Detroit Gang Rape....

Brian R. VanCise

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I put this on my blog and wanted to bring attention to it and possibly, hopefully, someone knows who these people are and will turn them in.

Here is the story:
Detroit Gang Rape The Instinctive Edge

Tragic, awful and hopefully the police or community will catch them and justice can be served.

Now, from a personal protection outlook how do you avoid this? What precautions can you take?
 
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Brian R. VanCise

Brian R. VanCise

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One thing I want to make clear before we move forward is that all of our thoughts and prayers are with the victims in this awful incident. This is a very tragic and serious situation.
 

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Tragic just isn't the word for it. I can't imagine how I would react if a friend or family member were sexually assaulted in this kind of capacity.

So from the video I take it there's multiple people, most being used to keep the man from fighting back while the woman is assaulted. Man, that's a rough one. I'm definitely a firm believer in firearms training and concealed carry, but this is on a different level. Of course, a guy with a bullet hole in his leg, arm, or abdomen is going to be a hell of a lot easier to catch than a guy without that. A composite sketch will show us a face, but he's either going to the hospital, or he's dying from lead poisoning after being shot.

But on the other hand, there's that serious wave of people who believe that rape is solely a result of men being raised to think that sexual assault is okay, and that nobody should need to carry any form of weapon or know any form of self defense, because men simply need to be told to not rape people. What do you do about that?
 

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Tragic just isn't the word for it. I can't imagine how I would react if a friend or family member were sexually assaulted in this kind of capacity.

So from the video I take it there's multiple people, most being used to keep the man from fighting back while the woman is assaulted. Man, that's a rough one. I'm definitely a firm believer in firearms training and concealed carry, but this is on a different level. Of course, a guy with a bullet hole in his leg, arm, or abdomen is going to be a hell of a lot easier to catch than a guy without that. A composite sketch will show us a face, but he's either going to the hospital, or he's dying from lead poisoning after being shot.

But on the other hand, there's that serious wave of people who believe that rape is solely a result of men being raised to think that sexual assault is okay, and that nobody should need to carry any form of weapon or know any form of self defense, because men simply need to be told to not rape people. What do you do about that?

First, horrific.

Secondly, as an approach to responding to this situation, there is the old saying which I rate (which is endorsed by quite a few experienced or otherwise credible defence advisers such as Miller, Strong, de Becker), no matter what "don't get in the back of the van", i.e don't comply or give more control to your assailant(s). Avoid "crime scene #2" at all costs.

No matter how tough it may be or seem when at gun/knife point or faced with numbers, don't go down the alley, move quickly into more peopled areas, etc, make a hell of a loud noise about it as you do so. If they try to man handle or bustle you into the alley, etc, then you resist to the death and make even more noise.

The misguided belief that giving up some "temporary" control to your assailant is just that, misguided. It allows your mind to lull you into the "everything will be alright if I comply" dreamland. You don't get that control given back, you need to keep giving up more control until you are in that back alley or tied up and then it's quits.

If they are going to shoot you and your girl in the street in public when you don't comply, they are gonna be a lot more nasty when they get you in private, and may still shoot you afterwards or leave you to live with the experience. Like in this terrible crime as posted by Brian.

You and your partner need to be of the mind set that it if you are going to be shot, stabbed, then it is better to be so while the assailant is under pressure and without time and in public, rather than when you are isolated and at their mercy.

Pre-emptive and preparedness training: Talk about these principles and other self-defences responses/avoidance techs with your partner/family - so your gal knows and expects what you will do and, importantly, what is expected of her (I only put it this way as I am a bloke, for you members which are females and taking the lead in the MA or SD training, then it's up to you to up-skill your partner likewise).
 
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oftheherd1

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First, horrific.

Secondly, as an approach to responding to this situation, there is the old saying which I rate (which is endorsed by quite a few experienced or otherwise credible defence advisers such as Miller, Strong, de Becker), no matter what "don't get in the back of the van", i.e don't comply or give more control to your assailant(s). Avoid "crime scene #2" at all costs.

No matter how tough it may be or seem when at gun/knife point or faced with numbers, don't go down the alley, move quickly into more peopled areas, etc, make a hell of a loud noise about it as you do so. If they try to man handle or bustle you into the alley, etc, then you resist to the death and make even more noise.

