New York to recognize gay marriages

[Bob Hubbard]

Found this on CNN. Bout time. I know alot of folks will be happy to hear this.

New York to recognize gay marriages

Gov. David Paterson of New York has told state agencies to recognize same-sex marriages performed in states and countries where they are legal .A memo instructs state agencies to revise policies and regulations to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states and countries.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/29/nygay.marriage/index.html

• Gay marriage licenses may arrive in June
• Your state's rules on same-sex unions

Of course, to some this is the end times, god is crying, we're all damned, yadda yadda yadda.

To me, it's only right to allow 2 people in love to commit fully.

 

[elder999]

To me, it's only right to allow 2 people in love to commit fully.

...and about time, too......

 

[terryl965]

Not my thing but this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Jai]

I don't see this as the end of times anymore then when women where given the right to vote. People back then said the same thing. If two people are fully in love and wish to give thier lives to one another, let them.

 

[mrhnau]

I mentioned this to my wife this morning. Here is some prophecy for you...

States recognize marriages in other states. It's kind of a courtesy. It's not a federal issue. Now, here is what will happen. Some couple in NY or CA are going to get married and get benefits through the state. They will move to some conservative state and request those same benefits, but will be denied. Then that sucker is going to the Supreme Court. Depends on who is currently sitting on the bench on how they decide, but its going to happen.

If two people are fully in love and wish to give thier lives to one another, let them.

And you require a government sanction for that? Somehow, society survived without gay marriage for a few thousand years, but we want it now? What if a 30 year old and a 12 year old fall deeply in love. That OK? They are in love, and want to live their lives together, so lets do it! How about polygamy? Three people fall deeply in love. Why not? It's all about love! At least there is precedent for endorsing those kind of marriages. We have to invent something new! Aren't we proud!

 

[tellner]

mr nhau, that's a bit disingenuous. The government provides all sorts of special privileges for married couples from the power to make certain life-or-death decisions to property ownership, pension benefits and child custody. If you don't need the State to recognize your love then it would only be fair if you were to forgo all the goodies that get heaped on heterosexual couples. Anything else would be the worst sort of hypocrisy.

One of the things that right wingers and fear mongers always bring up when gay marriage is mentioned is adults screwing little children. It never fails. It's typical of the RWA (Altmeyer's Right Wing Authoritarian)) "Anything I don't want is everything I hate" mentality. Following closesly on that is gay marriage leads to bestiality. See Rick "Frothy Brown Mixture" Santorum's man-on-dog comments.

Polygamy? That seems to be more the province of weird Christian cults like the FLDS. They also combine it with humping veal, so there's your combination. Strangely enough it doesn't seem to involve any lesbians or gay men.

Of course it's complete twaddle and horsefeathers. The whole issue is that consenting adult humans should not have special privileges based on the possession of one dongle and one port. If they choose to mix and match that's their business.

You don't want gays to marry? Fine. You don't have to marry one. But your personal quirks about what is sexually arousing have no business in someone else's bedroom or marriage contract.

 

[Dave Leverich]

Actually Tellner, I don't see it as a right wing thing so much as just a left-over mentality from ages past. Times have changed with regards to acceptance greatly in just the last few decades. It doesn't stick to 'right/left' 'R/D' lines at all, although it does seem that way at times.

 

[SageGhost83]

I say it's good that they recognize same sex marriages. Who are they hurting? If you know what you want and you are happy with it, then what is the point of being angry about it? Most counter arguments seem to rest solely on the strength of either A) hypocrisy or B) outright bigotry.

 

[arnisador]

Great news!

 

[mrhnau]

mr nhau, that's a bit disingenuous. The government provides all sorts of special privileges for married couples from the power to make certain life-or-death decisions to property ownership, pension benefits and child custody. If you don't need the State to recognize your love then it would only be fair if you were to forgo all the goodies that get heaped on heterosexual couples. Anything else would be the worst sort of hypocrisy.

One of the things that right wingers and fear mongers always bring up when gay marriage is mentioned is adults screwing little children. It never fails. It's typical of the RWA (Altmeyer's Right Wing Authoritarian)) "Anything I don't want is everything I hate" mentality. Following closesly on that is gay marriage leads to bestiality. See Rick "Frothy Brown Mixture" Santorum's man-on-dog comments.

Polygamy? That seems to be more the province of weird Christian cults like the FLDS. They also combine it with humping veal, so there's your combination. Strangely enough it doesn't seem to involve any lesbians or gay men.

