More naihanchi?

[Prince_Alarming]

Hiya. I'm using the period when I'm injured to get more into kata. I've read that there are in fact several naihanchi katas, I was wondering whether any of you have any resources for learning naihanchi nidan and sandan? Thanks

 

[Hot Lunch]

Hiya. I'm using the period when I'm injured to get more into kata. I've read that there are in fact several naihanchi katas, I was wondering whether any of you have any resources for learning naihanchi nidan and sandan? Thanks

If you're Isshin-ryu, you don't need Nidan or Sandan. In fact, Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi is too far removed from the Shodan of other styles for learning Nidan and Sandan to compliment it much.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

If you're Isshin-ryu, you don't need Nidan or Sandan. In fact, Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi is too far removed from the Shodan of other styles for learning Nidan and Sandan to compliment it much.

I had to look up what Isshinryu's Naihanchi looked like. It appears to contain all moves in Naihanchi Shodan, with the same emphasis on the underlying principles that I was taught with Naihanchi in Taekwondo.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you're Isshin-ryu, you don't need Nidan or Sandan. In fact, Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi is too far removed from the Shodan of other styles for learning Nidan and Sandan to compliment it much.

What do you base this on? All versions are remarkably the same across styles. This includes isshinryu, shito-ryu, Motobu-ryu, shorinryu, shotokan's tekki and even TSD's version which all utilize the same general movements with only slight differences in execution. In fact, I don't know of any other kata which is so similar across multiple styles.

 

[J. Pickard]

There are some great videos on youtube you can use as a resource. What system/style do you train? Our system is korean and we actually call it chulgi (translation of Tekki) so its more similar to shotokan than any other okinawan style. I have heard that naihanchi 1,2, and 3 were once just one long kata that was later separated into 3 parts but I don't know how true it is.

 

[Hot Lunch]

What do you base this on? All versions are remarkably the same across styles. This includes isshinryu, shito-ryu, Motobu-ryu, shorinryu, shotokan's tekki and even TSD's version which all utilize the same general movements with only slight differences in execution. In fact, I don't know of any other kata which is so similar across multiple styles.

Isshin-ryu is the only style that moves to the left first. All other syles move to the right first. The Isshin-ryu Naihanchi is also longer than other style's Shodan.

 

[Hot Lunch]

My bad. Isshin-ryu moves to the right first like everyone else, and doesn't have more moves (sweeps in particular) than everyone else. Do I get some green now?

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have heard that naihanchi 1,2, and 3 were once just one long kata that was later separated into 3 parts but I don't know how true it is.

That's the most accepted theory. The kata originated from Matsumura (based on a Chinese form?) He taught it to Kyan and Itosu. Itosu taught it to Chibana and Motobu. Motobu (according to the only source I've found) taught only naihanchi shodan, though he likely knew all three. Motobu's version starts stepping to the left. Shimabuku, who studied this form with both Kyan and Motobu, adopted Motobu's method of starting to the left and of only teaching shodan.

Isshin-ryu is the only style that moves to the left first. All other syles move to the right first. The Isshin-ryu Naihanchi is also longer than other style's Shodan.

Are you really trying to contradict Isshinryuronin regarding isshinryu??? I started in 1966.

Both your points are wrong. As mentioned above, Motobu moved to the left first, though his "style" is not too common. All versions of naihanchi shodan that I know of use the same main movements and are of the same length.

Isshinryu's stepping to the left is not "too far removed" from other styles, as you said. It is of minor importance as the form is performed in mirror image. It doesn't really matter if you do the first half going to the left and the second half going to the right, or visa versa. And nothing prevents this style's version from doing the nidan and sandan versions as you claim, if Shimabuku so desired. Your assertions are completely unfounded, to put it kindly.

 

[isshinryuronin]

My bad. Isshin-ryu moves to the right first like everyone else,

You're having a bad day, Hot Lunch. Wrong again. Isshinryu does start to the left and does employ more nami gaeshi than some other styles. I don't count this as making it longer, though, just modifying the step.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Are you really trying to contradict Isshinryuronin regarding isshinryu??? I started in 1966.

I give two bucks. Well, two things that rhyme with bucks.

Both your points are wrong. As mentioned above, Motobu moved to the left first, though his "style" is not too common. All versions of naihanchi shodan that I know of use the same main movements and are of the same length.

Other styles don't do as many sweeps as Isshin-ryu.

Isshinryu's stepping to the left is not "too far removed" from other styles, as you said. It is of minor importance as the form is performed in mirror image. It doesn't really matter if you do the first half going to the left and the second half going to the right, or visa versa. And nothing prevents this style's version from doing the nidan and sandan versions as you claim, if Shimabuku so desired. Your assertions are completely unfounded, to put it kindly.

If Nidan and Sandan were to be "Isshinryu-ized," that would be one thing. I'm versed in all three of Shorin-ryu's Naihanchis and all three of Shotokan's Tekkis.

If I learned Shodan in one of them, and Nidan and Sandan in another, I wouldn't get the sense of "completedness" out of it that the OP appears to be seeking.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You're having a bad day, Hot Lunch. Wrong again. Isshinryu does start to the left and does employ more nami gaeshi than some other styles.

You're so desperate to be right, that you disagreed with a statement I made that you just confirmed was correct right here; and then when I made a sarcastic reply that sided with your disagreement, it's "wrong again."

