Need Something to Learn for SD

stonewall1350

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So I am looking to get into a self defense system. I already know Brazilian jujitsu. I train that as my sport art. I have a couple of kickers to add to this. So here they are:

1) I'm big. I'm about 6'1, but heavy. I'm looking for something that I can use my size and strength.

2) I carry a firearm 90% of the time in public (licensed and prospective law enforcement anyway...once I can get my girlfriend settled on her career path it will be my turn). I would like to have something that lets me get that into action.

3) I don't have a lot of time and I believe in fighting dirty. I don't do fist fights. I don't fight for pride. I'm not a "tough guy." I want something that really emphasizes quick and dirty and hard strikes.

4) I'm scared poopieless of knives. So something that teaches me to handle those would be nice.

I don't have a lot of time free either. But right now I'm just "shopping" for ideas.


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ST1Doppelganger

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Kali and or escrima I think would fit the circumstances that you described pretty well

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Chris Parker

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So I am looking to get into a self defense system. I already know Brazilian jujitsu. I train that as my sport art. I have a couple of kickers to add to this. So here they are:

Bearing in mind that physical engagement is only a very small part of what is "self defence", let's take a look at this.

1) I'm big. I'm about 6'1, but heavy. I'm looking for something that I can use my size and strength.

Irrelevant.

Look, stonewall, you've been around long enough to have seen this type of question from many, many others so you know how this goes. Frankly, there isn't any art that is "better" or "worse" it all comes down to how you make any particular art work for you and your physical situation. I'd also caution against looking to something that would rely on capitalising on such attributes no-one attacks someone they think has an advantage over them, so such aspects are largely going to be nullified by the attacker, either by numbers, weapons, experience, drugs/alcohol, or simply by being bigger and stronger.

2) I carry a firearm 90% of the time in public (licensed and prospective law enforcement anyway...once I can get my girlfriend settled on her career path it will be my turn). I would like to have something that lets me get that into action.

You want the option of employing a firearm? Get to the range, and practice deploying/accessing it constantly.In terms of a system that will incorporate it you're going to have to look at modern combatives systems such as Krav Maga. Some Bujinkan schools incorporate the ideas, at varying levels of competence, but Krav would be the more likely go-to.

As far as getting your girlfriend on her career path first hmm honestly, if you were one of my students, there'd be some rather pointed questions but I'll leave it here as saying that I'd advise you take a real look at why you're giving your priorities in that order are you using her lack of career as an excuse not to look to yours?

3) I don't have a lot of time and I believe in fighting dirty. I don't do fist fights. I don't fight for pride. I'm not a "tough guy." I want something that really emphasizes quick and dirty and hard strikes.

Yeah look, again, largely irrelevant. Going into learning a system with a pre-determined idea of what you like, then you'll leave yourself closed off to learning how the system itself teaches what (it feels) works.

4) I'm scared poopieless of knives. So something that teaches me to handle those would be nice.

Okay many systems will do that but have quite different approaches.

But, as always, looking for something that suits a customised ideal of your pre-conceptions of what you think works, or is important, is never going to be a fruitful search and, in the end, it's more important to find a school you can get to, with an instructor you can respect and listen to, that you can dedicate time and effort to. Having a system that's perfectly matched to your ideals, but on the other side of the country (or world), or the instructor is someone you can't learn from (or doesn't know what they're doing), then it's pointless just looking at that system. So the first question is always: What's around that you can visit? followed by: Have you visited them?

I don't have a lot of time free either. But right now I'm just "shopping" for ideas.

Then let me get a little blunt.

You're wanting essentially a custom-designed system, but don't have the time to dedicate to it, or even look for it? Honestly, I don't see a lot of success in this area for you unless something there changes.
 

Tez3

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Can't add anything to the above but just wanted to say I liked the expression 'scared poopieless'! :)
 
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stonewall1350

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Can't add anything to the above but just wanted to say I liked the expression 'scared poopieless'! :)

:) I couldn't think of a nice way of saying I DETEST knives with a passion. They scare me. Idk why. I suppose they are completely foreign to me as a combat system.


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Tez3

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:) I couldn't think of a nice way of saying I DETEST knives with a passion. They scare me. Idk why. I suppose they are completely foreign to me as a combat system.


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Very sensible to be scared of knives to be honest, I wish more people were so they'd give then some respect and stop teaching this 'just kick it out of the hand' rot. There is an awful lot of bad knife defence being taught.
 

Chris Parker

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I remember taking some of my guys through their first exposure to knife defence a while back I asked for feedback afterwards, to see what they gained out of the experience, and one of the more experienced ones said "Knives are scary!".

Damn straight.

