multiple styles?

[Enson]

here is a question. what are your thoughts on someone learning multiple styles of ninjutsu/ninjitsu? getting their dans in bujin then jumping to genbu, then jeni... so on and so forth. or even god forbid bujin to tew ryu? hee hee! (thats for don:uhyeah: ) i read an article by joo bang lee and he is against someone learning any other style because they should dedicate their life to the betterment of the style they are in. he doesn't allow you to teach or learn any other style once you have decided to learn, teach, study, hwarangdo.

my thoughts on this are mixed. i guess if you are not truley happy in your style you should switch but what has made you make the jump? do you feel that your art is less than.

i personally chose to only study one style.
peace

 

[Jay Bell]

In the Bujinkan, it has been told that people not do this. It's against Hatsumi sensei's wishes for us to cross-train with the Genbukan or Jinenkan. As far as I know, it's okay if you are a member of one of the others..(has this changed at all?)

 

[Dale Seago]

Hasn't changed, Jay.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Sorry wrong thread lol

 

[Enson]

Hasn't changed, Jay.

yeah but what are your thoughts?

 

[Dale Seago]

yeah but what are your thoughts?

I think occasional cross-training/exposure to other arts is beneficial, as long as you first have a good foundation in whatever you've chosen as your "core" art, so you can better understand how to apply the principles of that core art versus opponents who may move and fight differently than you.

Regarding the Bujinkan, Neither Soke nor any of the Japanese shihan seem to have any problem with the idea of Bujinkan practitioners doing this, as long as they respect Soke's wishes not to train with either the Genbukan or Jinenkan. That's how I see it as well.

 

[Dale Seago]

I think occasional cross-training/exposure to other arts is beneficial, as long as you first have a good foundation in whatever you've chosen as your "core" art, so you can better understand how to apply the principles of that core art versus opponents who may move and fight differently than you.

Regarding the Bujinkan, Neither Soke nor any of the Japanese shihan seem to have any problem with the idea of Bujinkan practitioners doing this, as long as they respect Soke's wishes not to train with either the Genbukan or Jinenkan. That's how I see it as well.

Going back to your original post, I think the idea of "someone learning multiple styles of ninjutsu/ninjitsu? getting their dans in bujin then jumping to genbu, then jeni... so on and so forth" is kinda silly. In the Bujinkan, it takes about ten years to get exposed to all the fundamentals, which is still a bit short of having "learned the system". Just trying to go for, say, shodan level in a variety of systems leaves you with all the weaknesses of your lack of in-depth understanding of each one, combined with your inability to make them "fit" properly with each other. It's like having a series of one-night stands: May be a lot of fun, but you never develop or understand meaningful relationships.

 

[Hanzo04]

i see know reason for studying diff. styles of ninjutsu. choose one of the X-kans and stick to it. all of the have there advantages. there's no point in getting shodans in three x-kans.

 

[Enson]

Regarding the Bujinkan, Neither Soke nor any of the Japanese shihan seem to have any problem with the idea of Bujinkan practitioners doing this, as long as they respect Soke's wishes not to train with either the Genbukan or Jinenkan. That's how I see it as well.

why would dr. hatsumi not wish anyone else to train with the other kans? is there something wrong with it? resentment toward the others? not trying to offend but kinda made me wonder why?

 

[Shogun]

I would'nt see the problem in studying other arts (say, escrima) but training in the Jinenkan or Genbukan doesnt seem .......I dont know......right, I guess.
Training in other martial arts entirely seems like it could only be benificial. however, training in one of the other X-kans might cause confusion. it is literally the same techniques, but the views and opinions, philosophy, etc is so radically different.
my thoughts.

 

[gmunoz]

As a beginning practitioner I would only like to say that to develop a tendency of mixing similar styles (within the kans) almost seems futile. To shodan in one's core art isn't the end, but the beginning. As Shodan mentioned, I could also see the benefit in assimilating stuff from styles completely different, but within the kans where does loyalty come to play a part?

I don't know, but it takes a lot of consideration when choosing a style to train in. When I begin to dabble in other styles, what kind of message am I telling myself or my teacher? This style is no longer keeping me giddy? I'm not completely satisfied?

Of course that is only one perspective. I can also see the other side of things as one attempting to expose themselves to other kans to become a more well-rounded practitioner. Interesting question.

 

[gmunoz]

As Shodan mentioned, I could also see the benefit in assimilating stuff from styles completely different, but within the kans where does loyalty come to play a part?

I meant to say Shogun, not Shodan. Sorry.

 

[r.severe]

I spoke with Nagato shihan many times on my background because of his many questions from him and Hatsumi sensei. They both were very interested in what Ihave done.. background.
From what I remeber from these conversations they were very easy going with it, interested in it, and pleased with my background.

