Mushin

[JasonASmith]

Hey Folks,
I came across the term "Mushin" when I was reading Living the Martial Way by F. Morgan(Great Book), and I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced it...
According to the book it means "mind no mind"...
From what I've read in Mr. Morgan's book, it's obvious when you see it, and I think that I just have...
I had my first class in Shotokan earlier today, and Sensei demonstrated some techniques on me(which I thought was pretty cool)
After he explained what he wanted me to do, he stepped back into a natural stance and had me attack him...And his face...changed...it's hard to explain, but all of the wrinkles in his face smoothed out, his eyes assumed something of an empty expression(not vacant, however), and I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...
I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?

 

[Bigshadow]

I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?

Jason,

It would be difficult to answer that. Maybe you should ask your instructor to get his opinion of it. I have read the book you were talking about. I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did. It is something you can probably answer for yourself if it were something you experienced but it is difficult to answer for the experiences of someone else, regarding matters such as this.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Better definition of Mushin:

The momentary perfect alignment of mind, body and spirit to purpose.

Cheers,

Dave

PS -- yes. Had it. Amazing experience. Did a lot of work to try to elicit it fomr my students. Didn't see the Tom Cruise movie Las Samurai, until one of my old BB's said they did a good cinemagraphic rep of mushin. They did.

D

 

[JasonASmith]

Jason,

It would be difficult to answer that. Maybe you should ask your instructor to get his opinion of it. I have read the book you were talking about. I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did. It is something you can probably answer for yourself if it were something you experienced but it is difficult to answer for the experiences of someone else, regarding matters such as this.

Just my opinion.

Thanks,
I will ask him about the concept...
I will say that that feeling that I got from him was...well...strange...
Not in a bad way, mind you...I wasn't afraid that I was going to get hurt...
I am prepared for the inevitable bumps, bruises, and joint pain...
I think what it was(and why I posted this thread) was how FAST I got that feeling from him...I mean, one minute he was the guy that I have been talking to for the past few weeks, and the next minute he was something else...And after I attacked(as he told me to) he was back to the person that I knew...explaining everything down to the most minute detail(and bending me into a position that I didn't think that I could go into) In short, he was back to his jovial old self...
Once again, I am not afraid of him...far from it...I just kind of confused, I guess.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I may catch a lot of flak for this....but here goes.

You know when you get up in the morning, walk to the bathroom....do your business, brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed and leave for work?
That's doing not doing.
That's mushin......not some mystical thing that takes years to master.

we get so caught up in some things and try to think through every minute detail.....in doing so, we miss the big picture.

You don't think about walking up or downstairs until you do that thing when you think there is one more step.

 

[Bigshadow]

I may catch a lot of flak for this....but here goes.

You know when you get up in the morning, walk to the bathroom....do your business, brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed and leave for work?
That's doing not doing. That's mushin......

I believe you are absolutely right! I guess the question as I understood it was mushin related to martial arts training.

not some mystical thing that takes years to master.

I agree, it is NOT mystical and I agree it may not take YEARS to master. But what it does take is many, many repetitions of doing something. How many times did you have to do the routine you explained before it was mushin? How much did you have to drive before you drive to work without any thought to driving and the changing driving conditions?

It may not take years, but it certainly takes doing something many times. Then I don't believe it is mastery. I believe in the cases you and I brought up, mushin is the by-product of doing an action so much. However, I believe mastery is being able to turn it on or off at will no matter what you are doing. I certainly cannot do that...

 

[heretic888]

I personally disagree with every explanation given thus far, so I'm just gonna point to a Wikipedia entry for now:

Mushin (無&#24515 is a state into which very highly trained martial artists are said to enter during combat. The term is shortened from mushin no shin (無心の心}, a Zen expression meaning "mind of no mind". That is, a mind not fixed or occupied by thought or emotion and thus open to everything.

Mushin is achieved when a fighter feels no anger, fear or ego during combat. There is an absence of discursive thought, and so the fighter is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation. At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is felt intuitively.