The misguided belief that giving up some "temporary" control to your assailant is just that, misguided. It allows your mind to lull you into the "everything will be alright if I comply" dreamland. You don't get that control given back, you need to keep giving up more control until you are in that back alley or tied up and then it's quits.

If they are going to shoot you and your girl in the street in public when you don't comply, they are gonna be a lot more nasty when they get you in private, and may still shoot you afterwards or leave you to live with the experience. Like in this terrible crime as posted by Brian.

You and your partner need to be of the mind set that it if you are going to be shot, stabbed, then it is better to be so while the assailant is under pressure and without time and in public, rather than when you are isolated and at their mercy.

Pre-emptive and preparedness training: Talk about these principles and other self-defences responses/avoidance techs with your partner/family - so your gal knows and expects what you will do and, importantly, what is expected of her (I only put it this way as I am a bloke, for you members which are females and taking the lead in the MA or SD training, then it's up to you to up-skill your partner likewise).

Unfortunately, it isn't one size fits all. And if you misjudge the intent/resolve of the attackers, you and/or your companion may die. There is no muggins. Is death better if your companion gets raped or also killed anyway? Can your companion better get through if you are alive to console him/her, or exact revenge? Of course, the question needs to be asked how will you, the strong one, get through the aftermath?

Having walked on your response I should now give you the correct solution. Sorry, I cannot. As I said, there is no one size fits all. While I can understand and perhaps even agree with part of what I bolded above, it does bear a lot of soul searching. Paragraph 3 is certainly good advice if you think it will work better. Being prepared ahead of time is a really good idea, especially if you set your mind to fight over hoping it is only a simple robbery. Better is to avoid the confrontation to begin with. But life sometimes doesn't allow simple pre-planned avoidances. Everyone is going to have to decide ahead of time what they think they would do, and have as many possible responses planned ahead as possible, then at the moment of need, decide.

God forbid I or any members of MT have to made such a decision, but you can only try to be as prepared as possible. And know you may not survive, fight or not.
 

Zero

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Unfortunately, it isn't one size fits all. And if you misjudge the intent/resolve of the attackers, you and/or your companion may die. There is no muggins. Is death better if your companion gets raped or also killed anyway? Can your companion better get through if you are alive to console him/her, or exact revenge? Of course, the question needs to be asked how will you, the strong one, get through the aftermath?

Having walked on your response I should now give you the correct solution. Sorry, I cannot. As I said, there is no one size fits all. While I can understand and perhaps even agree with part of what I bolded above, it does bear a lot of soul searching. Paragraph 3 is certainly good advice if you think it will work better. Being prepared ahead of time is a really good idea, especially if you set your mind to fight over hoping it is only a simple robbery. Better is to avoid the confrontation to begin with. But life sometimes doesn't allow simple pre-planned avoidances. Everyone is going to have to decide ahead of time what they think they would do, and have as many possible responses planned ahead as possible, then at the moment of need, decide.

God forbid I or any members of MT have to made such a decision, but you can only try to be as prepared as possible. And know you may not survive, fight or not.

I think maybe I either expressed myself poorly or you have misinterpreted Offtheherd, or we are talking at cross purposes...or you actually do think my post a pile of crap, which is cool! : ).

If it is a simple mugging and some dude is asking for your wallet, then hand it over or chuck it on the floor and run by all means and avoid further altercation. Anything like that I am perfect agreement with you.

But what I absolutely will stand by is, if the mugger is saying, "come with me to the back alley and give me your money", do not do so in any instance (regardless of what you think the intentions may be). Police reports and statistics (at least as quoted in my readings, including from the authors I have noted above) show that your chances decrease markedly when you are taken to isolated areas.

This is not simple pre-planed "avoidance" here. There is no avoidance of the situation, the "response" is using all means, mental, physical, weapons, etc not to be conveyed or to go willingly to crime scene #2.

Would be good to have some LEO input/views on this also.

Offtheherd - Please explain to me, such as in the horrific example posted by Brian, how you are going to avoid the altercation - if an assailant or group of men have come up to you with (or without) a knife/gun, etc and are saying "come with us or else"?

I am all for de-escalation, but in this instance do you really think that route is going to be available?

Other than not complying and seeking to leave their "custody", what are you going to do, are you saying you would get in the back of the van with them in some instances in the hope you or your wife won't be hurt?
 
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Zero

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Can your companion better get through if you are alive to console him/her, or exact revenge? Of course, the question needs to be asked how will you, the strong one, get through the aftermath?

