Need some help with my little issue..

Hanzou

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I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma. The op has trained krav for two years and has done situational training. His situational training failed to prepare him for this incident. He's also done sparring that failed to prepare him for this incident. I question the sparring he did and its effectiveness. The op mentioned he wore gloves, and trained punches, kicks and elbows to weak points. This sounds suspicious to me as far as hard contact soarring is concerned. Elbows with no headgear is not something many schools do regularly, especially if they don't spar regularly. Improper sparring does not build true confidence. Drills will ways leave doubt in your mind. There is no substitute for the confidence and knowledge that comes when you know an opponent has done everything they can to stop you and you have still prevailed. You can't train every situation, relying on situational training without hard sparring will not build adequate confidence. Perhaps both are good training tools but I value hard sparring over other methods like situational training but situational training can help you optimize and apply the knowledge gained from sparring.

I think the op should seriously consider a system that spars regularly such as bjj, judo, or boxing. These systems will build confidence in the face of aggression. Perhaps combined with his rbsd knowledge gained from krav he will be well prepared for a real conflict.

I agree completely.

I had the same freezing issues as the OP coming out of Shotokan. Boxing, Judo, and Bjj (ironically the exact same three arts Mephisto mentioned) fixed that problem fairly quickly, enhancing my natural reactions to a situation where someone was trying to physically dominate me.

I would also recommend the OP to go to a gym that practices those types of arts in addition to his Krav training. Perhaps a good MMA gym maybe a good solution for his dilemma?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma.
Agree!

No matter what style that you may train, you will need to move your body to be out of "uncomfortable situation" even if you don't intend to get into a fight. Both good footwork plus good body method will be needed.

When your opponent stands in front of you and put his right hand behind your neck,

- by using your right hand to grab on his right wrist,
- put your left arm under his right arm, and hold on his left shoulder,
- step your right leg behind your left leg,
- with a fast body spinning to your right,

you should not only get yourself out of the "uncomfortable situation", you can also "crack" your opponent's right elbow joint, and take him all the way down to the ground.

Since "single neck tie" is commonly used in the wrestling match, you can develop this skill through your daily 15 rounds wrestling match,

cracking.jpg
 
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hoshin1600

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one thing i think that is being over looked is that in the situation described, an escalation was not called for. unless there is more to the story. any physical reaction would be escalating a mostly verbal but intimidating situation into a physical one.
here in the U.S. someone can be screaming at you and if you punch them or react physically then you are committing assault. now the perpetrator did grab the defender in a physical manner that can be perceived as threatening or intimidating. but as a defender without an action that can be recognized as a physical assault , like a punch or a type of hit, the brain will be stuck in limbo trying to decide if a reaction is the right thing to do or not and if it is truly needed. in this case we are assuming that everyone went home safe without a fight. to me that implies no action was the right thing to do (albeit a little sore on the ego).
this situation happens all the time. maybe someone is yelling and poking me in the chest, maybe i see a few shady looking characters walking towards me down the street, or maybe a gangsta looking teen is right up close to me talking trash in my face. at what point do you pull the switch and let the fists fly? as martial practitioners we should have made that decision and defined what that point is both personally and legally during our training and not in the heat of the moment. yes ,every situation is different but we should at least be able to recongnize that X-Y&Z must be present before we can legally make a step up in escalation of the force continuum.
 

Mephisto

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I agree completely.

I had the same freezing issues as the OP coming out of Shotokan. Boxing, Judo, and Bjj (ironically the exact same three arts Mephisto mentioned) fixed that problem fairly quickly, enhancing my natural reactions to a situation where someone was trying to physically dominate me.

I would also recommend the OP to go to a gym that practices those types of arts in addition to his Krav training. Perhaps a good MMA gym maybe a good solution for his dilemma?
Yeah, but didn't we ready decide that you didn't train "teh realz" shotokan? All other shotokan schools spar full contact and include grappling,your argument is invalid :)
one thing i think that is being over looked is that in the situation described, an escalation was not called for. unless there is more to the story. any physical reaction would be escalating a mostly verbal but intimidating situation into a physical one.
here in the U.S. someone can be screaming at you and if you punch them or react physically then you are committing assault. now the perpetrator did grab the defender in a physical manner that can be perceived as threatening or intimidating. but as a defender without an action that can be recognized as a physical assault , like a punch or a type of hit, the brain will be stuck in limbo trying to decide if a reaction is the right thing to do or not and if it is truly needed. in this case we are assuming that everyone went home safe without a fight. to me that implies no action was the right thing to do (albeit a little sore on the ego).
this situation happens all the time. maybe someone is yelling and poking me in the chest, maybe i see a few shady looking characters walking towards me down the street, or maybe a gangsta looking teen is right up close to me talking trash in my face. at what point do you pull the switch and let the fists fly? as martial practitioners we should have made that decision and defined what that point is both personally and legally during our training and not in the heat of the moment. yes ,every situation is different but we should at least be able to recongnize that X-Y&Z must be present before we can legally make a step up in escalation of the force continuum.

