Need more advice in cane fight practice

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Alan0354

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I was on line looking through stick sparring and they really only do about 2 or three things. And proficiency seems to be how well you can time them and game the other guy.
I totally agree, in real sparring and more in real fight, you only use very few effective moves. Less is more, practicing them over and over until it's natural.

I found very few stick fighting with two hands, that's one of the problem also. It's very different from single hand stick. I am too old to join a class, also I don't know of anywhere that teaches sticks with two hands. So I pretty much using my experience in TKD/kickboxing I learn back in the days to guide me. I know stick fight with two hands is completely different from Katana sword fight, so that's not my option either.

It's hard to learn timing if I don't have anyone to practice with. I asked my neighbor that is into Kung fu, but he doesn't want to do it. There is very few FMA school, I really don't want to learn any Chinese style ( even I am a Chinese) because I deem them too fancy and have no real life use. So I think my best bet is to learn how to hit as fast as I can and hit as hard as I can.

I believe in less is more, the simpler that better. So far, I only practice 4 strikes, two high and two low. Then thrusting (poking) with the tip of the cane from both sides. That's it. Just like I practice jab and reverse punch, simple front kicks, step kick to the knee and low round house kick to the leg. That's it. I only practice how to hit hard and move smoothly. None of those fancy blocking and fancy moves.

Hell, look at all those fancy moves on blocking and all then you look at the MMA and Boxing, they defend punching by simple head movement and parrying. You try to use those fancy defense, you'll get KO before you can even raise your hands. Why even spend one second learning those fancy stuffs. Hit hard, move away!!!

Makes me laugh when I saw those videos that taught using the hook of the cane to trap the arms, hook the neck and all those fancy moves. Total waste of time to even try those. Maybe good for in the movies.
 
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drop bear

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I totally agree, in real sparring and more in real fight, you only use very few effective moves. Less is more, practicing them over and over until it's natural.

I found very few stick fighting with two hands, that's one of the problem also. It's very different from single hand stick. I am too old to join a class, also I don't know of anywhere that teaches sticks with two hands. So I pretty much using my experience in TKD/kickboxing I learn back in the days to guide me. I know stick fight with two hands is completely different from Katana sword fight, so that's not my option either.

It's hard to learn timing if I don't have anyone to practice with. I asked my neighbor that is into Kung fu, but he doesn't want to do it. There is very few FMA school, I really don't want to learn any Chinese style ( even I am a Chinese) because I deem them too fancy and have no real life use. So I think my best bet is to learn how to hit as fast as I can and hit as hard as I can.

I believe in less is more, the simpler that better. So far, I only practice 4 strikes, two high and two low. Then thrusting (poking) with the tip of the cane from both sides. That's it. Just like I practice jab and reverse punch, simple front kicks, step kick to the knee and low round house kick to the leg. That's it. I only practice how to hit hard and move smoothly. None of those fancy blocking and fancy moves.

Hell, look at all those fancy moves on blocking and all then you look at the MMA and Boxing, they defend punching by simple head movement and parrying. You try to use those fancy defense, you'll get KO before you can even raise your hands. Why even spend one second learning those fancy stuffs. Hit hard, move away!!!

Makes me laugh when I saw those videos that taught using the hook of the cane to trap the arms, hook the neck and all those fancy moves. Total waste of time to even try those. Maybe good for in the movies.

Irish stick fighting?

 

dvcochran

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I just want show I practice with arm close to body as if I am holding something in the armpit. I make sure this is my first set every morning to start. I still not comfortable with casting, I have to keep reminding myself to use the body to drive the swing. Give me more time before I make a video on casting.

Thanks for your post, it really helps. Funny that most of my sticks are too short now because I can swing a longer stick!! Or putting the rubber foot on to add weight at the tip. the only victim is my toe, because of the turning of the feet on the floor, the skin cracks and it's bleeding. I have to tape it up for practice.

Thanks
Have you wrestled in the past? Keeping the elbows tucked in is a very smart chicken wing defense. Not much worse than getting hooked.
BTW, that is a serious sound system you have there.
 
