Need more advice in cane fight practice

lklawson

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Footwork isn't simple. Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork" Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it. And the truth is, he'll always be working on it. Just like everyone else.

If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork.

Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.
"Never give a sword to a man who cant dance"
-Old Martial Proverb

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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I think you are going to get semanticsed to death with the fancy idea. And Mabye high percentage is what you are looking for.

Which for self defense kind of is the way to go.

The complexity is being able to create an environment where your simple technique works. And that is what separates good fighters from poor ones.

And you probably need to develop that through sparring.

And the biggest problem with learning stick is there isn't as many super cagey stick guys out there.

They're doing Vigny/Lang style la Canne, ala Bartitsu lineage.
 

lklawson

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Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand.
Except for the multiple times that both fighter went double-hand on their stick, both for strike and for block. You need to actually watch the video to comment on it.


BTW, I actually prefer watching this video than those fancy ones. At least they are doing it!!!
There was subtlety in some of those techniques that you apparently didn't see. They juke, they feint, they draw attacks, they change angles.
 

drop bear

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They're doing Vigny/Lang style la Canne, ala Bartitsu lineage.

The one thing I noticed with that is he is actually blocking the return shots. Which is exceedingly hard at speed.

But yeah. La canne should be a viable option.
 

lklawson

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The one thing I noticed with that is he is actually blocking the return shots. Which is exceedingly hard at speed.

But yeah. La canne should be a viable option.
One of the most recognizable features of the la Canne Vigny style is the hand-back hanging guard with an emphasis on quick return to guard after a strike. That makes it much easier to get the block.
 

drop bear

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Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand. Also, I am getting too old to go taking all the abuse!!! That's the reason I concentrate on a few simple strike. It is not exactly a walk in the park for me. My shoulder hurts, my elbow hurts, my back.......... It's easy if I am young, at this age, I have to pick my battle. Not trying to get sympathy, it's like I have to do 60 pushups, 10lbs dumbbell lateral raise just to warm up the shoulder and elbow before I can practice. Also have to warm up the back. It's very time consuming everyday. If I don't do that, I would injure myself. There's nothing good getting old. I practice in the morning and at night, warm up twice, that's over 100 pushups and dumbbells a day just to warmup!!! And that's not counted as weight training for me. That's another long exercise.

Yes, I kept talking about Casting and body motion, I really don't mean just standing there and do it. That would be too easy. I can learn and do it right in one day. The DIFFICULT part is how to combine with the footwork and still do Casting with body motion to add the force. It is NOT easy. I expect to take months to really get good at it.

BTW, I actually prefer watching this video than those fancy ones. At least they are doing it!!!

The issue you are going to have is that you may not find a school that perfectly matches your intent.

And Mabye you will have to make do. Or Mabye people who weild a stick with one hand are better and that's why you see it done more often. I don't know I don't stick fight.

Otherwise even without sparring hard or whatever. Being able to pick the brains of those who do is very helpful.
 

Blindside

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Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand. Also, I am getting too old to go taking all the abuse!!!
Private lessons. Tell the instructor what you are looking for and they can tailor lessons as necessary. Don't like the lessons, don't go back.
 

JowGaWolf

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The issue you are going to have is that you may not find a school that perfectly matches your intent.

And Mabye you will have to make do. Or Mabye people who weild a stick with one hand are better and that's why you see it done more often. I don't know I don't stick fight.

Otherwise even without sparring hard or whatever. Being able to pick the brains of those who do is very helpful.
Most people who spar do stick vs stick because both are learning how to fight with a stick. You will rarely see video of empty hand vs stick.

My son and I would start sparring from the grappling position the few times we trained it. But most of the time it was staff vs staff.
 

lklawson

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Most people who spar do stick vs stick because both are learning how to fight with a stick. You will rarely see video of empty hand vs stick.

My son and I would start sparring from the grappling position the few times we trained it. But most of the time it was staff vs staff.
When teaching / training weapons, I always make it a point to include non-matched weapon. Last night I was teaching Tomahawk. Our last drills were Tomahawk vs. Hunting Saber.