Last thing I wanted was to give them a false sense of safety.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Take a look and see if there is some Filipino Martial Arts in your area specifically Pekiti Tirisa or Dekiti Tirsia. Dekiti is quick to learn, deals with edged weapons and takes into account firearms.
 

kuniggety

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I see adding specifically knife training or heading to a range and practicing with your hand gun both very beneficial. For something "quick and dirty" though, what about your BJJ training is not cutting it? Is your school too sport oriented for your tastes and not teaching more of the self-defense side? I think if you focus on more of your stand up game in BJJ it should work well for most self-defense situations. I can see you've been training in it for 5 years now... So you're probably an advanced blue or maybe a purple belt? I've been training for less than half of the time you have and feel very comfortable using my BJJ in a self-defense scenario.
 

Hanzou

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I agree with the poster who suggested Kali and Escrima. I think their stick/baton training would be very good for a police officer, since they use similar weaponry. Also it always helps knowing knife disarms, and those guys have some of the best around.
 

Danny T

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Martial Arts training and self defense training are two completely different animals. LEO training is yet another.
Handgun firearm target training and close quarter handgun firearm training are two completely different animals.
Be aware there are numerous FMA (Escrima and Kali systems) which are stick systems not edged weapon systems. There are many aspects of empty hand and stick systems that will get you badly hurt when applied vs an edged weapon or as an edged weapon system.
 

Chrisoro

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@stonewall1350

I would actually consider a good Krav Maga school. It will give you gross motor strikes that will compliment your BJJ well, and in which your strength would be a good advantage. Anyone who says that is irellevant for fighting, should try some honest sparring with someone at their own skill level, but at twice their own size. There is a reason most full contact combat sports employ weight classes. :)

Also, any good (and there is many bad Krav Maga schools, which is why I emphasize "good") Krav Maga school will also focus a lot on scenario training, awareness of ones environment, de-escalation and escape, improvised wepons as well as weapon defenses(included unarmed against knife) trained with increasing 穩ntensity as you get better at the techniques, all of which is a great way to get better prepared for self defence situations. While Kali/Escrima is good if you want to learn knife fighting, that is dueling with knives, their knife disarms and knife strips is generally quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements(same as with my own primary art, Hapkido), which at least I wouldn't reccomend in any real world unarmed self defense situations against an armed adversary, unless you are very skilled and have extensive training at performing under a high adrenaline load.

My two cents.
 

Argus

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@stonewall1350

I would actually consider a good Krav Maga school. It will give you gross motor strikes that will compliment your BJJ well, and in which your strength would be a good advantage. Anyone who says that is irellevant for fighting, should try some honest sparring with someone at their own skill level, but at twice their own size. There is a reason most full contact combat sports employ weight classes. :)

Also, any good (and there is many bad Krav Maga schools, which is why I emphasize "good") Krav Maga school will also focus a lot on scenario training, awareness of ones environment, de-escalation and escape, improvised wepons as well as weapon defenses(included unarmed against knife) trained with increasing 穩ntensity as you get better at the techniques, all of which is a great way to get better prepared for self defence situations. While Kali/Escrima is good if you want to learn knife fighting, that is dueling with knives, their knife disarms and knife strips is generally quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements(same as with my own primary art, Hapkido), which at least I wouldn't reccomend in any real world unarmed self defense situations against an armed adversary, unless you are very skilled and have extensive training at performing under a high adrenaline load.

My two cents.

I would actually challenge that statement. While some may approach it that way, most of what I've experienced first hand is quite combative and looking to quickly and efficiently end the confrontation.

Again, though, it depends on the school. Some may be big on "sparring" in such a way that resembles a duel, or sportive bout, in which neither participant is really being aggressive or trying to engage their opponent or escape. I would agree that this kind of practice is not really replicating a self-defense context. But then, I've not personally encountered this.
 

Chrisoro

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Well, seems like our experiences differ then. Or we may just look at the same thing trough different filters, which would give us different perspectives.

My experience with FMA have primarily been seminars in Doce Pares, Kali Sikaran and Bahala Na, as well as various instructional DVDs in the same arts. But I have never experience that seminar/dvd content differ enormously from regular practice in any of the other arts that I have attended regular practice in for years, so I'm not really sure why it would be much different with FMAs.
 

geezer

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Well, seems like our experiences differ then. Or we may just look at the same thing trough different filters, which would give us different perspectives.

My experience with FMA have primarily been seminars in Doce Pares, Kali Sikaran and Bahala Na, as well as various instructional DVDs in the same arts. But I have never experience that seminar/dvd content differ enormously from regular practice in any of the other arts that I have attended regular practice in for years, so I'm not really sure why it would be much different with FMAs.

I have to agree with Argus that your previous statement was a generalization and not totally accurate. On the other hand, it is a true enough description of a lot of what you see out there, especially on Youtube.

So why should it be different with FMAs? I don't know if it is for some other FMAs. On the other hand, the term FMA covers a lot of territory. The systems you mentioned above are just a few among many, and many systems do not have a big public face.