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Alan0354

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Irish stick fighting?

Yes, I had look deep into Irish stick fighting. This is the first time I saw anyone using two hands just a little. My issue is they switch hands back and fore, they use a longer stick and do a lot of "jab" like strike and bounces the stick back by using the other end of the stick to hit the elbow or forearm to stop the forward swing and bounce the stick back.

I actually tried that, it is not convenient to use a cane that is asymmetric, you cannot bounce with a crook end reliably. also, if you switch hand, then the crook end will be the tip. Cane is also too short to switch hands and bounce the other end on the elbow. You can see in the video their sticks are usually like the walking stick(hiking stick) length, not walking cane length.

Thanks anyway.


I was thinking about you said more stick fight only use 2 or 3 moves. I was wondering why only 2 or 3. I counted 4, strike: From left or right to the head, strike left or right to the knees. That's 4 basic strikes. Must be people don't strike the knee or legs. I remember in the school, teacher told us not to strike the legs as it can injure the partner. There must be rules like that as striking the legs can really injure the opponent in sparring or even competitions.

I particularly concentrate on striking the knees as the first move. First, I really don't want to risk killing the guy by striking the head as I use a 20oz+ stick with two hands, not those 6oz escrima sticks with one hand. I have no intention to try to kill someone, I just want to slow him down by injuring his legs. If that doesn't work, then to the head. At least I try.

ALSO just as important. You guys talk about grabbing the cane, it's much harder to grab the cane if I strike low to the leg. At least I strike leg first, the natural response for the guy is to reach low to block, then the next strike is to the top while he tries to reach low for the cane.

I don't know I am right or not, but I do give a lot of thoughts to what I am doing, choosing to swing with two hands, hit knees as the first primary move. Forget blocking the opponent's stick, just concentrating on 4 basic strikes and 2 thrust(poking), and moving in and out. If you have any thoughts, let me know

Thanks
 
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Alan0354

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Have you wrestled in the past? Keeping the elbows tucked in is a very smart chicken wing defense. Not much worse than getting hooked.
BTW, that is a serious sound system you have there.
Thanks

Yes, I notice if I use the body right, I can keep my elbow close to the body to strike. I did remember you guys told me that my elbows are too far out. Now I understand. I never wrestled before, only Judo.

Thanks for noticing the sound system. I am very very into sound. I design my own power amp and preamp. I spend even more time on that than MA. Electronic design is my passion of life, I had a full career as EE and manager of EE. After I retired in 2005, I never stop. I even set up a lab in one of my rooms as a lab with all the test equipment. I always into audiophile, I decided to design power amp as it's the more challenge part of the system. I have friends brought their good power amps that are up to $4000 to $5000 and do blind tests( not knowing which amp is playing and judge the sound) and they all picked my amps are the best by a lot. I even have a Nakamichi PA7( improved version of Threshold S300 designed by the famous Nelson Pass of Pass Lab) and it's not even close.

My amps are all relatively low power, the black one is only 60W@8ohm, but it can drive down to below 2ohms@250W/ch. It is designed to drive hard to drive speakers. The harder the speakers, the more they shine. They are all high current design with the first 15 to 20W in class A.

I just bought the pair of speakers about 2 years ago, it's JM Lab Alto Utopia. I bought it used as the new equivalent ones are over $20K. I am cheap, I buy used ones for 1/3 the price. I never intended to go extravagant on speakers like this, I used to (still have) have a pair of JM Lab Spectral. But as I improved my amps, the amp out class the speakers, I have no choice to dish out the money to get the better pair. Sadly, it turns out because the old Spectral being 4ohm speaker, they are more critical to the amp than the Utopia that are 8ohms. You want to test amps, you need a pair of hard to drive speakers. I heard Martin Logan panel speakers are one of those.

Anyway, don't get me started on this, I can talk forever!!! I am currently design one that the cost of parts alone is $1500 each. Those older ones are only about $1000 each for parts. I do it the professional way, the inside of the amps look more expensive than those good amp on the market. No Micky Mouse, all printed circuit board, professional connectors, beefy wires................