When I teach stick, particularly the Vigny/Bartitsu, I will deliberately match stick against knife, slung-shot, and unarmed. Besides the obvious, there is a historic reason for this; the Bartitsuka was typically a well off Edwardian gentleman who was concerned about low-class ruffians assaulting and robbing him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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Alan0354

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The one thing I noticed with that is he is actually blocking the return shots. Which is exceedingly hard at speed.

But yeah. La canne should be a viable option.
It is very sophisticated, it has a name, called Instinct Reflex. It is more than we simpletents can comprehend.

Can you imagine, even the instinct reflex is too slow, how much slower if you have to use a fancy move? I learn Wing Chung before, all the fancy rotating the forearm and elbow to block. You seen them EVER use it in fights? I only see them being butt kicked. There's a lot of videos of Wing Chung fighting MMA, you EVER see them using ANY wing chung? EVER?!!! It was so funny when one famous WC guy got his butt kicked so bad, he started using boxing hands and try to save whatever face remained.

When a punch comes in, the most natural reflex is move your head and parry. Work on that and make it faster. DO NOT try to be fancy and learn those STUPID fancy moves.
 
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Blindside

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They sure don't have fancy moves like switching hands, moving hands up and down the stick, turn around and do fancy pretty moves. Their footwork is very good, the strikes are simple. He even commented he parry the stick with his hand, NOT any fancy moves. That's how real fights are. Forget baiting, just strike and move.

That video is what I am watching over and over and learn.

There is a difference, that is a shorter stick done under a ruleset that is essentially as if the stick was a machete, every hit matters, even relatively minor ones. So you aren't seeing a lot of grapples, do it under stick rules and you will see a lot more grappling. Once grappling happens you are at close quarters and you will often be going two on one with the stick and thus "moving hands up and down the stick." If you aren't training your close range games you have a giant glaring hole in your self-defense practice.
 
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Alan0354

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There is a difference, that is a shorter stick done under a ruleset that is essentially as if the stick was a machete, every hit matters, even relatively minor ones. So you aren't seeing a lot of grapples, do it under stick rules and you will see a lot more grappling. Once grappling happens you are at close quarters and you will often be going two on one with the stick and thus "moving hands up and down the stick." If you aren't training your close range games you have a giant glaring hole in your self-defense practice.
Hi Lamont

Glad to see you on this thread. I hope you can join in more.

Do you have any video link on close range stick fight you can give me so I can learn?

I have been practicing almost everyday. I try to make another video soon and I hope you can give me guidance.

Thanks

alan
 

drop bear

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It is very sophisticated, it has a name, called Instinct Reflex. It is more than we simpletents can comprehend.

Can you imagine, even the instinct reflex is too slow, how much slower if you have to use a fancy move? I learn Wing Chung before, all the fancy rotating the forearm and elbow to block. You seen them EVER use it in fights? I only see them being butt kicked. There's a lot of videos of Wing Chung fighting MMA, you EVER see them using ANY wing chung? EVER?!!! It was so funny when one famous WC guy got his butt kicked so bad, he started using boxing hands and try to save whatever face remained.

When a punch comes in, the most natural reflex is move your head and parry. Work on that and make it faster. DO NOT try to be fancy and learn those STUPID fancy moves.

Having good reactions is a out more than just being quick.
 

drop bear

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Hi Lamont

Glad to see you on this thread. I hope you can join in more.

Do you have any video link on close range stick fight you can give me so I can learn?

I have been practicing almost everyday. I try to make another video soon and I hope you can give me guidance.

Thanks

alan

A lot of the dog brothers stuff results in a grappling match.

 
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Alan0354

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A lot of the dog brothers stuff results in a grappling match.

That's very good video. That's the kind I like to see. Being aggressive do payoff. I talk about cane here, I never give up bare knuckles at all. Still practicing. Just not a subject here. Wish I am younger, I would go learn BJJ. That's really what I need.
 

