New to Wing Chun

[wingchun123]

Hi all i am really intrested in wing chun and i am going to begin learning soon ... but i have heard from my friends who practice it that the local sifu doesnt really teach the ins and outs and all the names , me being the perfectionist that i am decided to research all i could about wing chun.

After 2 days of research i have concluded that the main cirriculum the sifu will be teaching is siu lim tao which is the first form i also managed to bring together all the forms and a list of EVERY SINGLE movement in the siu lim tao.

now i believe that i am probably better off learning at home.. as i know all the hand movements-
lap sau
pak sau
lan sau
gum sau
etc

and also the limb movements

so what i will be doing over the next couple of weeks/months is i will be practicing siu lim tao. then i will learn each and every hand movement and limb movement
once i have reached that stage i will find a partner and begin doing drills/ sticky hands etc

i know i will be advised that i should not train at home. but i am . lol so please no posts regarding that i should find a sifu. if you think i should find a sifu please rephrase ur reply in how i can improve the way i will be learning wing chun over the next few months

 

[mook jong man]

Oh please God not another one , spare us.

 

[coffeerox]

Hi all i am really intrested in wing chun and i am going to begin learning soon ... but i have heard from my friends who practice it that the local sifu doesnt really teach the ins and outs and all the names , me being the perfectionist that i am decided to research all i could about wing chun.

After 2 days of research i have concluded that the main cirriculum the sifu will be teaching is siu lim tao which is the first form i also managed to bring together all the forms and a list of EVERY SINGLE movement in the siu lim tao.

now i believe that i am probably better off learning at home.. as i know all the hand movements-
lap sau
pak sau
lan sau
gum sau
etc

and also the limb movements

so what i will be doing over the next couple of weeks/months is i will be practicing siu lim tao. then i will learn each and every hand movement and limb movement
once i have reached that stage i will find a partner and begin doing drills/ sticky hands etc

i know i will be advised that i should not train at home. but i am . lol so please no posts regarding that i should find a sifu. if you think i should find a sifu please rephrase ur reply in how i can improve the way i will be learning wing chun over the next few months

I'm a self-trainer fyi. The main problem is that you HAVE to have a partner, one that is also wanting to learn Wing Chun to be able to do drills and spar with on a consistent basis.

Self-training involves heavy research and it's very possible to stack up an insane amount of knowledge depending on how many sources and the quality of information out there.

Source and quality of information is important because they have to go in-depth due to the absence of a Sifu. They have to show you and tell you what is wrong and why it's wrong. What the right way is and so on, so forth.

Another problem is obtaining the information. It's gets very expensive to the point where a class is actually cheaper than buying material and the bought material can still help as a supplemental tool due to the teacher not going in-depth in class. You can get lucky and find videos with people explaining it, or articles/entries on a particular subject.

Oh please God not another one , spare us.

I checked out some of James DeMile's students (James Demile trained w/ Bruce before JKD), I found that my body structure as taught to me by Jin was much better than his students which had it wrong (even the punching was wrong). Self training isn't bad, we just need good instruction.

In my state we have a self-training program here: http://www.awcaonline.com/ it seems pretty solid in terms of instruction, offers both written word, pictures and a walkthrough in video. Like I said earlier though, the better the information and explanation, the better the chance we have of learning what we need to translate that to training. I wish I could post a video of my Siu Nim Tao, in my opinion, it could stand up to most students that do go to school. I even know the Chum Kiu form as well but some parts of it looks good, some other parts look bad (like the kick at the end for example) I'm still in the process of practicing and learning it so I'll admit that one is not up to par yet.