Here are some pictures of my amps:
Amp 2b.jpg
Big and small amp.JPG


My 3 amps.JPG



I believe the older people are, the more they need exercise. MA, stick fight and weight lifting are exercise for the body. THIS.....is my exercise of the brain. I even obtain a US Patent on noise cancellation for electric guitar in 2014. That's another story for a different time. I designed guitar amplifiers also!!!
 
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drop bear

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Yes, I had look deep into Irish stick fighting. This is the first time I saw anyone using two hands just a little. My issue is they switch hands back and fore, they use a longer stick and do a lot of "jab" like strike and bounces the stick back by using the other end of the stick to hit the elbow or forearm to stop the forward swing and bounce the stick back.

I actually tried that, it is not convenient to use a cane that is asymmetric, you cannot bounce with a crook end reliably. also, if you switch hand, then the crook end will be the tip. Cane is also too short to switch hands and bounce the other end on the elbow. You can see in the video their sticks are usually like the walking stick(hiking stick) length, not walking cane length.

Thanks anyway.


I was thinking about you said more stick fight only use 2 or 3 moves. I was wondering why only 2 or 3. I counted 4, strike: From left or right to the head, strike left or right to the knees. That's 4 basic strikes. Must be people don't strike the knee or legs. I remember in the school, teacher told us not to strike the legs as it can injure the partner. There must be rules like that as striking the legs can really injure the opponent in sparring or even competitions.

I particularly concentrate on striking the knees as the first move. First, I really don't want to risk killing the guy by striking the head as I use a 20oz+ stick with two hands, not those 6oz escrima sticks with one hand. I have no intention to try to kill someone, I just want to slow him down by injuring his legs. If that doesn't work, then to the head. At least I try.

ALSO just as important. You guys talk about grabbing the cane, it's much harder to grab the cane if I strike low to the leg. At least I strike leg first, the natural response for the guy is to reach low to block, then the next strike is to the top while he tries to reach low for the cane.

I don't know I am right or not, but I do give a lot of thoughts to what I am doing, choosing to swing with two hands, hit knees as the first primary move. Forget blocking the opponent's stick, just concentrating on 4 basic strikes and 2 thrust(poking), and moving in and out. If you have any thoughts, let me know

Thanks

Shin. That will slow them down.

I thought the whole system was based on an asymmetric stick. They have a knob rather than a hook.


Otherwise la canne?

I mean in sparring it looks pretty much the same. But that should be telling you something as well.

This looks almost ludosports.
 
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Alan0354

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Shin. That will slow them down.

I thought the whole system was based on an asymmetric stick. They have a knob rather than a hook.


Otherwise la canne?

I mean in sparring it looks pretty much the same. But that should be telling you something as well.

This looks almost ludosports.
I saw the first video for sure showing how they bounce the end of the stick on the forearm. I likely watched the last two videos. I went through a lot. Even they use asymmetric stick, it's with a symmetrical knob on one end use how you turn the stick is not important. For crook handle, you bounce in the off angle, it will not bounce predictably. I tried that and it hurts. You have to least a longer length at the back to bounce, cane is too short for that. You need a hiking stick to do that.

It's harder to strike shin because it's at the front. You have to step to the side to strike the shin.
 
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Alan0354

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I had a couple of thoughts. I read the first few pages... then got tied up at work... by the time I got back, there were quite a few pages to catch up on... I skimmed, so if someone beat me to these... sorry ;)

First thought is the legal question. You do not need a cane. Watching these videos, and seeing how you move, you do not need one. You are in fact carrying the cane to be used as a weapon. In the event that you need to defend yourself, if it is caught on camera, it will be apparent that you do not need a cane, the way you are moving and striking with it. I would highly suggest, that you read and understand the law, where you are, about carrying and using weapons. If you travel, you should also know the laws for the places you go to. I am not trying to talk you out of the training, or the cane... just suggesting that there is more to prepare for than just taking out the bad guy. If you get attacked, and severely injure the other guy you could be looking at both criminal and civil trials. I would also bet that these threads here, with the videos of you training will be found and used. Understanding the law is very important, any time you carry any weapon at all.