Blindside

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Hi Lamont

Glad to see you on this thread. I hope you can join in more.

Do you have any video link on close range stick fight you can give me so I can learn?

I have been practicing almost everyday. I try to make another video soon and I hope you can give me guidance.

Thanks

alan

So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker. It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.

This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)

This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.
 
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Alan0354

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So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker. It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.

This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)

This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.
Thank you so much, these are the kind of videos I really want to see. Real full contact sparring.

After I watched the 1st and 3rd video, I wish I can remember more about Judo that I took long time ago. That would really come in handy. Might not be as good as BJJ, but we did do a lot of tuck and pull and stuff like that.

I like your footwork also.

One think I notice more and more, also watching your videos. There's NO really good way to block the strikes reliably. You both landed on each other. It's NOT like people want to make others to believe you can have defensive blocking that are very effective and you can block the incoming strikes reliably. I've seen you using more footwork to move away. Also swinging the stick when you retreat to

a) Block some strikes.

b) More importantly, distract the attacker as he has to watch out your stick and cause him to be more caution when charging you.

The second part is even more important, you disrupt the flow of the opponent. We learn that in my TKD class. My teacher was very progressive at the time. We did not train in tradition TKD with all the stupid blocking. We did practice a lot of jabbing or front kicks as we retreat. He called those defensive jab or defense kick. They are NOT exactly trying to land, more disruptive than anything.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I really think footwork is so important, I have to learn defensive striking as described, and I really have to find some ways to bring back my Judo experience( that is going to be hard!!!).

Thanks so much for your time. You experience is very valuable as THIS is more real, not talking. Please check on this thread more often, I am practicing very hard and I am going to record a new video soon even if I am not quite ready. I want your opinion. I am working on more body, shoulder, legs to add strength to my strikes. I am also incorporate more thrusting with both or one hand.

After watching the video from you and the one from DROP BEAR today, I am going to try in put in some step kicks to the knee and front kicks to the body to mix in high and low attack.

Also, watching the first video, I am glad I change to two hand strike and use a 20oz cane!!! Just hope when I land a strike, the guy will not be keep charging full speed as if I never landed!!!

Thanks




To DROP BEAR:

I have been practicing one hand thrusting with the right hand and use my left hand to either push to the face or jab with fist!!! I learn that from your video. It's more blocking his sight and disrupt his flow than to hit him wiht the left hand. Thank you.


I LEARN A LOT TODAY!!!
 
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dvcochran

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So the first level of sparring is being able to hit an incoming attacker. It doesn't have to be exactly like this, we use a knife versus stick so that both guys are getting training, you could do the same thing with a padded up unarmed guy.

This is mostly a distance match, but you can see how it closes up to standing grappling (and we were avoiding the ground because of my giant knee brace.)

This is a good example of an extended standing grappling match with weapons and how you spend a lot of time trying to break free a weapon or to control the other person's.
I really like video #2. And I miss this kind of sparring.

The one thing of note I will mention is the 'weapon control' comment. My Tuhon (Bill McGrath) was more of a realist about this. While it is the lesser of two evils, grabbing a sharp blade was taught to me as a last resort movement. There was more emphasis on getting inside or outside the member and taking control of the wrist.
If not done with care, padding up can very much give a person a false sense of security that can transfer.

Great post.
 

JowGaWolf

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I really like video #2. And I miss this kind of sparring.

The one thing of note I will mention is the 'weapon control' comment. My Tuhon (Bill McGrath) was more of a realist about this. While it is the lesser of two evils, grabbing a sharp blade was taught to me as a last resort movement. There was more emphasis on getting inside or outside the member and taking control of the wrist.
If not done with care, padding up can very much give a person a false sense of security that can transfer.

Great post.
This is why any blade training I do, I think of that dull training weapon as if it's real. I don't want to get into habit of grabbing things I shouldn't. If I trained escrima then I would have to decide if the stick is a stick or if it's a training sword. The movements for both are the same and my body would become confused if I trying to see the stick as both. My brain just doesn't have the ability for that.
 
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