My foundation is Latosa Escrima Concepts which is very direct and powerful, not complex and "artsy". I also train with Maestro Martin Torres' DTE-MMA group and their Eskrima is similarly practical. My own school teaches PCE (Practical Combative Escrima) which is also very direct, but taught in a way that integrates well with my Wing Chun classes. None of these have much of a public presence.

Based on the OP, FMAs ...(the right FMA) really fit the ticket. I would recommend that Stonewall check out something like Mike Blackgrave's Seamok group. Mike's also big strong guy with some hardcore training that would be right up his alley. Or maybe Mark Dennys Kali Tudo or other Dog Brothers stuff. Anyway, @Stonewall--best of luck in your search.
 

Chrisoro

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I am fully aware of the fact that my view is based on a limited selection, and are open to the possibility that I either didn't see enough of the arts I sampled to be able to make a wellinformed view, or that those arts aren't representative to all the other FMA out there. But I am also open to the possibility that our difference in view may be about differences in perspective and in what we would perceive and define as "quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements".
 

Sapphire

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krotty or bust, yo.

Just kidding. :) In my experience, you're not going to get the experience I got from my Kung Fu school, or the experience someone else got at their boxing school. That's why shopping and trying and studying are your best options. As long as you train safe, train smart, and train hard, you'll be all set. But things I personally encourage my friends to look out for is:
1. if you're looking for self defense, keep asking about that. Don't let them sell you on forms, katas, and fantasies of beating up 10 men. The best way to do that is by attending a class. Because if you do, and they don't do a lick of throwing around a big guy like you, it's just not worth your time. That same thing can be said for cardio or a fun hobby. If they're not giving you what you ask for in your intro class, you're not at the right place.
2. Find a place that encourages you to always do better. Not just "learn the form pass the test" blackbelt factories. Your instructor should be leaps and bounds better than you at most exercises. If your instructor is a 40 year old man with a noticeable beer gut and no definition to his arms at all, he definitely won't encourage me to work out more.
3. Empty your cup. I know it's a cute little wise old man clich矇 but it has value. If you show up convinced that you know what to do in situation a, b, or xyz32-7, then you're not going to learn anything because your ego has already taught you. It blew my mind when my Sifu explained that there's no technique for one situation, and that playing match-up games with techniques is dangerous. I thought he was crazy, but now I get it.
 

ballen0351

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I have nothing to add on the style to pick but if your reason for getting into law enforcement is to "get into the action" please dont. Things are already hard enough on us now as it is with out that kind of attitude trying to join the ranks
 

Argus

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I am fully aware of the fact that my view is based on a limited selection, and are open to the possibility that I either didn't see enough of the arts I sampled to be able to make a wellinformed view, or that those arts aren't representative to all the other FMA out there. But I am also open to the possibility that our difference in view may be about differences in perspective and in what we would perceive and define as "quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements".

I was arguing the "geared towards duelling" point, more so than the gross motor skills point. I will say that, coming from a WC background, much of FMA seem to me to train gross motor skills, but that's where our perspectives on what constitutes "gross" or "fine" motorskills differ.

I think the discussion of gross vs fine motor skills often overlooks the nature of the skill involved. I've trained under enough stress to begin inducing difficulty with fine motor skills, and generally, I have no problem using the more fine-motor skills such as we employ in WC, or arguably, FMA, because they nonetheless flow and are intuitive. What trips me up are very sequential, mechanical actions -- for example, accessing a folding knife in your pocket, orienting it the right way, finding the locking mechanism with your thumb, activating it and extending or flipping the blade, and then reorienting the knife into a useful grip. Or, remembering to say, actuate external safeties on a firearm. These are not intuitive actions, and their sequences cannot be altered, and that's why these skills break down so quickly under stress. But I think that more intuitive use of one's hands -- even when this entails fine motor skills, is a different animal. After all, I'd argue that aiming a handgun and pressing the trigger are far more involved fine-motor skill actions than the majority of empty hand or blade/impact weapon techniques we practice in WC or FMA.

I should also point out that TMAs spend a lot of time on building skills as opposed to just focusing on application. So, when you see these complicated patterns and flow drills where each practitioner is going back and forth forever, that kind of thing is not meant to simulate a fight or duel -- it's just a drill to make particular skills and reactions more intuitive. So, don't confuse everything you see with direct application.
 
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Chrisoro

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I should also point out that TMAs spend a lot of time on building skills as opposed to just focusing on application. So, when you see these complicated patterns and flow drills where each practitioner is going back and forth forever, that kind of thing is not meant to simulate a fight or duel -- it's just a drill to make particular skills and reactions more intuitive. So, don't confuse everything you see with direct application.

As a black belt in two TMAs, as well as having quite extensive experience in other TMAs and combat sports, I don't.
 
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