Second thought... many people have suggested some form of grappling to add in, in case the distance gets closed or the cane gets grabbed. I am not a fan of tying the weapon to my wrist... the cane now becomes a great big handle for the bad guy to use to control me. What I would suggest, is to find a school that can teach you Hanbo. There are lots of grappling moves with the Hanbo, that will translate directly to your cane. Many are designed for the specific situation, where the bad guy grabs your stick or closes distance. The other point about Hanbo training, is that many of the techniques translate into many different weapons of opportunity: canes, sticks, clubs, rules, wrenches, pens, rolled up magazines, and cloth. Now you would not need to always have your cane, but just always know where the Hanbo'ish weapons are that are around you. This training will also give you a way to choke out, put down the bad guy, with out injury... which will help with the legal aspect.

Just some thoughts.
I forgot to mention, I want people to know I don't need the cane to walk. I never let the cane touch the ground and I walk with a bounce!!! I want to show people I don't use the cane to walk. It is kind of "Don't tread on me". I am not into fighting, if I can avoid a fight, if I can scare people so they don't attack me, it's a win. There's other easier target to pick on.
 

drop bear

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I saw the first video for sure showing how they bounce the end of the stick on the forearm. I likely watched the last two videos. I went through a lot. Even they use asymmetric stick, it's with a symmetrical knob on one end use how you turn the stick is not important. For crook handle, you bounce in the off angle, it will not bounce predictably. I tried that and it hurts. You have to least a longer length at the back to bounce, cane is too short for that. You need a hiking stick to do that.

It's harder to strike shin because it's at the front. You have to step to the side to strike the shin.

Crook towards you?
 
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Alan0354

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Crook towards you?
First and foremost, the crook cane is too short. In order to bounce on the forearm or elbow, you have to leave a long section of the cane at the back. Then the cane will be way too short at the front for hitting. eg. You can see they leave about 12" behind, for a 32" cane, you only have 20" at the front. That's way to short for hitting as shown here, this is a 32" cane, see how short the front is?
Irish 1.jpg


As for the crook end turning, It's hard to predict when you switch back and fore. When you switch hands, the cane rotate a little every time. I used to use the hook to "punch" the heavy bag, but I found it can rotate a little and it will turn upon contact and totally lost power. I don't do that anymore.

Also Irish stick fight keep switching hands, if I switch hand, the crook will be the tip and it create a different set of problems. Ideally, I would hit with the tip of the hook away from the target and use the back of the handle. But as I said, the hook rotate as to swing around and it's hard to control that.

Third but just as important, the hook end is a whole lot heavier, it's too heavy for one hand as the momentum is very high with tip heavy. I barely can swing the cane with both hands using the hook end as the tip, never mind using one hand.
Irish 2.jpg


I did give Irish style a good try, it's not even close to be comfortable.

Thanks
 
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dvcochran

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Thanks

Yes, I notice if I use the body right, I can keep my elbow close to the body to strike. I did remember you guys told me that my elbows are too far out. Now I understand. I never wrestled before, only Judo.

Thanks for noticing the sound system. I am very very into sound. I design my own power amp and preamp. I spend even more time on that than MA. Electronic design is my passion of life, I had a full career as EE and manager of EE. After I retired in 2005, I never stop. I even set up a lab in one of my rooms as a lab with all the test equipment. I always into audiophile, I decided to design power amp as it's the more challenge part of the system. I have friends brought their good power amps that are up to $4000 to $5000 and do blind tests( not knowing which amp is playing and judge the sound) and they all picked my amps are the best by a lot. I even have a Nakamichi PA7( improved version of Threshold S300 designed by the famous Nelson Pass of Pass Lab) and it's not even close.

