Howcome the tempo in MMA differs so much from other martial arts?

[Flengel]

I have been practicing Muay Thai at my local gym for nearly a year now. I have watched alot of fights in real life and on TV and I have done some full contact sparring.
One thing you can say for sure is that muay thai is really effective for badly injuring your opponent, if one wishes to do so. But there is one thing about it that i don't really understand.
Howcome the "tempo", call it what you will, is so slow in muay thai? I don't mean the way that you breath or the way that you walk while ion stance, I mean the slow tempo and lack of aggression in the overall fights. Same thing with classic western boxing, sure it can be brutal, but the pace isn't really like a IRL fight would be.. what is the cause of this?

Could it be that when you know your opponent is equally skilled, you dont go for the knockout at once? I don't really get t.. hard to explain. Ofcourse some fighters don't wanna go for the K, like Ali, for example, but if you imagine a real life bar fight you don't see two men jabbing at eachothers for minutes and minutes. Get what I'm saying?


And lately I have been looking at some fights in the octagon, MMA you know. And the pace inside the cage is much more like a real life encounter. Right?
I get the impression that the MMA practioners dosent really care what happens to them, they reather shoot for the opponents leg and then hopes for the best turnout without really planning anything.

I hope someone gets what I am trying to say and can explain this to me. I did not in any way intend to say that one martial art is superior to another while writing this

 

[drop bear]

That is just the way the Thais fight it is a cultural thing.

 

[Kframe]

It has a lot to do with the nature of the setting and the skill sets involved. Not everyone in UFC/MMA has High level grappling. A lot of them are better at striking and stand up with only moderate skill on the ground..

That was definitely how it was at my MMA gym. Some had far better grappling then others and only used striking to set up the grappling. I was in the other camp, more striker then grappler. So for the longest time I had to play it safe in sparring and only fight on the outside, constantly moving away or at angles and in the process developed a counter fighter skill set predominantly. Which, is were my issues with the coach came from(discussed in sparring thread) I was so good at counter fighting that I could not effectively attack and every time I did so ended with my destruction.

So I honestly think that it is the nature of the setting and skill sets. Those that are not that good on the ground are likely to avoid getting entangled standing and will avoid the clinch. Thus making it a boring fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they reather shoot for the opponents leg and then hopes for the best turnout without really planning anything.

It's not smart to do as you have described. When you move into your opponent, you should try to reduce your own risk to the minimum. In order to do so, you will need to feel where your opponent's legs and arms are. Make sure it won't give you any trouble when you move in. You just don't "shoot in" and hope your opponent's knee, elbow, fist won't land on your head.

You will need to study your opponent before you decide what strategy to apply on him. Does your opponent like to,

- use his elbow to block your kicks or punches (metal)?
- use long range kicks, punches (wood)?
- play defense and counter (water)?
- hop around (fire)?
- advance inch by inch with strong defense (earth)?

 

[Danny T]

Rules and money.
Understand the rules and Follow the money.
Because of how the money drives the sports, how the fighters are paid (or the camps), and the rules by which the sports are held the fights present differently.

 

[drop bear]

You can finish a guy in mma a bit quicker than Thai due to smaller gloves. And it is harder to stop a flurry.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6ULdV1OfE

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Are you asking about the tempo in Muay Thai, MMA, or both?

Anyway, here's a primer on the reasons for tempo in those arts vs "real life" fights.

If you are discussing a violent non-sporting encounter involving a professional (criminal, cop, bouncer, etc), remember that the professional doesn't want an actual fight to ever occur. The professional will try to stack all the elements of the encounter (surprise, positioning, numbers, weaponry, etc) in his favor so that his "opponent" never has a chance to fight back. Whether it's a beatdown by a mob leg-breaker or an arrest by a cop, the professional wants to make sure that the "fight" is over before it begins.

If you are discussing a "real life fight" where two individuals are fighting due to anger, intoxication, or the "monkey dance" for social status, then the fights will be fast because the participants are generally angry and unskilled. They are throwing everything they have at the other person as fast and hard as they can without much in the way of skilled defense. Usually in fairly short order either one person loses the fight or both fighters are exhausted, or third parties pull them apart.

A fight in the ring between two professional competitors is a different affair. The circumstances of the competition make it a "fair fight", so the fighters can't rely on surprise, numbers, or superior weaponry to overwhelm their opponents. Charging directly at your opponent like an angry drunken brawler is a losing proposition. A good professional Muay Thai fighter is too skilled at defense. He'll easily weather the storm and then destroy you once you have exhausted yourself. Therefore, professional ring fighters will typically take the time to probe their opponent's defenses, evaluate his weaknesses, and execute a careful plan to exploit those weaknesses and tear down those defenses. How long they take to do that will vary somewhat depending on the rules of the competition: how long the fight is scheduled for and how points are awarded. Partly as a cultural matter, Thai fighters will take their time in the opening rounds to feel out their opponents before pouring on the heat in later rounds.

Your impression of MMA fights is not really accurate at all, at least regarding modern high-level competition. Most top-level fighters are working to execute carefully designed game plans to exploit their opponent's weaknesses without exposing their own. You do see more early finishes in MMA than in Muay Thai. This is primarily because there are many more avenues of attack, which increases the chances for a fighter to make a mistake and leave an opening in his defense. Also, as drop bear notes, the smaller gloves increase the chance for an early knockout.

 

[drop bear]

Are you asking about the tempo in Muay Thai, MMA, or both?

Anyway, here's a primer on the reasons for tempo in those arts vs "real life" fights.