Of course it's complete twaddle and horsefeathers. The whole issue is that consenting adult humans should not have special privileges based on the possession of one dongle and one port. If they choose to mix and match that's their business.

You don't want gays to marry? Fine. You don't have to marry one. But your personal quirks about what is sexually arousing have no business in someone else's bedroom or marriage contract.

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Did you not answer the question at all? Rather misdirect?

What is the difference? Many societies in the past were polygamous. We still have a few that are, and its not strictly LDS. Lots of societies in the past had marriages with young women. Some still do. In some states it is legal to marry before 18. Please tell me how that is different? It does not deal with gays, but it does deal with the concept of marriage, which is the question at hand.

 

[arnisador]

And you require a government sanction for that? Somehow, society survived without gay marriage for a few thousand years, but we want it now?

And man survived without heterosexual marriage before that. But why now? Well, what depends on marital status:

*Health insurance
*Income tax treatment
*Inheritance rights and taxes
*Adoption rights
*Hospital and other visitation rights

etc. When you disentangle all of that stuff from marriage, get back to me.

Your comparison of gay marriage to pedophilia doesn't merit a response.

 

[mrhnau]

And man survived without heterosexual marriage before that. But why now? Well, what depends on marital status:

*Health insurance
*Income tax treatment
*Inheritance rights and taxes
*Adoption rights
*Hospital and other visitation rights

etc. When you disentangle all of that stuff from marriage, get back to me.

Good points, and thank you for presenting a reasonable lists of points. See polygamy statement below.

I'd find it odd for people to get married simply because of taxes or health insurance. Lets deal with the specifics.

Some issues, such as adoption rights, should be dealt with in a will. Or at least they should be.

Health insurance. Let insurance companies decide how to deal with that. I think the concept of some kind of formal union has been discussed. Might be a good option.

Hospital / visitation rights should be dealt with by the hospitals. I know of couples that lived together, having children and never got married. Would a hospital refuse them entrance? I doubt it. Though not legal, I'd consider them family. Would they exclude a girlfriend of a guy in the hospital? I don't know, never had experience with that. I would hope that any doctor with a beating heart would not exclude someone obviously that important in the patients life.

income tax, inheritance and associated taxes. Inheritance should be dealt with in a will. I know states vary on this, but the contents of a will should be fairly set in stone, IMHO. You want Joe to get your stuff? Then Joe should get it! Income tax? Same issue with hetero couples that don't get married. Are their lives ruined because they don't want to get married? Does that make them any more invalid than any homo couple?

Your comparison of gay marriage to pedophilia doesn't merit a response.

Actually, it does. Good attempt at dismissing it. It still happens. Kids get pregnant at 14 and in some states they can get married. Can also get married before 18 with parental permission in some states I do believe. It's also been around for ages. It's an established tradition, which many people find displeasing. Here is the comparison. Gay marriage is something many people find displeasing. Just so happens that in recent years the number of people pursuing it has increased. At least minor marriage has been established and has precedent. Gay marriage? Our own wonderful invention.

You also fail to mention polygamy. In several societies it was necessary for women to remarry. If a husband were to die, it might be a death sentence for the wife and children. So, she might marry one of her husbands brothers, irregardless of if he had a wife. She might have the extra added benefits that we today might call "health insurance", "income tax treatment", "inheritance rights". Gee, doesn't that sound a lot like what gays are seeking? Since they are so important, are you willing to endorse polygamy now?

A lot of these things are cultural. Polygamy, minor marriage, those have been around in various forms for thousands of years. Some people find them controversial. Gay marriage is a new one, but people find that controversial too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What if a 30 year old and a 12 year old fall deeply in love. That OK?

Nope the 12 year old is a minor therefore cannot make such decisions under NYS Law and the 30 year old will be thrown in jail for molestation. I do not believe Love is a defense for justification of Child molestation in any state and I am pretty sure it isn't in NYS.

And this is, IMO, taking this in a rather silly and definitely inflammatory direction.


As to New York to recognize gay marriages

Yeah whatever :shrug:

Every time a contract is negotiated the state tries and to some extent succeeds at taking a bit of our benefits away so they are more than welcome to join the party of dwindling benefits. Hell who knows maybe the added votes might actually help out at contract time.

 

[Empty Hands]

I would hope that any doctor with a beating heart would not exclude someone obviously that important in the patients life.

Happens all the time, actually. Since gay partners have no legal status, many partners loathed by the sick person's family have even been denied visiting privileges. Just one of the reasons that gay folks want recognition for their unions.

 

[mrhnau]

And this is, IMO, taking this in a rather silly and definitely inflammatory direction.