My amps are all relatively low power, the black one is only 60W@8ohm, but it can drive down to below 2ohms@250W/ch. It is designed to drive hard to drive speakers. The harder the speakers, the more they shine. They are all high current design with the first 15 to 20W in class A.

I just bought the pair of speakers about 2 years ago, it's JM Lab Alto Utopia. I bought it used as the new equivalent ones are over $20K. I am cheap, I buy used ones for 1/3 the price. I never intended to go extravagant on speakers like this, I used to (still have) have a pair of JM Lab Spectral. But as I improved my amps, the amp out class the speakers, I have no choice to dish out the money to get the better pair. Sadly, it turns out because the old Spectral being 4ohm speaker, they are more critical to the amp than the Utopia that are 8ohms. You want to test amps, you need a pair of hard to drive speakers. I heard Martin Logan panel speakers are one of those.

Anyway, don't get me started on this, I can talk forever!!! I am currently design one that the cost of parts alone is $1500 each. Those older ones are only about $1000 each for parts. I do it the professional way, the inside of the amps look more expensive than those good amp on the market. No Micky Mouse, all printed circuit board, professional connectors, beefy wires................

Here are some pictures of my amps:
View attachment 27915View attachment 27916

View attachment 27918


I believe the older people are, the more they need exercise. MA, stick fight and weight lifting are exercise for the body. THIS.....is my exercise of the brain. I even obtain a US Patent on noise cancellation for electric guitar in 2014. That's another story for a different time. I designed guitar amplifiers also!!!
Very cool.
We again are somewhat similar. I have Master degrees in Electrical Engineering and Engineering Management. I took the control path instead of power however. I have a business that does control, automation, and integration, primarily in the industrial and municipal segments.
 
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Alan0354

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Very cool.
We again are somewhat similar. I have Master degrees in Electrical Engineering and Engineering Management. I took the control path instead of power however. I have a business that does control, automation, and integration, primarily in the industrial and municipal segments.
Electronics is my passion and hobby. I never have formal education on EE, my degree is in Chemistry. But I never even try to get a job in the field. I studied all on my own throughout the years and I really never stop studying until just a few years ago(way after I retired). I studied things to post grad level including Electromagnetics, advance calculus all on my own.

I started out doing control and programming in the late 70s designing control units with 8085, 8086 and later dedicated processor like HC11 etc. I switched to analog and IC design in the 80s because I realize the hardware and firming keep changing and I would have to keep learning over and over. So I migrated to analog design and even moved into analog IC design. I was intrigued by high speed circuitry, so I got more and more involved in RF. I change field by changing jobs and learn different things. Like working for LeCroy(digital scopes) to Exar(IC design) to Seimens( Ultrasound medical scanner) to Mass Spectrometer before I became more settled down. Even in 2000, I ventured out to Telecom designing high speed SONET communication and then to Military contracting.

I never got tired of electronics and RF, going to work was mostly a fun day for me. I retired early because I have other interest(real estate). But I never stopped. actually I never got into audio until I retired. First designing guitar amps and guitar electronics I even got a patent in 2014 on noise cancellation for guitar:
US8704074B1 - Pickup system for stringed musical instruments comprises of non-humbucking pickups with noise cancelling by current injection - Google Patents

I never even try to get into business as there's no money in the field and is hard work to go into business. You should know, it sounds glamorous, but it's slave labor!!! I just enjoy inventing stuffs. I have two other patent, this one solely mine:
US7561438B1 - Electronic device incorporating a multilayered capacitor formed on a printed circuit board - Google Patents

This one is with 5 other people:
US Patent for Mass spectrometer detector and system and method using the same Patent (Patent # 11,183,377 issued November 23, 2021) - Justia Patents Search

I also published two papers in America Institution of Physics, Review of Scientific Instruments:
Reduced electron multiplier dead time in ion counting mass spectrometry

Cookie Absent

I have some idea on hifi power amps, I am still thinking about whether to pursue something.....Not for business.........There's no money in extreme high end audio market.

My life is driven by hobby and passion, I don't believe in working in a job I don't love.
 