A martial artist would likely have to train for many years to be capable of mushin. This allows time for combinations of movements and exchanges of techniques to be practised repetitively many thousands of times, until they can be performed spontaneously and without conscious thought.

The legendary Zen master and swordsman Takuan Soho said:

"The mind must always be in the state of 'flowing,' for when it stops anywhere that means the flow is interrupted and it is this interruption that is injurious to the well-being of the mind. In the case of the swordsman, it means death. "When the swordsman stands against his opponent, he is not to think of the opponent, nor of himself, nor of his enemy's sword movements. He just stands there with his sword which, forgetful of all technique, is ready only to follow the dictates of the subconscious. The man has effaced himself as the wielder of the sword. When he strikes, it is not the man but the sword in the hand of the man's subconscious that strikes."

However, Mushin is not just a state of mind that can be achieved during combat. Many Martial Artists, particularly those practicing Japanese martial arts such as aikido or iaijutsu, train to achieve this state of mind during Kata (Waza, or patterns) so that a flawless execution of moves is accomplished - that they may be achieved during combat or at any other time. Once Mushin is attained through the practicing or studying of Martial Arts (although it can be accomplished through other arts or practices that refine the mind and body), the objective is to then attain this same level of complete awareness in other aspects of the practitioner's life.

Mushin is very closely related to another state of mind known as heijoshin, wherein a complete balance and harmony is attained in one's life through mental discipline. Musashi Miyamoto the great swordsman alighted to these mental states briefly, and his conversations with Jattaro were often repeated in Japanese folklore as lessons to be learnt for the practice of one's life. Mushin and heijoshin are closely related to the teachings of buddhism and mostly zen teachings, and indeed the more mental aspects and attributes share much in common with these philosophies.

Personally, I think the quote by Takuan Soho was spot on.

Laterz.

 

[Bigshadow]

I personally disagree with every explanation given thus far, so I'm just gonna point to a Wikipedia entry for now:



Personally, I think the quote by Takuan Soho was spot on.

Laterz.

Thanks! That was a great post! I have to rethink what I said. I knew I shouldn't have posted anything on this thread! Haven't had enough coffee yet.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I personally disagree with every explanation given thus far, so I'm just gonna point to a Wikipedia entry for now:



Personally, I think the quote by Takuan Soho was spot on.

Laterz.

Aside from the definition of mushin......i think the rest of the wiki entry is neither here nor there as to what mushin is.

Mushin is really a simple concept, and I didnt really understand how simple it was even after 10 years meditation until a teacher pointed it out to me during a class at shiatsu school.

the Soho quote is great, but it doesn't really describe mushin....
mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.

It's been close to 15 years that i first became serious about zen practice, not very long I know, but long enough for me to realise that the easiest questions are often the hardest to answer because the simple reply is often the most overlooked.

 

[heretic888]

Aside from the definition of mushin......i think the rest of the wiki entry is neither here nor there as to what mushin is.

Mushin is really a simple concept, and I didnt really understand how simple it was even after 10 years meditation until a teacher pointed it out to me during a class at shiatsu school.

the Soho quote is great, but it doesn't really describe mushin....
mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.

It's been close to 15 years that i first became serious about zen practice, not very long I know, but long enough for me to realise that the easiest questions are often the hardest to answer because the simple reply is often the most overlooked.

Now that's an explanation I can actually agree with.

 

[Nomad]

I've had an example of mushin described to me as doing a kata that you know well and losing yourself in the kata... you finish, knowing that you performed it well, but with no memory whatsoever of the individual moves. I have also experienced this once in competition.

Mushin is an altered state of mind that many martial artists will experience during their practice sessions, but usually only rarely. One problem is that as soon as you recognize that it is happening, it is gone. What takes years and years of dedicated practice is being able to move between normal consciousness and this state of flowing described by Takuan at will.