 

[wingchun123]

the reason i have become so intrested in wing chun is because my grandfather is willing to teach me. but he used to be a streetfighter back in the days.. most of the wingchun he knows is mixed in with other styles and not very traditional..
i am going to learn the basics and train with him in the basics only... i do not want to pick up something wrong and at the same time i wish to know each and every movement in the siu lim tao

oh and coffeerox i believe i have gathered enough information and videos.. i have been looking around and researching everything for a couple of days now

 

[IrishMonk]

So, I'll state the obvious...even though you do'nt want to hear it. You need a Sifu to correct your many mistakes and bad habits that you WILL pick up as soon as you begin. Why not train with the Sifu and supplement with your own studies ?
Secondly, these friends of yours that practice Wing Chun...do they live around you ? why cant you train with their Sifu.... or do they train with the one they do not like ?
Anyway, I wish all good luck to you. I will give you a recomendation... 2 books. Wing Chun Compendium Vol. 1 and 2 by Wayne Belonoha. ( again, these are great supplements to formal training )

 

[wingchun123]

Thanks for the recommendation irish monk and i just wish to make it clear i do not want to be a proffesional wing chun practitioner. i might not even go to the higher open hand forms.
wing chun is an incredible art but the way i see it is that unless you are going up against an incredible fighter the 1st form will usually take care of an average fighter.

 

[coffeerox]

the reason i have become so intrested in wing chun is because my grandfather is willing to teach me. but he used to be a streetfighter back in the days.. most of the wingchun he knows is mixed in with other styles and not very traditional..
i am going to learn the basics and train with him in the basics only... i do not want to pick up something wrong and at the same time i wish to know each and every movement in the siu lim tao

oh and coffeerox i believe i have gathered enough information and videos.. i have been looking around and researching everything for a couple of days now

You'll never have enough information. Don't think that because Wing Chun is open to interpretation and there are many interpretations that are useful and can be added to what you know.

Your grandfather sounds like a great source to learn WC from. Yes he may pass on some non-traditional stuff but you don't have to take it in. Do your own research in your own time and find out more. You're really lucky to have him.

the way i see it is that unless you are going up against an incredible fighter the 1st form will usually take care of an average fighter.

Okay let me stop you there right now for your own sake. The first form is good but Chum Kiu training is where you'll put it together for combat.

 

[wingchun123]

coffeerox sounds as though youre having a go at me! lol youre a self trainer also can you tell me what problems you faced?
and yes i will begin doing the drills with my grandfather but the reason i am want to learn siu lim tao first is that like you said he may pass on non traditional things.. and like irish monk said i will develop bad habits

 

[yak sao]

Interestingly enough, there is a guy where I work who self taught himself WC. He knows I study WC and every now and then he likes to talk about what he does. Hoo boy, he's a nice guy, but he has so many misgivings about what is and isn't WC. Anyway, today I'm sitting there listening politely to his theories and it hit me. When you are learning any physical skill, MA or otherwise, you bring your own preconceived notions to it.
You do it the way you think it should be done and how it's comfortable for you.
Unfortunately, what is correct, often times, is not what is the most comfortable for your body to do. In other words, the right way feels wrong until you practice it over and over and ingrain it.
Without a sifu guiding you, you will continue to practice what feels right, but most likely isn't.

 

[dosk3n]

Yak is correct. Things like keeping your elbow on the centre line. The correct angle and rotation of bong sau etc all feels alien when you first start and being self taught you dont know what it should feel like so your body starts to put it where it feel right but its actually wrong.

I mean I think it can be done and Coffeerox is giving a bloomin good go but even he has said it is hard and he has mentioned him self in ohter threads that if he had the time, ability etc he would like a sifu also.

If theres someone in your area even if you dont think he knows that much still use him. You can still self train on top of that but it will come to you a lot faster with the help of a sifu. Especially if youre only wanting to learn Sil Lim Tao, it would only take a couple months to get the basic grip of it but would take longer on your own.

Im not saying its wrong to self train I just think if the option is there for someone to teach you properly then use it and if you like it keep going to that sifu if not then just keep self training but I realy think you should at least give a few classes a go and see what you think before you make your descision.

Good luck to you on your journey.

Can I ask what are you live?

 

[coffeerox]

Unfortunately, what is correct, often times, is not what is the most comfortable for your body to do. In other words, the right way feels wrong until you practice it over and over and ingrain it.
Without a sifu guiding you, you will continue to practice what feels right, but most likely isn't.

The correct angle and rotation of bong sau etc all feels alien when you first start and being self taught you dont know what it should feel like so your body starts to put it where it feel right but its actually wrong.

