier, there were many 'jujutsu' style arts documented in Japan going back to the 1300s. Some from the 1400s and 1500s still exist - still lead by the same families - today.
The term 'jujutsu' is a relatively new one. More older styles used terms such as 'Yawara', 'Koshi-no-Mawari', 'Kumiuchi' etc.
They did incorporate weapon use and retention in their training of grappling, but were FAR more than 'rudimentary methods of getting away from a wrist hold'. They include much, much more, including grappling both armoured and unarmoured, with a variety of weapons and without.
I'm a member of the Sosuishi ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari. It was created around 1630, and has been led by the Shitama family for many generations.
Xue Sheng150 3
All weight is underside
Just a short interruption in the back and forth going on here.
First this is reminding me of a thread on MT many years ago where the OP was claiming all Chinese martial arts come from Pankration, and everything else come from Shaolinā¦which owes its knowledge of martial arts to pankration, since it existed before any other martial art. Sadly he knew nothing of the history of Shuaijiao. Or for that matter shuaijiao even existed
Second, if Newton and Leibniz can come up with calculus, at the same time, independently from each other. How hard is it to imagine that 2 or 3 or a dozen guys can figure out how to best hit, throw, kick, and hurt other, independently, without needing input from someone else.
To be honest, although it is a fact, i find it much harder to believe the independent calculus discovery, than i do that 2 guys miles apart, from vastly different cultures, figured out how to best punch someone else in the face.
Just my two centsā¦. Xue is outā¦ please excuse the interruption and carry on
First this is reminding me of a thread on MT many years ago where the OP was claiming all Chinese martial arts come from Pankration, and everything else come from Shaolinā¦which owes its knowledge of martial arts to pankration, since it existed before any other martial art. Sadly he knew nothing of the history of Shuaijiao. Or for that matter shuaijiao even existed
Second, if Newton and Leibniz can come up with calculus, at the same time, independently from each other. How hard is it to imagine that 2 or 3 or a dozen guys can figure out how to best hit, throw, kick, and hurt other, independently, without needing input from someone else.
To be honest, although it is a fact, i find it much harder to believe the independent calculus discovery, than i do that 2 guys miles apart, from vastly different cultures, figured out how to best punch someone else in the face.
Just my two centsā¦. Xue is outā¦ please excuse the interruption and carry on
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HighKick
Senior Master
I have zero knowledge about Chinese martial arts origins/history, but Fully, agree with the idea that learning or IMHO more aptly Knowing how to punch/strike someone is/was almost as natural as walking. Who and when this was refined and defined? Anybody's guess.
Let the pissing contest continue.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Every culture throughout the history of the human species developed methods for fighting and combat. The world was a dangerous place and people needed these skills. This idea that it can be all traced back to this or that person or era is, I think, nonsense.
frank raud101 11
Senior Master
I have often said that there are three basic needs that can be explained by the 3 Fs, food, fight.....and procreate. If I told you a country had to wait for some mysterious stranger from another country to teach them how to eat, you would laugh at me, likewise for procreation. But somehow no one knew how to fight until Bodiharma came to China, or some Chinese guy went to Japan, etc. is accepted as a given. Could the knowledge of cooking, harvesting or raising stock be improved by knowledge from another country? Undoubtedly. The Kama Sutra shows some pretty advanced moves that folks may not have figured out themselves. Same goes for formalized systems of fighting.
isshinryuronin49 49
Senior Master
That was a good article. I think based on our posts (and article) we can agree on the following:
1. There was certainly native Japanese MA akin to jiu-jitsu prior to Chen (1600) that were not coalesced into a single organized system.
2. The Chinese view is skewed to them inventing the art; the Japanese downplay such a view of Chinese influence. (A completely natural human chauvinistic thing. Japan even changed the kanji for karate to remove Chinese reference for example.)
3. While there were native Japanese arts (and Okinawan) they were open to blending in Chinese skills and concepts. (McCarthy notes that vital point striking was not found in jiu-jitsu prior to Chen's time.)
TMA evolved as a necessity and good ideas from elsewhere were not discounted. They were often incorporated, modified and adapted to fit the region's need and outlook according to the times. There is no one person that should be given credit to inventing a TMA, all were gradually forged over time with many contributors, some recognized by history with varying degrees of accuracy in deeds and dates. There is a lot of minutiae (some interesting) that can be noted and debated, but what's really important, IMO, is the general evolutionary flow and foundational concepts of the art.
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Xue Sheng150 3
All weight is underside
I've read the Kama Sutra... I'm not sure anyone can physically DO all those moves...at least not without injury
isshinryuronin49 49
Senior Master
Like a TMA book, it's hard to learn from since illustrations only show the position. The key is the movement between the positions. Constant 'drilling' is required to master the moves. A video version would be much more illuminating.I've read the Kama Sutra... I'm not sure anyone can physically DO all those moves...at least not without injury
India not only invented TMA, but sex as well. An amazing culture!
Same Trick104 5
Master of Arts
The āHundredth Monkey Phenomenonā
1. Correct - they were coalesced into many organised systems. Thinking that 'jujutsu' is, or ever was, a single organised system is like thinking Chinese TMA is a single 'kung-fu' art.
2. I don't know that there's a singular 'Chinese' view, however it is sometimes claimed by CMA practitioners - with no real knowledge of JMA or JMA history - that Chin Genpin 'invented' jujutsu. The reality is that the only records indicate that he may have had some influence on a single 'line' of arts.
3. The influence of Chinese (and Korean.. and Western) culture on Japan is indisputable. The cross-pollination occurred in these cultures generally is similarly indisputable. The Chinese took an Aisu Kage ryu mokuroku from wako and returned it to China, where it influenced miao dao methods. To claim that all Chinese sword arts originated in Japan would be asinine.