You might have missed my first post, but I reached the same conclusion. Intimidation does not necessarily justify force, but some grappling and solid striking footwork can straddle the line quite well. The problem is if you train a krav school that focuses on deadly vital point strikes all you have is last ditch dirty fighting tactics that aren't applicapable to these gray areas of confrontation. Any time you make it home safe is a victory imo, but complete surrender isn't the only option.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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but complete surrender isn't the only option.
Agree! You may surrender today, you may surrender tomorrow, but are you going to surrender for the rest of your life?

The grappling art has the advantage. Besides "fist meets face", there are other options such as:

1. footwork,
2. dodge,
3. body control,
4. joint lock,
5. choke,
6. take down,
7. ...

If you just stay in 1. footwork and 2. dodge, or even if you get into 3. body control (for example a nice friendly bear hug), the fight is still not escalated yet.
 

BMhadoken

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Owned, I know you're feeling stupid and sissified, and the others have offered great advice on how to control the OODA loop and how you react to the unexpected, but have you considered that your reaction wasn't the actually wrong one for this situation? You're upset because you didn't react the way you thought you'd trained for, but you also didn't do anything potentially stupid to escalate the situation.
when the guy put his hand over my neck, I froze, but few minutes later, after I walked away, my brain found an easy response for that (for instance, take out his hand, push him, threat him and stuff). I could do that easily, but I didn't
Like that.
Not every challenge needs to be answered, and as long as you can control your fear/startle reaction to your satisfaction, that's not a bad way of handling it.
 

drop bear

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I don't think more situational training is the answer to the ops dilemma. The op has trained krav for two years and has done situational training. His situational training failed to prepare him for this incident. He's also done sparring that failed to prepare him for this incident. I question the sparring he did and its effectiveness. The op mentioned he wore gloves, and trained punches, kicks and elbows to weak points. This sounds suspicious to me as far as hard contact soarring is concerned. Elbows with no headgear is not something many schools do regularly, especially if they don't spar regularly. Improper sparring does not build true confidence. Drills will ways leave doubt in your mind. There is no substitute for the confidence and knowledge that comes when you know an opponent has done everything they can to stop you and you have still prevailed. You can't train every situation, relying on situational training without hard sparring will not build adequate confidence. Perhaps both are good training tools but I value hard sparring over other methods like situational training but situational training can help you optimize and apply the knowledge gained from sparring.

I think the op should seriously consider a system that spars regularly such as bjj, judo, or boxing. These systems will build confidence in the face of aggression. Perhaps combined with his rbsd knowledge gained from krav he will be well prepared for a real conflict.

Do a ring fight. Go up against someone who hates him in front of his friends. He will either win and realise he has the tools or loose and realise that it is not the end of the world. Either way he will know he can step up.
 

Shai Hulud

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Hello there, MartialTalk community !
As you can see, I'm new to the forum so I'm sorry if the thread is in the wrong section :shamefullyembarrased:

Well, I want to talk about my little issue, and I'll be glad to get some help from you guys.. it's really important for me.
I trained for like 2 years in Krav Maga, and I quit because of an injury. I must say, K.M. really raised my confidence..
Today I feel a different guy - I can get hit by punches, kicks and keep moving. Plus, now I can actually react in fights!
Well.. that's what I thought.

I never had a real fight before, outside my dojo. Until last month.
I was in a birthday party and I took some food for myself. Some guy thought I took to much (I'm not sure why is it disturbed him), and he came in front of me, put his hand over my "rear neck" and like threat me. He didn't do any other physical move, but I just freeze. I couldn't react..

Probably, all my 2 years of training like worth NOTHING, if I couldn't do anything in real-time.
Why does I feel like that? why every time and I walk in the street or any other place, and someone is looking at me weird, or my body just feel like something is going to happend - I start to sweat and freeze a bit? why??