If you are discussing a violent non-sporting encounter involving a professional (criminal, cop, bouncer, etc), remember that the professional doesn't want an actual fight to ever occur. The professional will try to stack all the elements of the encounter (surprise, positioning, numbers, weaponry, etc) in his favor so that his "opponent" never has a chance to fight back. Whether it's a beatdown by a mob leg-breaker or an arrest by a cop, the professional wants to make sure that the "fight" is over before it begins.

If you are discussing a "real life fight" where two individuals are fighting due to anger, intoxication, or the "monkey dance" for social status, then the fights will be fast because the participants are generally angry and unskilled. They are throwing everything they have at the other person as fast and hard as they can without much in the way of skilled defense. Usually in fairly short order either one person loses the fight or both fighters are exhausted, or third parties pull them apart.

A fight in the ring between two professional competitors is a different affair. The circumstances of the competition make it a "fair fight", so the fighters can't rely on surprise, numbers, or superior weaponry to overwhelm their opponents. Charging directly at your opponent like an angry drunken brawler is a losing proposition. A good professional Muay Thai fighter is too skilled at defense. He'll easily weather the storm and then destroy you once you have exhausted yourself. Therefore, professional ring fighters will typically take the time to probe their opponent's defenses, evaluate his weaknesses, and execute a careful plan to exploit those weaknesses and tear down those defenses. How long they take to do that will vary somewhat depending on the rules of the competition: how long the fight is scheduled for and how points are awarded. Partly as a cultural matter, Thai fighters will take their time in the opening rounds to feel out their opponents before pouring on the heat in later rounds.

Your impression of MMA fights is not really accurate at all, at least regarding modern high-level competition. Most top-level fighters are working to execute carefully designed game plans to exploit their opponent's weaknesses without exposing their own. You do see more early finishes in MMA than in Muay Thai. This is primarily because there are many more avenues of attack, which increases the chances for a fighter to make a mistake and leave an opening in his defense. Also, as drop bear notes, the smaller gloves increase the chance for an early knockout.

Proper traditional Thai does have this long feeling out process.

 

[Danny T]

Traditional Thai has the long feeling out process because of betting. Fights start slow in the first round and subsequent rounds increase in action building up the betting odds as bets are placed by the fight as well as rounds. Fighters and camps make money off the betting.

 

[Grenadier]

I mean the slow tempo and lack of aggression in the overall fights. Same thing with classic western boxing, sure it can be brutal, but the pace isn't really like a IRL fight would be.. what is the cause of this?

It's still a sport, and one with a controlled environment. As a sport fighter, you take time to probe your opponent for his strengths and weaknesses, and are looking for an opportunity to attack and defend optimally.

It's not the same thing as a real live fight, where anything goes, and you probably don't know your opponent's tendencies. Also, in the ring, you don't have nearly as much adrenaline pumping as you would in a fight or flight situation in real life.

And lately I have been looking at some fights in the octagon, MMA you know. And the pace inside the cage is much more like a real life encounter. Right?

I disagree. If you look at the fights that are conducted between two opponents of somewhat similar skill, conditioning, etc., they do take their time, and wait for the other guy to make a mistake, or they'll launch a combination attack that they believe will be able to catch the opponent off guard.

Sure, you'll still have some squash-type matches, where one guy is horribly mismatched against the other guy, but that's why they have ranking systems that dictate the matchups.

I get the impression that the MMA practioners dosent really care what happens to them, they reather shoot for the opponents leg and then hopes for the best turnout without really planning anything.

Yes, and no. The rules prohibit downward elbow strikes to the head, as well as kicks to a grounded opponent. At the same time, small joint manipulation is prohibited. Thus, each system out there will be somewhat handicapped compared to what goes on in real life.

The competitors must still be protected, or else your matches aren't going to last very long, and your fighters will suffer debilitating injuries early on in their careers. If I ran a MMA gig, I'd want to make sure that the athletes can compete on a regular basis, and give it their best, without having to excessively worry about how long their hospital stays would be.

As a competitor, it would only make sense to formulate a game plan that can optimally work under the current rules. This is true regardless of the avenue, whether it be MMA, or a traditional martial arts tournament.




I hope someone gets what I am trying to say and can explain this to me. I did not in any way intend to say that one martial art is superior to another while writing this [/QUOTE]

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Also, in the ring, you don't have nearly as much adrenaline pumping as you would in a fight or flight situation in real life.

I see this suggestion made frequently in these discussions. I'm not sure it's accurate. I've fought a couple of kickboxing matches in the ring. I've also been in a handful of street fights. I probably had more adrenaline going in the ring than I did in the street situations.

 

[SandaBoxing]

Going all out crazy in the street is for untrained and unexperienced people mostly. Martial Artists who don't fight, fits this bill also or can be upgraded a bit to lesser trained or lesser experienced when it comes to fighting, which is why they brawl.

This brawling all out certainly exists among lesser trained people in TMA and MMA. In the beginning, when they start sparring 50% power to even 100% power, they usually freak out when getting hit in the head and starts brawling until they gas. While experienced fighters will be calm, picking their shots and knows not to go crazy. While brawling can still happen, especially when there's an opportunity to finish the fight (like when you've landed a good shot(s).

Brawling immediately certainly can work in the street or ring, it's just more for Noobies. A crazy noobie brawler can get lucky and KO an experienced fighter, but usually not. An experienced fighter can certainly brawl also and have better chance, as this fighter has been there and done that. It takes much more experience to develop this calmness and fight calmly. It's pretty easy to just jab some crazy brawler who's going crazy, flush in the face, and disrupt his whole momentum. Then here comes the followup and KO. This works both in the street and in gym. While in the ring, you're fighting someone who's usually equally trained and experienced so it's much more difficult than in the streets.