This is all a horrible area so I don't really want to get into it but don't always assume "you" will be the strong one. Maybe the girl who goes through the ordeal first hand can manage/cope better with the aftermath than the boyfriend forced to watch. Maybe he is the one that develops more issues or can't "move on", hard to say, it ain't always clear cut...

A long, long while back I read that there was a period when certain gangs in Mexico were actually targeting couples coming south of the border but that they actually subjected the male to the rape in front of the girl. Nightmare!! (not saying this in any way worse than female rape of course (!) but what a grim thing!)
 

oftheherd1

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I think maybe I either expressed myself poorly or you have misinterpreted Offtheherd, or we are talking at cross purposes...or you actually do think my post a pile of crap, which is cool! : ).

Perhaps I am the one who expressed myself unclearly.

...

But what I absolutely will stand by is, if the mugger is saying, "come with me to the back alley and give me your money", do not do so in any instance (regardless of what you think the intentions may be). Police reports and statistics (at least as quoted in my readings, including from the authors I have noted above) show that your chances decrease markedly when you are taken to isolated areas.

You say there is no way one should comply with being told to give up location control. Do you have any statistics on how many times that has been done and all that happened was the robbery was completed out of sight of the public? (I don't and don't have time to pursue that right now)

This is not simple pre-planed "avoidance" here. There is no avoidance of the situation, the "response" is using all means, mental, physical, weapons, etc not to be conveyed or to go willingly to crime scene #2.

That's all well and good. Assuming you prefer death to rape or having to watch a rape of someone you feel you should protect, and assuming that person would prefer death as well. How do you make sure of that, and that even if you or the other person has said so, at the last minute, faced with death, nobody will change their mind?

Would be good to have some LEO input/views on this also.

Also some people who have actually been in such situations, or even in sudden confrontations with situations that could/would result in death and had only a few seconds to make their decision, right or wrong?

Offtheherd - Please explain to me, such as in the horrific example posted by Brian, how you are going to avoid the altercation - if an assailant or group of men have come up to you with (or without) a knife/gun, etc and are saying "come with us or else"?

As I said, I cannot. Each terrible situation like was described, depends on all the people involved and what they want to decide at the moment.

I am all for de-escalation, but in this instance do you really think that route is going to be available?

I could not know until confronted with the situation. I would be torn up inside if I were the man and that happened. But I would prefer not to die and my companion be raped anyway. If I live, I can hope to find them so they can face some kind of justice.

Other than not complying and seeking to leave their "custody", what are you going to do, are you saying you would get in the back of the van with them in some instances in the hope you or your wife won't be hurt?

Or the hope,(or drive) that I can exact vengeance? But I cannot know what I would do. I can only think about it ahead of time and hope I make the right choice, if God forbid, I should ever have to.


This is all a horrible area so I don't really want to get into it but don't always assume "you" will be the strong one. Maybe the girl who goes through the ordeal first hand can manage/cope better with the aftermath than the boyfriend forced to watch. Maybe he is the one that develops more issues or can't "move on", hard to say, it ain't always clear cut...

A long, long while back I read that there was a period when certain gangs in Mexico were actually targeting couples coming south of the border but that they actually subjected the male to the rape in front of the girl. Nightmare!! (not saying this in any way worse than female rape of course (!) but what a grim thing!)

The underlined/bolded was what I have been trying to say all along. Your second paragraph doesn't sound right, but who knows. When people decide to violate law and mores, especially sexual mores or law, they can do some pretty bizarre things. But considering mexican machoism, I still have my doubts.
 

Zero

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Perhaps I am the one who expressed myself unclearly.
It's good we share opinions on such things. I have my approach and have discussed such matters at length with my partner, you and everyone else willl have their own approach. Your points are all good and I try to answer them below.

...



You say there is no way one should comply with being told to give up location control. Do you have any statistics on how many times that has been done and all that happened was the robbery was completed out of sight of the public? (I don't and don't have time to pursue that right now)
This is a very valid point and question, it is very hard to test such things. That said, from the reading I have done (and I can only hope and assume the police/crime stats they source and draw on are true/correct), the message seems to be that "victims" of crimes committed in public, rather than isolated in the majority fair much better, whereas where victims are isloated, there is a far higher percentage of it ending badly/fatallly.