Maybe I should tell you not to eat yellow snow.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That's the most accepted theory. The kata originated from Matsumura (based on a Chinese form?) He taught it to Kyan and Itosu. Itosu taught it to Chibana and Motobu. Motobu (according to the only source I've found) taught only naihanchi shodan, though he likely knew all three. Motobu's version starts stepping to the left. Shimabuku, who studied this form with both Kyan and Motobu, adopted Motobu's method of starting to the left and of only teaching shodan.


Are you really trying to contradict Isshinryuronin regarding isshinryu??? I started in 1966.

Both your points are wrong. As mentioned above, Motobu moved to the left first, though his "style" is not too common. All versions of naihanchi shodan that I know of use the same main movements and are of the same length.

Isshinryu's stepping to the left is not "too far removed" from other styles, as you said. It is of minor importance as the form is performed in mirror image. It doesn't really matter if you do the first half going to the left and the second half going to the right, or visa versa. And nothing prevents this style's version from doing the nidan and sandan versions as you claim, if Shimabuku so desired. Your assertions are completely unfounded, to put it kindly.

When I teach naihanchi to kids, I sometimes stand in front of them and mirror the kata, so I can perform it either direction. Easy to do once you do it a few times.

 

[J. Pickard]

When I teach naihanchi to kids, I sometimes stand in front of them and mirror the kata, so I can perform it either direction. Easy to do once you do it a few times.

Same. It's actually really helpful that the kata only moves on the one plain of direction, not a lot of other kata are easy to do this with.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Same. It's actually really helpful that the kata only moves on the one plain of direction, not a lot of other kata are easy to do this with.

Very interesting kata. Simple in movement doesn't mean simple in purpose. Motobu thought is represented an entire system of close combat, with a lot of manhandling the opponent to one side or another. In another thread a couple of days ago it was mentioned that the Okinawan masters were BS'ers and I agreed that they sometimes told tall tales to the Marines, like this kata was designed to fight up against a wall, hence it being done on a horizontal 180o embusen line. In reality, you can enter at any angle the situation dictates. I don't think anyone really knows why the form was designed this way. Maybe it was just the simplest way to illustrate the techniques and allow the student to concentrate fully on their execution.

 

[Abdelmajid3]

Hiya. I'm using the period when I'm injured to get more into kata. I've read that there are in fact several naihanchi katas, I was wondering whether any of you have any resources for learning naihanchi nidan and sandan? Thanks

Hi ,
Naihanchi or tekki katas

 

[HighKick]

Hi ,
Naihanchi or tekki katas

I assume some of this is style/system specific. I know three Naihanchi forms simply named one, two, & three. They are linear forms that build on each other. The one's I know are from TSD/TKD.
You can likely find your forms on Youtube, but without having a rough idea of the correct pattern for your style, you run the risk of learning the wrong motion from videos.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hiya. I'm using the period when I'm injured to get more into kata. I've read that there are in fact several naihanchi katas, I was wondering whether any of you have any resources for learning naihanchi nidan and sandan? Thanks

I guess I’ve got to ask the standard question: are you working with a skilled instructor who is able to teach this to you?

If you are, then stick with what he is teaching and get your answers from him/her. There is always variation from one teacher to another, and exploring the internet for videos and examples from sources that may not be trustworthy, or at the very least consistent, is a good way to end up with a lot of frustration and misguided efforts and could very easily undermine your learning experience with your teacher.

If you do not have a teacher, I suggest you do not do this. I am always the killjoy in these discussions, but the truth is, you cannot effectively learn this stuff via video, without a competent instructor to guide you. Learning to mimic patterns of movement by watching video, is easy. But kata is much more than simply a sequence of movement. There are specific qualities to that movement that are often not visibly obvious, but make the difference between time well spent or a complete waste of time. What you learn from video ends up being a very superficial copy of the true kata. It looks like the same kata and isn’t wrong, exactly, but at the same time, none of the movement is actually correct and the whole thing is wrong. But you will never understand that, if you learn it from video and don’t have a good instructor to correct the subtleties of the movement and help you understand what is actually going on.

People often feel that doing something is better than doing nothing. They use that as a justification for undertaking this kind of endeavor, but the truth is, there are things that cannot be learned in this way. For these things, doing something can be worse than doing nothing. Some things can be self-taught. Complex aspects of martial methods, such as kata, cannot.

 

[Abdelmajid3]

I assume some of this is style/system specific. I know three Naihanchi forms simply named one, two, & three. They are linear forms that build on each other. The one's I know are from TSD/TKD.
You can likely find your forms on Youtube, but without having a rough idea of the correct pattern for your style, you run the risk of learning the wrong motion from videos.

I mean what make the difference in styles.

 

[HighKick]

I mean what make the difference in styles.

Regional influences, things lost to time, improved techniques, added, an instructor/school/system personal influence... The list goes on and on. Since they are an older form set, I think the primary reason(s) would be regional influence and things lost to time. For example, a soldier may have learned a while in Japan, moved back to another country, continued doing the form but may have lost or changed a move.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I assume some of this is style/system specific. I know three Naihanchi forms simply named one, two, & three. They are linear forms that build on each other. The one's I know are from TSD/TKD.
You can likely find your forms on Youtube, but without having a rough idea of the correct pattern for your style, you run the risk of learning the wrong motion from videos.

Looks like, in addition to Isshin-ryu, Wado-ryu is another style that only has Shodan. OP didn't say what style he was. TSD's Naihanchi Cho Dan appears to be the most similar to Wado-ryu's Naihanchi. If OP is Wado-ryu and wants to learn 2 & 3, Tang Soo Do's versions could be the best fit.