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Alan0354

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Crook towards you?
Hi

I actually played with the bouncing the cane on the forearm of Irish stick fighting. You mentioned a few times, I owe it to myself to give it one more try with open mind. Only thing I am interested is the jabbing like with the cane bouncing on the forearm to pull the cane back. The others are similar enough to Filipino escrima. Switching hands is definitely impossible, BUT just do it with the right hand is definitely possible. It should be faster than striking with two hands like what I am doing. It is really a jab like boxing. Don't expect to hit hard, just fast. You throw the stick literally like jabbing and let the other end of the cane stop by the forearm and bounce the cane back and ready for the second strike. I am going to see whether I can incorporate into my training. We'll see.

The reason you cannot switch hands is because when you bounce with the right hand, the crook end has to face forward. BUT when you switch hand, you have to turn the crook around so crook end face back to you. You cannot strike with the crook end towards the opponent because unless it is perfectly perpendicular, the cane will rotate upon hitting the opponent and you lose most of the power. Worst is to catch something and pull the cane off your hand. Look at the two pictures in post #150 where the crook end pointing at in each hand and you will understand what I mean that I have rotate the cane 180deg every time I switch hand.

I have to practice for a while to determine whether it's worth incorporating into my training. There are still question how reliable I can bounce the end on my forearm. If I miss, the cane will keep swinging off my hand. One thing good is I notice I don't have to have 12" at the back, I have to see after I practice for a while. It will be a challenge to make sure the cane bounce on the forearm. I notice I miss the forearm a lot.

Thanks
 

dvcochran

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Electronics is my passion and hobby. I never have formal education on EE, my degree is in Chemistry. But I never even try to get a job in the field. I studied all on my own throughout the years and I really never stop studying until just a few years ago(way after I retired). I studied things to post grad level including Electromagnetics, advance calculus all on my own.

I started out doing control and programming in the late 70s designing control units with 8085, 8086 and later dedicated processor like HC11 etc. I switched to analog and IC design in the 80s because I realize the hardware and firming keep changing and I would have to keep learning over and over. So I migrated to analog design and even moved into analog IC design. I was intrigued by high speed circuitry, so I got more and more involved in RF. I change field by changing jobs and learn different things. Like working for LeCroy(digital scopes) to Exar(IC design) to Seimens( Ultrasound medical scanner) to Mass Spectrometer before I became more settled down. Even in 2000, I ventured out to Telecom designing high speed SONET communication and then to Military contracting.

I never got tired of electronics and RF, going to work was mostly a fun day for me. I retired early because I have other interest(real estate). But I never stopped. actually I never got into audio until I retired. First designing guitar amps and guitar electronics I even got a patent in 2014 on noise cancellation for guitar:
US8704074B1 - Pickup system for stringed musical instruments comprises of non-humbucking pickups with noise cancelling by current injection - Google Patents

I never even try to get into business as there's no money in the field and is hard work to go into business. You should know, it sounds glamorous, but it's slave labor!!! I just enjoy inventing stuffs. I have two other patent, this one solely mine:
US7561438B1 - Electronic device incorporating a multilayered capacitor formed on a printed circuit board - Google Patents

This one is with 5 other people:
US Patent for Mass spectrometer detector and system and method using the same Patent (Patent # 11,183,377 issued November 23, 2021) - Justia Patents Search

I also published two papers in America Institution of Physics, Review of Scientific Instruments:
Reduced electron multiplier dead time in ion counting mass spectrometry

Cookie Absent

I have some idea on hifi power amps, I am still thinking about whether to pursue something.....Not for business.........There's no money in extreme high end audio market.

My life is driven by hobby and passion, I don't believe in working in a job I don't love.
I Love this post! And the passion that is clearly present in your work. 8086 and 8088 is as far back as I can go.

From what you describe, you are at more of the circuit level than I usually am.
In the '80's there were a number of Siemen's A/C output boards that commonly failed and were able to get the schematic from Siemen's. It was usually a simple board relay that failed due to current overload. As they failed, we would replace them with a higher current relay and the problem would not reoccur.