That's all well and good. Assuming you prefer death to rape or having to watch a rape of someone you feel you should protect, and assuming that person would prefer death as well. How do you make sure of that, and that even if you or the other person has said so, at the last minute, faced with death, nobody will change their mind?
No, I didn't say I prefer death to rape. It is wrong (in my opinion and those of most SD spcialists I have followed) to conclude that not allowing them to move you to crime scene #2 (the isolated area) increases your chances of being shot/killed. What makes you think the assailent will actually shoot you while in public if you resist and move on? They could have done so in any event from the start, if that is the concern or argument - the reason they want to isolate you is so they have more time and control and privacey to do whatever they want, including shooting/kiiling you. If you run, and if they still have the intention of shooting, the odds on them hitting you while you are running and particularly in a public area populated with others, etc are less than where they have you under control in an isolated area.

In addition, how do you know once the rape has occured that they still won't try to kill you to remove witnesses, for the fun of it, etc?



Also some people who have actually been in such situations, or even in sudden confrontations with situations that could/would result in death and had only a few seconds to make their decision, right or wrong?
Absolutely, my action (not decision), it's already been pre-determined, may result in tradegy. But from my informed research, I think it hightens my and my loved ones' overall chances of safety.



As I said, I cannot. Each terrible situation like was described, depends on all the people involved and what they want to decide at the moment.
that is one way to look at it, there is another way. As above, I am not going to decide at that moment "hmm, do I go with this guy/this group who have bad intentions". I will re-act as have trained and preped for. If they ask for the wallet, give it to them there and then and move on. No reason why you have to go into the dark alleyway to give them your wallet.



I could not know until confronted with the situation. I would be torn up inside if I were the man and that happened. But I would prefer not to die and my companion be raped anyway. If I live, I can hope to find them so they can face some kind of justice.
Understood, again, as above, I (and that's just me but there seem to be a heck of a lot of others out there that have researched this stuff and interviewed numerous victims, police and criminals and assalents and psychopaths in prison (such as de Becker)) think overall my odds are better in resisting and moving on at all costs.



The underlined/bolded was what I have been trying to say all along. Your second paragraph doesn't sound right, but who knows. When people decide to violate law and mores, especially sexual mores or law, they can do some pretty bizarre things. But considering mexican machoism, I still have my doubts.
Yeah, agreed, I wish I could remember where I read it, maybe it is one of these "urban myth" things. I am certain I read it though in some publication.
 

oftheherd1

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It's good we share opinions on such things. I have my approach and have discussed such matters at length with my partner, you and everyone else willl have their own approach. Your points are all good and I try to answer them below.

...

It is always good to share opinions. Especially when done respectfully.

This is a very valid point and question, it is very hard to test such things. That said, from the reading I have done (and I can only hope and assume the police/crime stats they source and draw on are true/correct), the message seems to be that "victims" of crimes committed in public, rather than isolated in the majority fair much better, whereas where victims are isloated, there is a far higher percentage of it ending badly/fatallly.

I agree it is hard to check. And any statistics would probably by skewed by under reporting which is acknowledged to be common with sex crimes. Truthfully, I would be concerned about complying with an order to get into a van or go into an alley. I would not want to do so for the reasons you have already mentioned. But I just thought you came on a little too strongly. When there are choices with such severe possible consequences, they should not be made emotionally or lightly. When a possible/probable consequence is death, the stakes go up. Death is final. Each person should take that into consideration in their preplanning. Which decision is most likely to prevent a death.

No, I didn't say I prefer death to rape. It is wrong (in my opinion and those of most SD spcialists I have followed) to conclude that not allowing them to move you to crime scene #2 (the isolated area) increases your chances of being shot/killed. What makes you think the assailent will actually shoot you while in public if you resist and move on? They could have done so in any event from the start, if that is the concern or argument - the reason they want to isolate you is so they have more time and control and privacey to do whatever they want, including shooting/kiiling you. If you run, and if they still have the intention of shooting, the odds on them hitting you while you are running and particularly in a public area populated with others, etc are less than where they have you under control in an isolated area.

In addition, how do you know once the rape has occured that they still won't try to kill you to remove witnesses, for the fun of it, etc?

The problem is one doesn't know. But one will have to live with the consequences, unless one dies as a result of the decision made. I would prefer to run away screaming and neither I or my companion be hurt. But what are the probabilities either way? Who knows?

Absolutely, my action (not decision), it's already been pre-determined, may result in tradegy. But from my informed research, I think it hightens my and my loved ones' overall chances of safety.