I'm sure many martial artist that are serious as well as hobbyist have different backgrounds that can be taken differently by Hatsumi sensei.
Hatsumi sensei book he written about other martial arts have many different sustems of combat in it.. pages full of different points...
And you have his pistol book.. which of course is not part of the traditional bujutsu.. that is with updated weaponry...
So you cannot say what anyone is really thinking...
Opinions on what others think means nothing.. it's mainly hear say...
But.. you also have a direct question that gets a direct answer too.. which might be JUST for that 'one' person... not for anyone else...

I feel if you live in a bubble you soon run out of air and die..
More or less the same with anything else.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Shogun]

And you have his pistol book.. which of course is not part of the traditional bujutsu.. that is with updated weaponry...

Maybe not "updated", but I believe its called Hojutsu.

ps gmunoz, apology accepted. lol.

 

[Don Roley]

I would'nt see the problem in studying other arts (say, escrima) but training in the Jinenkan or Genbukan doesnt seem .......I dont know......right, I guess.

Very good. Not just for the reasons you stated, but also because when you join a Japanese martial arts dojo, you take on a relationship that is just not a business one, but one closer to family. You expect the teacher to treat you not just as a source of revenue, but as someone he has an honest interest in seeing improve. In return for his father like guidence, you have to play the role of a child in many ways. If this is not acceptable, it is best to leave rather than try to go behind a teachers back.

It is kind of like dealing with a girlfriend in many ways. If she has a problem with another woman and do not want you to spend much time with that person, the responsible boyfriend would defer to her wishes with understanding unless the demands got silly. There are prices to pay for relationships and anyone who has had a succesfull one for over a few years can tell you. If the demands were silly, then the responsible person would make a clean break rather than go behind anyone's back.

On the matter of arts like escrima, you have to be carefull. Way back in Aiki News #99 Ellis Amdur had a great piece that included the following tidbit.

On a somatic level, too, the movements of atemi must be congruent with those of aikido waza. The The unintegrated addition of karate or boxing techniques is problematic, because one has to re-orginize on a neuro-muscular level the shifting from one martial system to another. This is dangerous because suki (vulnerable areas) occur in one's defenses at the moment of the shift, no matter how quick one is. As there is a spiritual orginization which is inherent in each martial art, it is also possible that you will distort yourself, entering a bastard spiritual state, neither karate or aikido. One cannot do justice to the moral requirements of either martial system.

Ecclecticism is often superficial, a refuge of shallow understanding. One can aquire a range of various skills, and be impressive in one's knowledge. However, without commitment to a discipline, without involvement in depth, none of these skills are an expression of one's own being. To illustrate this, let us consider an individual who goes out drinking and picking up a different bed partner every night. He or she is likely to be far less able to give to another person than the individual who truly commits to one man or woman. The former has far more experience, far more stories to tell, but the committed one has heart.

Alas, that small section cannot do justice to the whole article, and copyright laws won't let me quote much more and still be "fair use." If you can get it, I urge you to do so. He talks a lot about how some people have succesfully blended two arts together in a seemless way while most have great big holes that the creators can't see. I think it may have been reprinted in his new book.

I think it is good to go out and see other arts and try them out. I did not start in Bujinkan. If I had not been willing to go out and see other arts I would not be training in it now. There may be other arts that are even better for my needs out there somewhere and unless I look I may never find out if they exist. But you do need to commit to one art and not try to hunt too many rabbits at once. Different arts do things diffrently for very important reasons. Things like the position of a foot angle may seem small, but they are frequently just the tip of a very important iceburg.

 

[gmunoz]

Fair enough. "We become what we are committed to" (Warren, R., 2003) A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. I try to fully commit myself to a few things instead of half-committing to many. Jack of all trades and master of none? I'd rather hone skills in one area instead of having one-night stands with a few different styels at the same time. Mr. Roley's analogy of the committment in a relationship is good. Thank you.

 

[Don Roley]

Mr. Roley's analogy of the committment in a relationship is good. Thank you.

I only quoted it. The original quote is by Ellis Amdur.

There is a fine line between not being ignorant of other things (Dave Lowry once wrote about a high ranked Japanese Karateka who severely injured himself because he did not know even a simple judo brekafall but also has written things along the of the Amdur article I wrote) and spreading oneself so thin over many arts that you never get excellent at any one.

 

[Don Roley]

Here is a good article kind of related to the subject. Read it and see how some people who study multiple styles can often be....

Pirates! %-}

 

[Kalifallen]

I think it is cool to learn a different varieties of ninjutsu. I'm going to learn Tew Ryu and Bujinkan and pretty proud of the variety that I'm going to learn.

 

[Bujingodai]

I am a big believer in cross training. For a variety of reasons. You will gain the knowledge of the other styles and the way they carry things, often this is good when you are learning of culture etc etc. You may pick up a technique here and there. Absolutley making sure that you are devoted to the school you have chosen though. Honestly I really enjoy meeting people and networking. You;d be suprised at who has lots of talent and who speaks more than they can show.