I suspect what Jason was seeing in his instructor was the sense of absolute focus that experienced martial artists get when they are practicing or performing... much like a tiger, they are 100% there in the moment and focused on you and the drill (analogy stolen from Bolelli's "On the Warrior's Path... a great read). Yes, it can a very scary thing to someone who isn't used to it. I know of a couple of people who have used this focused concentration by itself to "convince" a belligerent thug that he'd really rather not instigate a fight after all...

 

[Monadnock]

As for developing it, try meditation and shugyo.

 

[Last Fearner]

Hey Folks,
I came across the term "Mushin" when I was reading Living the Martial Way by F. Morgan(Great Book), and I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced it...

Yes, I have experienced it often, and find it easier to achieve the longer I train, and practice it. I hope this statement does not sound arrogant, or like I am bragging, but it is just a fortunate by-product of my training. I don't know if I have a natural ability, a knack for it, or if it is because I was introduced to the concept at an early age, and have practiced it for my entire life. I am sure my students have observed it in my demeanor at various times, as you did with your instructor, but it is really only something that the person experiencing it can know, for sure, when it has occurred.

Personally, I would not disagree with any of the above definitions, or explanations as it is a personal experience that can occur during any action, anytime, anywhere. Many people have it happen during routine activities of the day. Others during the performance of a sport. Golfers, such as Tiger Woods, no doubt has utilized the skill, as well as race car drivers, stunt men, gun-fighters of the old American West, and many more. For the untrained individual, it is more likely to occur when you least expect it, during a repetitious and familiar activity, or in an instant response to a sudden stimulus or urgent situation.

According to the book it means "mind no mind"...

The Wikipedia definition is accurate that it is shortened from "Mushin No Shin" (Mind of No Mind). It means that your conscious mind must be clear of thought, allowing your subconscious to act in perfect response without interference. If you know the best, ideal action in any given situation, you must not "think" about it - - just do it by subconscious reflex.

If you have seen the movie The Last Samurai, with Tom Cruise, there is a scene where one of the Japanese Samurai attempts to tell Cruise's character why he is not doing well in the practice fighting during his sword training. He says "too many mind." He tells the American that he has mind on sword, opponent, and people watching. He says "No mind!" This means no distractions, no emotion, no intent to attack, and no forethought on what your opponent might do, or how you will respond.

I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...

I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?

It is likely that what you observed in your instructor's demeanor, and facial expression (or lack thereof) was evidence that he had prepared his mind for Mushin No Shin to occur. An opponent can sometimes sense this is happening, as you did when facing your instructor. However, this has little to do with "power," and more to do with the un-obstructed, subconscious performance with complete synchronized harmony between the body, mind, and spirit. While the moments preceding the event are often crucial to preparing the mind, the actual existence of Mushin No Shin will only manifest during the action which follows. The clear mind can be disturbed, and the state of Mushin No Shin lost during the moment of activity.

In modern times, people might describe this experience as being "in the zone," or "in the flow" of things. A person performing a task, responding to an attack, or playing a sport experiences a purely sublime feeling, knowing that their action was dead on perfect without any conscious effort or forethought. In contrast, you are probably familiar with the phrase "to choke under pressure." This is typically the exact opposite of Mushin No Shin. The conscious mind takes over, and too much thought of preparation, fear of failure, or other distractions causes a person to not be able to properly perform something they have done thousands of times before.

As mentioned in Wikipedia's definition, Mushin No Shin is experienced in forms practice also, but I disagree in their statement that this is "particularly in Japanese Martial Arts." It is my experience that all genuine variations of the Martial Art which understands and teaches Mushin No Shin will extend it to other areas (including forms, sparring, and board breaking). In other countries, it may have been labeled differently, but the Japanese term has become very well-known.

Also, I want to point out that, while skills such as "Mushin No Shin" were often a part of Zen training, and connected to Eastern Buddhism, the technique itself is a natural skill common among all humans, and is not directly, or inherently related to any religious doctrine. Therefore, it should be understood that the practice of a "clear mind for ideal action," under any name, does not constitute the practice of buddhism, or the worshiping of any other diety. If you believe in God, for instance, then it should be understood that God created the human brain, and the talents by which we can use that God given gift perfectly, and naturally.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Brother John]

Wish I could contribute more, but a LOT of really great things have been contributed thus far!!! I love this subject, and things of this nature.