It may well. But are you sure you can live with the tragedy?

that is one way to look at it, there is another way. As above, I am not going to decide at that moment "hmm, do I go with this guy/this group who have bad intentions". I will re-act as have trained and preped for. If they ask for the wallet, give it to them there and then and move on. No reason why you have to go into the dark alleyway to give them your wallet.

Understood, again, as above, I (and that's just me but there seem to be a heck of a lot of others out there that have researched this stuff and interviewed numerous victims, police and criminals and assalents and psychopaths in prison (such as de Becker)) think overall my odds are better in resisting and moving on at all costs.

That is sound thinking. Not all perpetrators think soundly. If moving people out of sight of the public has worked for them in the past, that is what they will want to keep doing, sure it is their best chance for success. Not that they necessarily want to commit a sex crime or kill their victim. But one has no way of discerning the perps intentions until they are tested.

Yeah, agreed, I wish I could remember where I read it, maybe it is one of these "urban myth" things. I am certain I read it though in some publication.

No matter, I think it is of little importance to this discussion.

But I am a little surprised no one else has offered any suggestions. When accosted, is all lost? Is there no way to fight, or give up a little and run? What can frustrate a perpetrator without causing death or injury to result. Has anyone here been in such a circumstance who would wish to share what they did and why?
 

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Truthfully, I would be concerned about complying with an order to get into a van or go into an alley. I would not want to do so for the reasons you have already mentioned. But I just thought you came on a little too strongly. When there are choices with such severe possible consequences, they should not be made emotionally or lightly. When a possible/probable consequence is death, the stakes go up. Death is final. Each person should take that into consideration in their preplanning. Which decision is most likely to prevent a death.
You're right, normally I am very open minded and am of the view that any SD situation may have several potential responses/actions - and that one should remain fluid. But in this situation whenever there is the threat of being moved to crime scene #2, I am prepared to be rigid in my approach and not to be moved to an isolated area or to hand over more control such as allowing my hands/body to be tied to a chair, etc. As you say death is final and my view is that death becomes that much closer in every instance where you allow yourself to become more isolated or allow yourself to be immobilised, rather than trying to run and resist this.

It would be good to see if others have views on this discussion or have other credible options...but I think they hate Brian's post or our ramblings...:)
 

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You're right, normally I am very open minded and am of the view that any SD situation may have several potential responses/actions - and that one should remain fluid. But in this situation whenever there is the threat of being moved to crime scene #2, I am prepared to be rigid in my approach and not to be moved to an isolated area or to hand over more control such as allowing my hands/body to be tied to a chair, etc. As you say death is final and my view is that death becomes that much closer in every instance where you allow yourself to become more isolated or allow yourself to be immobilised, rather than trying to run and resist this.

It would be good to see if others have views on this discussion or have other credible options...but I think they hate Brian's post or our ramblings...:)

My guess is that it is just a difficult subject to have to confront. And we haven't helped matters any by our remarks. You have pointed out the macho response many of us would love to employ, knowing we can take on at least a platoon of bad guys and wipe them out. Why not? We do train to fight and defend ourselves. I have pointed out a reality of fights against armed opponents, that I think should be taken into consideration prior to committing to actions that are themselves likely to end badly, perhaps in death.

I don't think there is an easy answer, nor one that guarantees a safe outcome. But it doesn't hurt to discuss the possible responses, and their possible outcomes, good or bad. It lets us evaluate what we are more comfortable doing. I think that is also important. So, Zero, I guess we will just have to wait and see if anyone else wants to comment.

While we wait, I would encourage those whose beliefs accommodate the idea, to pray for the police efforts to get the perpetrators off the street, and for the victims to have quick healing, both physically and mentally.
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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This is a difficult subject. One that some people will simply not want to comment on and that is fine. However, people need to know what is going on out there from a personal protection awareness mind set so that they can make plans should anything ever happen to them or better yet prevent it from happening!

From almost all personal protection experts opinion do not be moved to a secondary location. This in general ends badly. I forgot where I saw the statistics from but people moved to another location almost invariably have a bad outcome. Of course though there are always exceptions.
 

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This has been covered, but I'll join the camp that says:
The street where the gun was produced is the initial crime scene and the alley they instructed them to go to is the secondary crime scene.