I really want to "stop freezing", I want to be able to make some moves in real-time, and not only in my dojo.
What am I doing wrong? how can I overcome that fear?
I'll be glad to get some help, thank you.. :(
Training for technique, power or speed is different from training for spirit, and there lies the rub in the sordid world of martial arts and self-defense. It isn't something you can just mentally correct overnight, or even over the span of a few nights or training sessions.

It takes training, and the right kind of training at that. Statically drilling technique and sparring are nice, but I highly recommend set-up scenarios that simulate real-life situations you may find yourself in. In my old Keysi classes and even now in my Combat Sambo classes, we simulate muggers going for my purse, a thug sitting next to me on the bus, rape attacks (those were tough on me), and even 2 or 3-on-1 muggings. The only way you're going to be prepared for something is if you've taken some time aside prior to practice and anticipate it, and in your head you'll probably have drilled it over and over again, playing the scenario and several possible outcomes again and again. Few people have the ability to immediately adapt to whatever circumstances are put right in front of them abruptly. Most people will have to pre-meditate their battle plans, so to speak, or strategies and tactics for later use. It's preparation for your mind, and training your reflexes. This is the holistic approach to training for combat, and the core of all martial art. I wish you luck. :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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How far do you want to back up? When someone's hand has already touched you, should you do something? You should not push other people around. But when someone pushes you around, you should stand on your ground and never back up.

When your opponent's right hand holds behind your neck, if you

- keep your left arm straight,
- move your left arm horizontally to your right,

you can put pressure on his right wrist and force him to remove his hand from your neck. That's 100% self-definition and you will be OK in the court. Again, you will need to have solid MA skill to support yourself and that's MA training, MA training, and still MA training.
 

K-man

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I was in a birthday party and I took some food for myself. Some guy thought I took to much (I'm not sure why is it disturbed him), and he came in front of me, put his hand over my "rear neck" and like threat me. He didn't do any other physical move, but I just freeze. I couldn't react..
Let's go back a step. This is a social function, a birthday party. Now I don't know if Owned knew the guy concerned but either way we might presume the guy was a friend of the person who was celebrating the birthday. Owned was holding a plate of food. Now I misread the OP first time and my earlier comments were predicated on the person holding the neck from behind.

So what is the appropriate response? I would suggest it is to do very little. The issue is that Owned froze. That's understandable as it is an unusual situation. We haven't been told what was said or the tone of the conversation, yet the intimation here on MT is that you would immediately drop your plate tear into the guy and totally disrupt the party.

Surely the best response was precisely what Owned did ... nothing. Sure there may have been ways to de-escalate the situation by saying something like, "yeah, I got a bit carried away with all this great food", but I'm sure we've all been in the situation where the right words didn't immediately spring to mind. I don't know what you call it in America but we call that being 'tongue tied'.

So back to the OP. How do you overcome the situation of freezing in that sort of situation? It was totally unexpected, it was not necessarily done with aggression and it was an invasion of personal space. I would suggest that you could have 5000 ring fights and still not have the answer. I would also suggest that learning to deal with this situation is more to do with self defence and interpersonal skills than actually fighting. For me, role playing is more the answer than fighting.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Since you won't know whether or not your opponent will punch on your face from that position, to "disconnect your opponent's body contact, move out of the way, and remain distance" is the most proper solution IMO. To protect your own safety (this is your personal right) should be your highest priority.
 

Transk53

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Since you won't know whether or not your opponent will punch on your face from that position, to "disconnect your opponent's body contact, move out of the way, and remain distance" is the most proper solution IMO. To protect your own safety (this is your personal right) should be your highest priority.

Decent stamp to the foot works.
 

Mephisto

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Let's go back a step. This is a social function, a birthday party. Now I don't know if Owned knew the guy concerned but either way we might presume the guy was a friend of the person who was celebrating the birthday. Owned was holding a plate of food. Now I misread the OP first time and my earlier comments were predicated on the person holding the neck from behind.

So what is the appropriate response? I would suggest it is to do very little. The issue is that Owned froze. That's understandable as it is an unusual situation. We haven't been told what was said or the tone of the conversation, yet the intimation here on MT is that you would immediately drop your plate tear into the guy and totally disrupt the party.

Surely the best response was precisely what Owned did ... nothing. Sure there may have been ways to de-escalate the situation by saying something like, "yeah, I got a bit carried away with all this great food", but I'm sure we've all been in the situation where the right words didn't immediately spring to mind. I don't know what you call it in America but we call that being 'tongue tied'.