Thanks to EVERYONE for a great discussion!!

Your Brother
John

 

[Zennomore]

I came upon this understanding through the path of the Martial Arts, and the realization of something called Mushin.
I first discovered Mushin while competing in a judo tournament, where I found myself behind in the score.
From out on the mat, I could hear my wife yelling, “If you don’t do something soon, you are going to lose!”
The next thing I knew, I was sliding across the mat and the referee was calling an end to the match, with the score Ippon.
I was lying there thinking, “Okay what did he throw me with, and how did I lose?”
I looked over at the referee as he lifted his hand toward me, signaling that I had won the match.
I looked at the corner judges, fully expecting them to overrule his signal, sure that there had to have been a mistake! Instead, my Sensei yelled, “Get off the mat!”

I slowly walked over to him, and he asked, “What’s wrong with you?” I looked at him and said, “What happened?”
Sensei, who is a famous player in his own right, looked at me a little strangely, and said, “You won.”
“How?” I asked. He looked at me, breaking into a huge smile and said, “Oh, so you really don’t know what happened?” I said, “No, all I remember is sliding across the mat on my stomach.”

He said, “Oh Ken, now you learn Judo!”
I knew I had just had a shared experience of mushin only because my sensei recognized the symptoms and later told me what happen. I am looking for other's who have had mushin in competition and how it's has changed their lives.

 

[jks9199]

That's not "mushin." Mushin is a calm awareness and centeredness. Not saying that those moments when things just come together and you don't know how or what happens aren't great experiences -- but they're almost the opposite of mushin, at least as I understand the usage of the term.

 

[Zennomore]

this experience was only the very beginning of mushin. it was the body doing in reflex without thought. it was the reflex of no mind that began to expose the real use of no mind in daily life. once the understanding that the body was trained as you blink, without thought of action you just blink, was the beginning of realizing all the barriers that conscience mind put in the way of centeredness and awareness. It separated what i had thought was whole. i became very aware of the mind's influences. mushin is a tool to find mind and body and the influences they have on one another.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah... that wasn't mushin.

 

[seasoned]

So, someone help me to understand.

I know that when I take the thought process out of an activity, it allows me to see more, feel more, hear more.

example:

I have heard of mushin as being a moving meditation. So, in the middle of confusion, one is able to focus by not focusing. One is able to see all without looking, able to hear all without listening, and above all feel through an avenue of a 6th sense.


Now my question is, and be nice. Is this Mushin, or some part of it, or am I just weirded out?

 

[Chris Parker]

Er, no and no?

I'll see how I go explaining things a bit clearer, as the confusion is fairly common, and both your version and Zennomore's are not unusual.

Firstly, it might do to look at what it isn't, rather than skip ahead to what it is. Mushin doesn't necessarily imply any movement at all (although it is often linked with action), so it isn't a "moving meditation". That term is more often applied to things such as kata (Okinawan form), Iai, Kyudo and so on. It's also not a sixth sense, although there are aspects that can "link in" to such ideas (without going into too much detail here), and the concept of Mushin is often a necessary part of the development of such things.

With Zennomore's story, that's really more about unconscious performance, even intuitive action, but not Mushin itself.

So what is Mushin? Honestly, it's one of those things where you know it when you feel it, you can recognize it, but describing it is another matter altogether, so if this doesn't quite work, you'll understand why!

In simple terms, the concept of Mushin is an absence of the mind... but the thing to remember is that that's not meant in a Western sense. Mushin is also linked closely with the concept of Fudoshin (immovable mind), often with particular systems preferring one over the other. Mushin is the absence of conscious decision making, it's the absence of emotional extremes, it's the absence of any thoughts of what might happen, any pre-judgement or expectation.

To get more metaphorical, it's the still waters of a lake, with all the depths hidden. It's the appearance of water on the moon. It's the imperceptible shadow. It's damn scary.