In a typical build, we are at the component level. Of course, this comes after the design phase which is where I am heavily involved. The majority of our projects start at the capital budget phase, which allows me to have a lot of control and autonomy in the project.

In years past, I have had 3 patents for intellectual property/utility which I never paid the renewal fees on and have passed the 20-year expiration. Crowing rights that I seldom bring up.

I see a Lot of RF and some mass spectrometry in measurement. Particularly in materials with varying density.
Analog is still living large in the industrial world, especially on older systems. Most scalar capable devices have gone digital for some time (VFD's . motion, etc...). I always consider it somewhat odd how few sound-specific devices I have ever worked with. I work with the effects of sound a good bit (sonar) however.
 

wab25

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I forgot to mention, I want people to know I don't need the cane to walk. I never let the cane touch the ground and I walk with a bounce!!! I want to show people I don't use the cane to walk. It is kind of "Don't tread on me". I am not into fighting, if I can avoid a fight, if I can scare people so they don't attack me, it's a win. There's other easier target to pick on.
You miss understood what I was saying. I was not saying don't carry your cane or don't train.... I was saying learn the local law, concerning carrying weapons. Laws around weapons are different, depending on where you are and they are particular. They have also sent people to jail, who did not understand the particulars of the law.
 

lklawson

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Yes, I had look deep into Irish stick fighting. This is the first time I saw anyone using two hands just a little.
It shows up some, historically speaking. Longhurst certainly describes a two-handed grip in his 1919 shillelagh text. It shows two-handed swings and bayonet-style jabs. While bayonet-style thrusts show up elsewhere from time-to-time but it is mostly described as one-handed use in period manuals, descriptions, and artwork, as well as in "living traditions."


My issue is they switch hands back and fore, they use a longer stick and do a lot of "jab" like strike and bounces the stick back by using the other end of the stick to hit the elbow or forearm to stop the forward swing and bounce the stick back.
Perfectly valid technique.


I actually tried that, it is not convenient to use a cane that is asymmetric, you cannot bounce with a crook end reliably.
No offense intended but, if you're having problems with that technique, then you're misunderstanding something or misapplying something when you try it.


also, if you switch hand, then the crook end will be the tip.
So? It's pretty common to use the tip-end to strike and hold the crook-end, and it's equally common to hold the tip-end and strike/hook with the crook end. Examples include Wittman's Footpad and the Cane shillelagh instructional from 1905 and Cunningham's 1912 crooked-cane manual.


Cane is also too short to switch hands and bounce the other end on the elbow.
Not really.


You can see in the video their sticks are usually like the walking stick(hiking stick) length, not walking cane length.
In this clip, they're using a stick based on the "shillalah" 1890 Allanson-Winn manual, which is described as 4 feet. Basically jo length. Other traditions use shorter, "cane length" walking-sticks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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lklawson

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Shin. That will slow them down.

I thought the whole system was based on an asymmetric stick. They have a knob rather than a hook.
Historically speaking, frequently but not always. Usually a "shillelagh" ("bata") when represented as a walking stick was a knob-ended cane-length stick of oak, ash, hazel, or blackthorn. The knob was either the crook from a branch or the root ball from a sapling. However, some traditions refer to a symmetric stick with no knob.


Doyle's system is considered markedly different from the typical one-haned "shillelagh" systems it is said to be contemporary with. Even when those one-handed systems use two hands, it looked different from Doyle's "Uisce Beatha Bata Rince" (ims "Whisky Stick Dance").


Otherwise la canne?
Vigny's la Canne system is markedly different from both Doyle's system and from every historic "shillelagh" system I'm aware of, both in how the stick is held and the typical guard positions, and moving on from there to how strikes are performed. They're different.


I mean in sparring it looks pretty much the same. But that should be telling you something as well.

