Nature Points the Way

[Sukerkin]

Some fascinating developments in this article. It seems to me that we should hear much more of such things in the general news - it'd make a nice change from the terrible dirge of violence, catastrophy and death we are fed {which it is slowly coming to light does us psychological harm ... who'd've thought that? :sarcasm:}:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15480620

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's good that we copy these things, but remember that the genius of nature is really stupidity. Nature tries everything until something works. It's pure dumb luck and trial-and-error until something works correctly or improves on something that came before in a way which increases the chances of success at reproduction.

It's like the difference between Edison and Tesla. Both were smart, both were inventors. Edison did things by trial and error, slowly and laboriously. Tesla had brilliant insights and leaps in logic that vaulted him ahead.

For the former method, we now have monstrous computers that can run through all possible permutations through brute force to come up with answers. But we also need brilliant human minds to see beyond incremental changes and occasional random mutations that are somehow superior.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

It's kinda funny to read the phrase "going viral" in an article about biomimicry. Just thought I'd mention. :rofl:

 

[Nomad]

It's good that we copy these things, but remember that the genius of nature is really stupidity. Nature tries everything until something works. It's pure dumb luck and trial-and-error until something works correctly or improves on something that came before in a way which increases the chances of success at reproduction.

While the trial and error methodology is true, the tremendous amount of biodiversity combined with the massive timescales involved mean that nature has come up with some incredibly elegant and efficient solutions to a lot of problems. While many of these problems may be solvable by a variety of different methods, the idea of looking to see how nature has already solved a similar problem can certainly save a lot of time and often provides more elegant solutions than we're likely to think of by intuitive leaps.

I think that finding the right biological system to apply to the problem at hand takes significant insight and often a powerful leap in logic as well (for instance, the article mentions copying spider's use of UV-visible materials to reduce the problem of birds flying into large panes of glass... definitely not an obvious application, IMO, but a fairly brilliant one).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

While the trial and error methodology is true, the tremendous amount of biodiversity combined with the massive timescales involved mean that nature has come up with some incredibly elegant and efficient solutions to a lot of problems.

Yes.

While many of these problems may be solvable by a variety of different methods, the idea of looking to see how nature has already solved a similar problem can certainly save a lot of time and often provides more elegant solutions than we're likely to think of by intuitive leaps.

No.

But it's not an either/or system. We can do both. Best result wins.

I think that finding the right biological system to apply to the problem at hand takes significant insight and often a powerful leap in logic as well (for instance, the article mentions copying spider's use of UV-visible materials to reduce the problem of birds flying into large panes of glass... definitely not an obvious application, IMO, but a fairly brilliant one).

Agreed. Data-mining is powerful stuff. But you can't stop looking forward and you can't depend on nature to have always a) already found a solution or b) have found the best solution. Nature's solution to big meteorites hitting the planet? Mass extinction. Really not on my list of fun things to do, you know?

 

[Xue Sheng]

For the former method, we now have monstrous computers that can run through all possible permutations through brute force to come up with answers. But we also need brilliant human minds to see beyond incremental changes and occasional random mutations that are somehow superior.

The use of computers in some studies of nature, no matterhow powerful the computer, can take years. And then there may not be a definiteanswer, there may be multiples since there are multiple variables involved. Andas to the brilliant human minds....who do you think writes the programs thatrun on the monstrous computers

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Agreed. Data-mining is powerful stuff. But you can't stop looking forward and you can't depend on nature to have always a) already found a solution or b) have found the best solution.

"But it's not an either/or system. We can do both. Best result wins."

 

[oftheherd1]

....

Agreed. Data-mining is powerful stuff. But you can't stop looking forward and you can't depend on nature to have always a) already found a solution or b) have found the best solution. Nature's solution to big meteorites hitting the planet? Mass extinction. Really not on my list of fun things to do, you know?

Somehow I don't see that as a solution so much as an effect. If "nature" developed planets that could temporarily change their orbits to avoid meteors, or have a parent sun that shot out focused beams of photons to destroy the threatening meteors, that would be a "nature's" solution. But your saying nature may not always have the best solution the soonest is understood.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Somehow I don't see that as a solution so much as an effect. If "nature" developed planets that could temporarily change their orbits to avoid meteors, or have a parent sun that shot out focused beams of photons to destroy the threatening meteors, that would be a "nature's" solution. But your saying nature may not always have the best solution the soonest is understood.

A better example would be this; eventually, nature will breed humans that are immune to AIDS; or humans will die out from it. Unless humans come up with solutions on their own or the disease quits spreading for other reasons. Nature finds solutions in evolution; but do you want to wait for them to appear spontaneously?

 

[Xue Sheng]

A better example would be this; eventually, nature will breed humans that are immune to AIDS; or humans will die out from it. Unless humans come up with solutions on their own or the disease quits spreading for other reasons. Nature finds solutions in evolution; but do you want to wait for them to appear spontaneously?