I also find it disturbing that people can not find a meaningful analogy between pedophilia/minor marriage and gay marriage. It's an attempt to modify an existing institution based on our moral whims. I consider the introduction of gay marriage as a more dramatic modification of marriage than trying to eliminate pedophilia/minor marriage.

I also find it equally disturbing that no one will even respond to the concept of polygamy. I also find it disturbing that we are discussing gay marriage, but I suppose thats OK. 20 years ago the concept was not even discussed, at least that I am aware of. But I guess we are so much smarter now, and have all the clever ideas!

 

[mrhnau]

Happens all the time, actually. Since gay partners have no legal status, many partners loathed by the sick person's family have even been denied visiting privileges. Just one of the reasons that gay folks want recognition for their unions.

Should not be. Thats a problem with the hospitals though, not with the government sanctioning of marriages.

on another thread, marriage will in no way stop families from loathing the partner. Same way it won't stop families from loathing a hetero partner that they don't approve of.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, considering the chaos that's currently happening in Canada since they legalized same-gender marriages, maybe you're right. I mean, ever since then, people have been marrying goats, raping toddlers and just last week 42 men were seen in Toronto for a group wedding to a RealDoll.

Oh wait, none of that actually happened. Guess it doesn't cause all that stuff after all.

Here is the comparison. Gay marriage is something many people find displeasing.

So, since "many" people find it displeasing, it's equal to pedophilia???

ok. I find taxes to be displeasing. I'm sure that in a survey of MT members we would find a majority to agree with that too.
So, does taxation equal child rape?

I find waking up in the morning displeasing. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would rather sleep in.
So, are morning people now equal to child rapists?

I really hate snakes. Seeing them displeases me...hey, Indy hates snakes too.
Poor Hajib, looks like Indy mighta been using that whp for something else eh?

Polygamy. Interesting that that's "immoral", considering that it's normal and accepted in many cultures. In the US, there are thousands of multi-partner relationships that live, work, play and raise families, all in good health, good spirits, and all without the "cult" mentalities that a small handfull fall afoul of. I know a few personally. Quite happy, quite normall. They aren't "immoral" and they aren't equal to a pedophile.

Kids getting pregnant at 14. Or 12. It happens. It suck, it's preventable, but it happens. Doesn't make them evil, sinful, wrong, or such. It definately doesn't make them on the same low level as pedophiles and child murderers or animal buggerers.

Minor-marriage, that I will disagree on, in that most youths aren't able to make those tought choices. But then again, neither are most adults either.

Tell me, what's the percentage of "straight" divorces again? 50% was one number I saw. Most 'gay' couples I've know were together 10+ years.

Promiscuity? It's not a gay/straight thing.
STD's? It's not a gay/straight thing.


Being "Married" by law gives a couple (that's 2 btw) rights that an unmarried couple does not have. I say, give any 2 people, of legal age and right mind, those same rights.
Read that carefully please.
I don't say let Roger marry Rover, or ElRoy marry his 3 yr old neice, or such nonsence.
I say, give any 2 people, of legal age and right mind, those same rights, regardless of gender or religion.

If the conservative christians don't want to do the ceremony, then that's ok too. But a Civil recognition should be allowed.


With all that said, I think poligamic relationships should also be allowed and recognized as well, provided certain guidelines could be developed to fit with what is currently accepted, but that s an entirely different debate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also find it disturbing that people can not find a meaningful analogy between pedophilia/minor marriage and gay marriage. It's an attempt to modify an existing institution based on our moral whims. I consider the introduction of gay marriage as a more dramatic modification of marriage than trying to eliminate pedophilia/minor marriage.

I also find it equally disturbing that no one will even respond to the concept of polygamy. I also find it disturbing that we are discussing gay marriage, but I suppose thats OK. 20 years ago the concept was not even discussed, at least that I am aware of. But I guess we are so much smarter now, and have all the clever ideas!

The fact that ANYONE can compare what consenting adults (gay, straight or multiple) do to PEDOPHILIA and CHILD MOLESTAION I find EXTREMELY disturbing and it is a BAD way to go to justify any argument IMO, particularly when it appears to BE based on a moral whim.

In an effort to maintain calm and not take this down a very bad road I will say my record here on MT (and off MT) when it comes to ANYTHING that is child molestation or pedophilia tends to be VERY much against and of the position that hanging is to good for em, this also includes priests by the way (and I am not kidding at all here) do NOT mess with CHILDERN.

What 2 or more (polygamy) consenting ADULTS do really does not matter anywhere NEAR as much to me nor do they anger me anywhere NEAR as CHILD MOLESTATION issues do.