This looks almost ludosports.
Canne de Combat is, again, different from any of the above.
 

lklawson

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First and foremost, the crook cane is too short. In order to bounce on the forearm or elbow, you have to leave a long section of the cane at the back. Then the cane will be way too short at the front for hitting. eg. You can see they leave about 12" behind, for a 32" cane, you only have 20" at the front. That's way to short for hitting as shown here, this is a 32" cane, see how short the front is?
Both my training and my experience are different. This grip does not make the stick "too short for hitting" any more than an escrima stick or a police truncheon is "too short for hitting." No, you are not using the full length for hitting. But it's not "too short." This uses the weapon different from what you expect.


View attachment 27920

As for the crook end turning, It's hard to predict when you switch back and fore. When you switch hands, the cane rotate a little every time. I used to use the hook to "punch" the heavy bag, but I found it can rotate a little and it will turn upon contact and totally lost power. I don't do that anymore.
That's because, frankly, you shouldn't do any of those things with a "1/3 Irish Grip" and a crooked cane. If you want to hold the cane at the crook end, I recommend something more like the Cunningham method.


Also Irish stick fight keep switching hands,
Some styles do but most have a preference for one-handed use.


if I switch hand, the crook will be the tip and it create a different set of problems. Ideally, I would hit with the tip of the hook away from the target and use the back of the handle. But as I said, the hook rotate as to swing around and it's hard to control that.
Honestly, this is because you are trying to be self-taught. You don't know what the advantages and disadvantages are, nor how to perform the technique, never-mind how to take full advantage of it.

I'm not trying to be cruel or arrogant here, but, frankly you just don't know what you're talking about. I have experience in these styles and can tell that you are starting with inaccurate assumptions, fumbling about, and getting stuff getting stuff flat wrong.


Third but just as important, the hook end is a whole lot heavier, it's too heavy for one hand as the momentum is very high with tip heavy.
Absolutely 100% wrong. I do it all the time and I know lots of others people who do as well. I know that you might be thinking, "well the crook adds more weight so..." but still no. I often use a knobbed cane-length stick where the knob is drilled and "loaded" with lead (also a historically accurate practice).

I barely can swing the cane with both hands using the hook end as the tip, never mind using one hand.
View attachment 27921
You are doing it wrong. Sorry, but there is simply no other way around it.


I did give Irish style a good try,
No, you didn't. I'm sure you thought you did and I'm sure you think you understand the mechanics, technique, and strategies, but it's pretty clear that you missed several fundamental points.

I forget where you're at but maybe I can put you in touch with someone who could teach you. Unless, of course, you're still wedded to the idea of being self-taught.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Hi

I actually played with the bouncing the cane on the forearm of Irish stick fighting. You mentioned a few times, I owe it to myself to give it one more try with open mind. Only thing I am interested is the jabbing like with the cane bouncing on the forearm to pull the cane back. The others are similar enough to Filipino escrima. Switching hands is definitely impossible, BUT just do it with the right hand is definitely possible. It should be faster than striking with two hands like what I am doing. It is really a jab like boxing. Don't expect to hit hard, just fast. You throw the stick literally like jabbing and let the other end of the cane stop by the forearm and bounce the cane back and ready for the second strike. I am going to see whether I can incorporate into my training. We'll see.

The reason you cannot switch hands is because when you bounce with the right hand, the crook end has to face forward. BUT when you switch hand, you have to turn the crook around so crook end face back to you. You cannot strike with the crook end towards the opponent because unless it is perfectly perpendicular, the cane will rotate upon hitting the opponent and you lose most of the power. Worst is to catch something and pull the cane off your hand. Look at the two pictures in post #150 where the crook end pointing at in each hand and you will understand what I mean that I have rotate the cane 180deg every time I switch hand.

I have to practice for a while to determine whether it's worth incorporating into my training. There are still question how reliable I can bounce the end on my forearm. If I miss, the cane will keep swinging off my hand. One thing good is I notice I don't have to have 12" at the back, I have to see after I practice for a while. It will be a challenge to make sure the cane bounce on the forearm. I notice I miss the forearm a lot.

Thanks
You don't "bounce" it. That's not what it's for or how it's used.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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