I agree on both points. At first, I did the bong sao, I did not know what it would feel like under pressure so in a sense I just 'copied' the movement but didn't know what was behind the movement. I did the technique under pressure, and it failed. Attacks were getting through and my arm did not feel like it could support the weight.

It wasn't until I saw/heard an in-depth explanation, until I started practicing it the right way and then, going back to apply the technique. This time, my arm supported his weight and from here, goes into lap sau or whatever. Now I'm learning things like Yi Bong and Paau Bong, etc.

To summarize, it's pretty much the scientific method. Like I said, at first, I did the form as shown, but not knowing what it was behind it (therefore everything was wrong) However, once you get your hands on the concept, an actual in-depth explanation and demonstration, you have your tools to experiment. Practice what you learned getting the movements with concept in mind, test it out in actual application and analyze where you are going wrong, what you could do to correct that.

One concept that I do not see that others share, is that if you do it wrong, your technique will fail. Personally, I believe that this technique was there for a reason. It works. If it doesn't work, you did it wrong.

Here, people believe that you must be under the supervision/guidance of an expert to tell you what is wrong and what is right. That's good and all, but you also have to take it upon yourself to stress test these techniques so that they do not fail under pressure.

Ip Man, from what I heard, trained people in this way. He taught, demonstrated the techniques and concepts to students, but left it up to the students to test what they've learned, and figure it out for themselves.

I'd like to toss you a few quotes, here is from Sifu Allan CK Lee, who has trained under Ip Man, and Duncan Leung

http://wingchunnyc.com/index.php/ar...ing_methods_and_procedures_of_wing_chun_kung/

Ip Man: ”Who I am is not important. The most important thing is what I teach you. If it works then it counts.”

Ip Man: ”Don’t believe what I tell you, use your common sense to learn, try it, use it, and find out for yourself.”

here is Sifu Lee practically explained the scientific method

Students will learn how to stay calm and dispassionately look at the problem to analyze it as a whole to determine the most logical angle of approach, move on to determining the most efficient method for tackling it, and subsequently developing the most efficient procedure to achieve their goal of solving it.

http://wingchunnyc.com/index.php/article/my_sifus_part_ii/

He concluded the lesson by saying, “I’m not telling you not to respect me or to question my knowledge. Of course you have to respect the Sifu. I want you to use your common sense. Accept what I say, research it. Test it. Don’t mystify the art. If you can’t see it, and if you can’t feel it, then how do you know it is correct and practical? This is the only way to understand.”

 

[dnovice]

errrr. yeah.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Oh please God not another one , spare us.

There is always someone (or 2 or 3) who thinks they can learn Wing Chun on their own without the guidance of a Sifu. I have to tell you, you will never be as good at Wing Chun as you think you are without the guidance and training of a knowledgeable sifu, period. There are so many ins and outs, sutble nuances to the structures, proper position and location to the hand movements, that you won't know about without being told from a sifu. The common mistakes that you will never know you're making without someone (qualified) pointing them out, correcting, and constantly fixing everything. The improper structures, positions, and bad habits will ruin and even prevent your developing your Wing Chun skills to a some what average level, so don't even think about getting to a much higher level of skill than that without a sifu's guidance.

I know a couple of guys (who shall remain nameless) in my area, who studied Wing Chun for a number of years on their own. Over the years, they have even tried to teach people, open and run schools (several times) without success. They never keep students more than a month or 2, because the students see them for what they are, terrible practitioners of Wing Chun. They are the laughing stock of the local MA community that I live in. Everyone knows about them and stay away from them like the plague. Five years after they started training (this was 20 years ago), they came to me to see how their Wing Chun (chi sao) stacked up. They were terrible, I bounced both of them around the hall at will without a bit of resistance. I took pity on them and had to stop cause I was tired of hitting them whenever I wanted. I had to work on everything just so I could roll with them. I worked with them for 2 hours trying to fix all the things they had wrong, stance, structure, hand position, energy, you name it, nothing was right. I asked them where they learned their Wing Chun and they claimed through videos and books, being self taught. And they thought they were above average at learning and developing physical skills. After everything was said and done, I even offered to teach them, but they refused, stating they thought they could do better with more self teaching. Now, 20 years later, their Wing Chun is still terrible, just as bad as when they first started training. It is definitely people like them who give our art a bad name.