With that I will bow out of this thread since I REALLY do not need the increase in blood pressure this is VERY likely to cause me.

 

[mrhnau]

Well, considering the chaos that's currently happening in Canada since they legalized same-gender marriages, maybe you're right. I mean, ever since then, people have been marrying goats, raping toddlers and just last week 42 men were seen in Toronto for a group wedding to a RealDoll.

Oh wait, none of that actually happened. Guess it doesn't cause all that stuff after all.

Canada did it! yay! Lets follow suite! There is slavery in parts of Africa! Yay! Lets follow suite! Bhurkas for every woman! Polygamy! Legalized drugs! Some country has those things legal, so we should follow example, right?



Lets decide to be our own nation with our own laws please.

So, since "many" people find it displeasing, it's equal to pedophilia???

Certain things are illegal in this country, because of some moral codes and cultural standings. If the majority of people want gay marriage, then we are going to probably get it. Would you think the same about other "deviant" behaviors? What if the majority of people start finding polygamy or pedophilia more appealing? Should we start endorsing that as well? I think its quite a relevant point. I'm not comparing the three, just stating that they are both dealing with the issue of marriage and are questions that need to be asked.

So, does taxation equal child rape?
So, are morning people now equal to child rapists?

*snort*

Polygamy. Interesting that that's "immoral", considering that it's normal and accepted in many cultures. In the US, there are thousands of multi-partner relationships that live, work, play and raise families, all in good health, good spirits, and all without the "cult" mentalities that a small handfull fall afoul of. I know a few personally. Quite happy, quite normall. They aren't "immoral" and they aren't equal to a pedophile.

that is why I bring it up. Many people find it acceptable, but its not legal to get married so many times. However, those couples won't get the same benefits as married couples do. I don't hear of them suffering horribly and crying for health benefits or hospital visits.

regarding the "many", if enough people voted for it, it would be legalized too I suppose.

I don't equate polygamy with pedophilia. Might be some people that practice both, but thats not my point here.

Kids getting pregnant at 14. Or 12. It happens.
It definately doesn't make them on the same low level as pedophiles.

took out all sentences except for the blaring contradiction. Who exactly got that 14/12 year old pregnant? It's not always another 14 year old. Go over to some military bases. Surprisingly you will find higher rates of pregnancy among minors. Fort Bragg, close to me, has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the nation...

Tell me, what's the percentage of "straight" divorces again? 50% was one number I saw. Most 'gay' couples I've know were together 10+ years.

and I know plenty of straight couples together 10+ years too. Sort of irrelevant. I'm sure gay couples break up as well, just don't show up on divorce records for the same reason that the last time you broke up with your girlfriend didn't show up.

Promiscuity? It's not a gay/straight thing.
STD's? It's not a gay/straight thing.

agreed, and not brought up until now.

I say, give any 2 people, of legal age and right mind, those same rights, regardless of gender or religion.

If the conservative christians don't want to do the ceremony, then that's ok too. But a Civil recognition should be allowed.

With all that said, I think poligamic relationships should also be allowed and recognized as well, provided certain guidelines could be developed to fit with what is currently accepted, but that s an entirely different debate.

at least you are honest about it
if people want to be together, that is their choice. They are adults, and can do what they want. I just don't want the government endorsing what they are doing, which is what sanctioning marriage is. Marriage has been an established tradition for thousands of years... I don't think its something you toy with because of "health insurance" or something like that. If you do that, you need to revisit other modifications of marriage, such as I mentioned in my previous response to Arnisador. Unmarried couples have the same issues and don't immediately rush out to get married all the time.

 

[Empty Hands]

I also find it disturbing that people can not find a meaningful analogy between pedophilia/minor marriage and gay marriage.

I find it difficult to believe that you can't understand what has been explained to you, but they are vastly different. Gay unions involve two consenting adults. Minor unions involve one consenting adult and one non-consenting minor. By legal definition, it is rape. Thus, legalizing minor marriage is legalizing rape, except in the states which have exempted marriage (but not unmarried sex) from that definition.

Similarly, polygamy is a different class since more than two consenting adults are involved, although it is not as much a concern as minor marriages. I think you will find though that this isn't the asskicker of a point you think it is, since many or even most gay marriage advocates would have no particular problem with three or four consenting adults gaining legal status for their relationship. What holds most people back is the actual state as is of polygamy in this country, which is mostly the province of backwards fundamentalist religious cults with creepy old dudes keeping all the twelve year old girls for themselves and exiling the boys to live or die on their own.