So back to the OP. How do you overcome the situation of freezing in that sort of situation? It was totally unexpected, it was not necessarily done with aggression and it was an invasion of personal space. I would suggest that you could have 5000 ring fights and still not have the answer. I would also suggest that learning to deal with this situation is more to do with self defence and interpersonal skills than actually fighting. For me, role playing is more the answer than fighting.
Really it depends on the food. Are we talking ribs and chicken or hotdogs and burgers? Cause if it was hotdogs and burgers, drop the plate and make a scene. But ribs? You'd better not spill that plate! Best to settle things later on a full belly....and we haven't even gotten into the side dishes yet :)
 

BMhadoken

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Since you won't know whether or not your opponent will punch on your face from that position, to "disconnect your opponent's body contact, move out of the way, and remain distance" is the most proper solution IMO. To protect your own safety (this is your personal right) should be your highest priority.
If your goal is ensuring your safety then distance is the best bet. Swipe his arm off, sure, but then give yourself time to react to what happens next. Also makes it much less "confrontational" when you tell guy not to put hands on you like that.
 

drop bear

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Decent stamp to the foot works.

Not with adults. Especially from there. There is only so much time to do techniques in a fight. So as you choose to foot stamp and he chooses to elbow you in the face. You will come off second best in that exchange.
 

drop bear

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Let's go back a step. This is a social function, a birthday party. Now I don't know if Owned knew the guy concerned but either way we might presume the guy was a friend of the person who was celebrating the birthday. Owned was holding a plate of food. Now I misread the OP first time and my earlier comments were predicated on the person holding the neck from behind.

So what is the appropriate response? I would suggest it is to do very little. The issue is that Owned froze. That's understandable as it is an unusual situation. We haven't been told what was said or the tone of the conversation, yet the intimation here on MT is that you would immediately drop your plate tear into the guy and totally disrupt the party.

Surely the best response was precisely what Owned did ... nothing. Sure there may have been ways to de-escalate the situation by saying something like, "yeah, I got a bit carried away with all this great food", but I'm sure we've all been in the situation where the right words didn't immediately spring to mind. I don't know what you call it in America but we call that being 'tongue tied'.

So back to the OP. How do you overcome the situation of freezing in that sort of situation? It was totally unexpected, it was not necessarily done with aggression and it was an invasion of personal space. I would suggest that you could have 5000 ring fights and still not have the answer. I would also suggest that learning to deal with this situation is more to do with self defence and interpersonal skills than actually fighting. For me, role playing is more the answer than fighting.

But you don't fight people. Don't engage in confrontation and are not tasked with equipping people to do either of the above.

It is exactly what I do. Especially taking people who have never had a fight and freeze up and creating people who will act decisively in one.
 

BMhadoken

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Not with adults. Especially from there. There is only so much time to do techniques in a fight. So as you choose to foot stamp and he chooses to elbow you in the face. You will come off second best in that exchange.
This, and the fact that this wasn't a fight until you started physically attacking the guy.
 

drop bear

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Ok defending the collar tie minus the best one which is just treating the grab like a punch and just blocking or moving.

You could do about half that and be out generally. But if you want to set up for a good position to reengage that is there too.

I don't think a one handed crappy collar tie is the issue here. It was the perceived inability to act.

It is not whether op should have done something or shouldn't. In that scenario it doesn't really matter. It is his emotional state afterwards. Now after a fight that doesn't go anywhere you do get an emotional downer. That is just a thing that happens.

Now how you break that emotional response it the question.

The easy answer is.

Don't be so prideful.

You loose fights or not look cool in one and feel like a dusche bag. So what? People loose fights. It is not the end of the world.

Now getting your mindset there is the hard road.
 

jks9199

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Others have brought this up, but I'll put it plainer. Seems to me you absolutely reacted appropriately to the situation. In a social situation as described, a violent physical response is likely unwarranted, possibly unjustified. Owned want hurt, he was barely threatened. Maybe shifting and removing the hand would be in order, but little more. " He put his hand on my neck and told me I was taking too much, so I broke his arm, punched him in the face, and stomped through his knee." sounds like a great recipe for a lengthy stay in the Gray Bar Hotel, as well as civil penalties. And then there's a bit of an elephant hiding in the corner: did the guy have a valid point, and the authority to make it?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
 
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Mephisto

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Decent stamp to the foot works.
Only if you're in high heels and he's barefoot. This suggestion is very removed from reality. Stepping on the foot and giving him a shove is more plausible. But a foot stomp? This isnt WWE, why just give a nuggie or tittie twister? I hear purple nurples are also effective :)
 

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