And they aren't the only ones, I have met quite a few, claimed to be, MAist who have done the same thing. Taught themselves from books and videos thinking they could do better. But in my experience, I have found that those people never live up to the skill level they believe (in their own mind) they are. They walk into a MA school asking to test their skills only to have their asses handed to them without much effort.

We have a saying in Wing Chun 'Once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change'. Why re-invent the wheel (self taught), when you can buy one that already works (going to a qualified sifu).

So, you really should consider seeking out the guidance and training from a qualified Wing Chun instructor. It will save you a lot of time and frustration, and really make it easier to learn, and developing the skills happen much faster than trying to do it on your own. Because, if you don't, in a couple of years down the road, you will be that idiot that everyone in the martial arts community talks about, being the laughing stock in your area, giving Wing Chun a bad name.

 

[coffeerox]

and what is a qualified Sifu? I've seen WT 'technicians' be horrible teachers just as there are graduate assistants who teach better than professors do. I already see hints of bad kung fu just by listening to what's being said. Not saying your kung fu is bad, but of all the things I've heard that is my impression.

I ain't gonna lie, my WC sucks but at least I put myself out there, go balls out and apply what I know. That is what Kung Fu is, earning skill through hard work and practice. I bet those guys have never sparred a second in their life. Also those guys did not have what we have today. I admit that seminar videos only go so far, but things are advancing in this area where people are able to put together a more complete curriculum giving us exactly what we need to train.

Training the hard way (meaning going full speed/power, applying technique under pressure) is the only option I have at the moment until my move to Mesa is finalized and might be able to attend a few WC classes in that area once I get some income.

Times are changing. You either move along with it or resist it and keep rejecting it every chance you have. Find what is wrong with online training and find a solution. Not be a part of the problem.

edit: another thing I wanted to mention is that similar to what some university professors go through, 'Sifu' are even worse at. Professors are supposed to continuously produce research and development but not all Sifu will do this. Once they attain the rank of teacher, all progress stops and they just teach what they know. They don't even continue putting into practice what they know because their students will go into competitions such as Man Up Stand Up and get destroyed by people who has gone under rigorous training.

It's obviously not the system. Bruce Lee, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, all obviously made it work so why is it that modern fighters we commonly see, can't? The student is being shaped by the teacher, it's the teacher's fault if a student can't use the tools being given to them. What's my money going to buy me anyways? If I'm paying, I better be able to be proficient in a real situation.

 

[Flying Crane]

if you think i should find a sifu please rephrase ur reply in how i can improve the way i will be learning wing chun over the next few months

find a teacher.

 

[Flying Crane]

oh and coffeerox i believe i have gathered enough information and videos.. i have been looking around and researching everything for a couple of days now

A couple of days of research. No doubt you've found all you'll need. You must be exhausted.

 

[coffeerox]

find a teacher.

He HAS found a teacher. Your comment had no relevance to what he was asking.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's obviously not the system. Bruce Lee, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, all obviously made it work so why is it that modern fighters we commonly see, can't?

because they are trying to learn from books, video, online instruction and online discussions, INSTEAD OF FINDING A GOOD TEACHER, EVEN THO EVERYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF SENSE IS TELLING THEM TO FIND A GODDAM TEACHER!

 

[Flying Crane]

He HAS found a teacher. Your comment had no relevance to what he was asking.

his grandfather? Who he doesn't trust to teach him quality wing chun?

 

[coffeerox]

because they are trying to learn from books, video, online instruction and online discussions, INSTEAD OF FINDING A GOOD TEACHER, EVEN THO EVERYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF SENSE IS TELLING THEM TO FIND A GODDAM TEACHER!

I'm not even referring to self-trainers. I'm referring to people who have been classically taught! Explain THIS to me. Fact, money doesn't buy you talent. Money doesn't buy you a good teacher.

his grandfather? Who he doesn't trust to teach him quality wing chun?

In all fairness we don't even know if his grandfather knows quality wing chun or not. You're just going based on what he's told you. Remember that he does not yet know Wing Chun.