Most likely if left unchecked it would be an ammunity. I believe big African cats got hit with thier version of AIDS and they did eventually build up an immunity. But possibly not..... in this case I am willing to have science to find a cure... but that does not rule out them studying nature to find one

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Most likely if left unchecked it would be an ammunity. I believe big African cats got hit with thier version of AIDS and they did eventually build up an immunity. But possibly not..... in this case I am willing to have science to find a cure... but that does not rule out them studying nature to find one

That's why I said it is not an either/or situations. Do both, take what works best.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's why I said it is not an either/or situations. Do both, take what works best.

I know...that is why I added .....

 

[Nomad]

A better example would be this; eventually, nature will breed humans that are immune to AIDS; or humans will die out from it. Unless humans come up with solutions on their own or the disease quits spreading for other reasons. Nature finds solutions in evolution; but do you want to wait for them to appear spontaneously?

But the point of the original article is that nature may already have come up with a solution to a very similar problem (another species developing a clever form of immunity to a similar viral target, for instance), which we, as particularly smart monkeys, might easily be able to adopt and use ourselves rather than waiting for the species to "adapt" to the problem through natural evolution.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But the point of the original article is that nature may already have come up with a solution to a very similar problem (another species developing a clever form of immunity to a similar viral target, for instance), which we, as particularly smart monkeys, might easily be able to adopt and use ourselves rather than waiting for the species to "adapt" to the problem through natural evolution.

Yes, that's true, good point. I tried to explain that as 'data mining' earlier, but I guess I didn't get it across too well, sorry. I agree we should do this. The article is cool. Just saying it's not the be-all and end-all, because nature solves problems slowly and incrementally; the 'best solution' nature has provided to date will no doubt be a good solution, but not necessarily the best solution.

 

[Sukerkin]

I do agree that the blindly creative pool that life on Earth has endlessly mutated and evolved to deal with all sorts of environmental conditions is a huge resource from which we as a species can draw inspiration. But also we had better hope that our own particular adaptations that have given us monumental brain power pan out in the long run - for we have sacrificed quite a bit to have those big brains, including, almost impossible tho' I find it to imagine, the ability to survive long-term on purely 'raw' food .

 

[Carol]

Most likely if left unchecked it would be an ammunity. I believe big African cats got hit with thier version of AIDS and they did eventually build up an immunity. But possibly not..... in this case I am willing to have science to find a cure... but that does not rule out them studying nature to find one

We are, actively, with little cats too!

The Feline Immunodeficiency Virus (FIV) is very similar to the Feline Leukemia Virus (FeLV), a contagious virus spread through cat bites. That's one of many ways the neighborhood cats getting in to scuffles can be perilous to their health. In the first stage of the infection the cat's body may be able to fight the virus off. However, in the second stage of the infection, the cat's bone marrow gets infected by the virus, and typically never leaves the cat's system. The virus triggers leukemia and the cats often succumb. However, the isolation of FeLV has lead to a vaccine for FeLV. Even better, the vaccine for FeLV has lead to a vaccine for FIV.

I am not sure if cats can fight off FIV in the primary stage like they can FeLV....but I think it is very exciting that a FIV vaccine has been available for house cats for over 10 years. A little tabby cat's body does not have all of the variables of human, but the achievement is at least a start :asian:

 

[oftheherd1]

I do agree that the blindly creative pool that life on Earth has endlessly mutated and evolved to deal with all sorts of environmental conditions is a huge resource from which we as a species can draw inspiration. But also we had better hope that our own particular adaptations that have given us monumental brain power pan out in the long run - for we have sacrificed quite a bit to have those big brains, including, almost impossible tho' I find it to imagine, the ability to survive long-term on purely 'raw' food .

Just curious, can you elaborate on that? I wasn't aware it aided our digestion so much as it affected our teeth and jaw muscles. Nor that we were unable to process raw food. Granted, we probably produce less gas.

 

[Carol]

isn't cooking food something that's as old as fire?

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, Carol, cooking been with us a long time has had an enormous effect on our evolutionary path. It is what allows us to fuel our energy-hog brains, which have responded by getting more powerful.

OTHerd, I only heard of this recently myself. It came from a statement that Prof. Steve Jones, a renowned geneticist made on a Radio 4 science programme I listen to ... I'll browse the Net for the quote ... here we are:

If anybody in this room wants to try a really wierd diet to lose weight or what have you, just eat raw food - you can eat as much raw food as you like, you can have vegetables, fish, meat, whatever you like - you can stuff yourself with it, all day, every day, and you will die within three months. We can’t digest raw food. Chimpanzees, every other animal, only get raw food. And that’s because we’ve lost the genes that allow us to make digestive enzymes to digest this food. And why is that? It’s because we’ve invented an external stomach, called the frying pan.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Huh...if frying pans, through evolution and convention, came to replace a part of our digestive systems, I wonder what computers will eventually do to our brains. :uhoh: I'mma go read a book or something.