Whatever they plan to do at the secondary crime scene, they can't or don't want to do at the initial crime scene. NEVER go to the secondary crime scene:

Run. Fight. Yell "Oh my god! Please don't kill me with that handgun! Please, he has a gun! He's going to kill us! Someone call the police!".

Anything to disrupt their plan. Something bad my still happen, but if you go with them, something bad will happen. With couples, it's tough, you have to talk about this ahead of time, because you can't when it's going down. Have a code word for "run".

Deepest empathy for the victims in these cases, I hope the catch these guys soon.

--Credit to the writings of Sanford Strong and Rory Miller for my views.
 

oftheherd1

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This has been covered, but I'll join the camp that says:
The street where the gun was produced is the initial crime scene and the alley they instructed them to go to is the secondary crime scene.

Whatever they plan to do at the secondary crime scene, they can't or don't want to do at the initial crime scene. NEVER go to the secondary crime scene:

Run. Fight. Yell "Oh my god! Please don't kill me with that handgun! Please, he has a gun! He's going to kill us! Someone call the police!".

Anything to disrupt their plan. Something bad my still happen, but if you go with them, something bad will happen. With couples, it's tough, you have to talk about this ahead of time, because you can't when it's going down. Have a code word for "run".

Deepest empathy for the victims in these cases, I hope the catch these guys soon.

--Credit to the writings of Sanford Strong and Rory Miller for my views.

I don't disagree with not going to the secondary scene. That advice has validity. I do like your advice that they don't want to do what they want to do, in sight of others, and to scream, run, or yell for someone to call 911. Good ideas that may well disrupt their plan and cause them to run.

But I do stand by saying that each situation has to be evaluated on its own, with the knowledge that fight, flight, or freeze, your choice may lead to someone's death.

Thinking about it, I accused Zero of coming on too strong. I wonder if maybe I did? Meekly going to a second scene does carry enormous risks as well. If the perps wish to engage in rape instead of wallets, what else may they be willing to do to avoid discovery? No easy choices.
 

oftheherd1

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This is a difficult subject. One that some people will simply not want to comment on and that is fine. However, people need to know what is going on out there from a personal protection awareness mind set so that they can make plans should anything ever happen to them or better yet prevent it from happening!

From almost all personal protection experts opinion do not be moved to a secondary location. This in general ends badly. I forgot where I saw the statistics from but people moved to another location almost invariably have a bad outcome. Of course though there are always exceptions.

I have also heard that moving to a secondary location is bad. Probably one of the reasons there isn't more comment in this thread, is what you may confront whichever way you jump. And probably another is someone may not want to say "ends badly" means. In your Detroit example, neither victim was killed, only greatly humiliated with no doubt subsequent severe mental distress. But suppose they had begun running and screaming and that spooked the man with the gun so that he fired on them and killed one. Now, if all that occurs is mental distress versus a victim being killed, is the humiliation and rape worse?

I can tell you I am very much against rape, and those who do it don't deserve to be called men in my opinion. Rape takes a terrible toll on most women. But, would it be better to have a live companion whom you can help to recover from any mental distress, or a dead one and all you can say is she won't suffer further? Again, I know that is a tough question that may have more than one answer. But, like Brian, I think it is worth confronting and discussing, offering suggestions for avoiding or mitigating such a fate. Especially avoidance, but mitigation would be good too.
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Zero

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I have also heard that moving to a secondary location is bad. Probably one of the reasons there isn't more comment in this thread, is what you may confront whichever way you jump. And probably another is someone may not want to say "ends badly" means. In your Detroit example, neither victim was killed, only greatly humiliated with no doubt subsequent severe mental distress. But suppose they had begun running and screaming and that spooked the man with the gun so that he fired on them and killed one. Now, if all that occurs is mental distress versus a victim being killed, is the humiliation and rape worse?

I can tell you I am very much against rape, and those who do it don't deserve to be called men in my opinion. Rape takes a terrible toll on most women. But, would it be better to have a live companion whom you can help to recover from any mental distress, or a dead one and all you can say is she won't suffer further? Again, I know that is a tough question that may have more than one answer. But, like Brian, I think it is worth confronting and discussing, offering suggestions for avoiding or mitigating such a fate. Especially avoidance, but mitigation would be good too.
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The idea about discussing this further and particularly with your partner as to potential responses is great and I would say crucial. It is always good to have your partner's take on things and to discus scenarios in advance. Sometimes you can be surprised what your "gal's" view and approach actually is on these things...
 
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