MMA vs TMA

[Tony Dismukes]

Not missing your point at all.

The reason I suggest that is because you keep reiterating the whole message of "get to your feet right away, you BJJers are going to get your heads kicked in by choosing to stay on the ground" as if we were advocating staying on the ground or as if we hadn't already agreed that getting up quickly was a priority.

If you and I locked up (with your grappling experience) and following your "safer techniques" you think I could just get up without you attempting to pull me back down to the ground? Would you just allow me to stand back up on my feet? You seem to think like a grappler who will always be fighting a grappler who will choose to battle you on the ground.

If I followed your advice to get back to my feet safely what the hell would you do? Stand up where you aren't as comfortable? NO you would attempt to get me back on the ground.

By "you" do you mean me specifically? Then you are incorrect. Please see the point I just made above and that I have made repeatedly in this conversation.

Or by "you" do you mean some generic opponent who has tackled you to the ground and is determined to keep you there? I suppose that opponent might try to drag you back down if you executed a technical escape and got back to your feet. By that same token, they would also try to drag you back down if you managed to escape by relying on pure instinct and physical attributes. What's your point?

You seem to think like a grappler who will always be fighting a grappler who will choose to battle you on the ground.

Please point to even one sentence I have written that suggests this in the slightest.

As far as ingraining survival instincts into people that is natural. One upping the natural part to add "fury" I don't have a textbook message for other than to train with people who do have it. But don't forget I am not a teacher with a class of students. I haven't told a single person here to train the way I do.

Fair enough. I asked because of your earlier question about whether I would prefer to teach technique or survival instinct:

If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

That seems to imply that you think it is possible and desirable to teach inexperienced students to "scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them." If you don't know how to do it, then I'm not sure why you were advocating for it.

Frankly, this conversation seems to be going nowhere. From my standpoint, it seems that you are being vague, inconsistent, and self-contradictory in your claims while responding to assumptions in your head about what people are thinking rather than anything they are actually writing. Unless you have something new to say, I'll leave you to enjoy your training.

 

[Steve]

It also seems like you're framing this whole discussion in terms of who is tougher or more badass. Neither Steve nor I have claimed that we are more deadly than you or that we could beat you in a fight or that our art is better than yours or anything of the sort. (In fact I've specifically disavowed any such claims.)

Regarding this, I'm not a badass at all. I'm a big teddy bear.

 

[Hanzou]

The 2 bolded statements above show how little you know of striking, yeah throwing an unrefined and sloppy punch or kick is easy, striking hard, fast, accurate, focussed and effective is hard and takes a lot of training, anyone who has been hit hard by a trained traditional martial artist can attest to that.

Which is why TMA guys usually get their butts handed to them by untrained brawlers right? You don't need to train in traditional arts to throw a good punch, you just need to know how to punch, and its very easy to learn how to punch. All you really need is a punching bag and two hands. Good enough to fight professionally? Nah. Good enough to beat the average guy coming out of a dojo? Sure.

I have already explained how and in what circumstances that will work.

Yes you have, and I find them even more hilarious when you try to explain it. I yearn for the day I see the video of your class practicing that technique. I bet you guys have one guy coming in for the tackle, and another student karate chopping them in the back of the head, and the tackling student collapses in front of you.

Do you go "Hee-Yah!" when you do the chop? That would be icing on the cake. :lol:

That was just lift up and roll over, they may have just thought of that themselves. Oh and look at 0:11 and 0:19 the guy on the bottom can reach the other guy's neck.

The goal of that move is to move from a position of weakness to a position of dominance without relying on physical strength. Is it a perfect move? No. However, its far more reliable than shin kicks to the back of the head, or knees to the kidneys while a person is sitting on your sternum punching you in the face.

 

[K-man]

Which is why TMA guys usually get their butts handed to them by untrained brawlers right? You don't need to train in traditional arts to throw a good punch, you just need to know how to punch, and its very easy to learn how to punch. All you really need is a punching bag and two hands. Good enough to fight professionally? Nah. Good enough to beat the average guy coming out of a dojo? Sure.

:bs:

Yes you have, and I find them even more hilarious when you try to explain it. I yearn for the day I see the video of your class practicing that technique. I bet you guys have one guy coming in for the tackle, and another student karate chopping them in the back of the head, and the tackling student collapses in front of you.

Do you go "Hee-Yah!" when you do the chop? That would be icing on the cake. :lol:

:bs:

you are off the scale. :BSmeter:

 

[SENC-33]

The reason I suggest that is because you keep reiterating the whole message of "get to your feet right away, you BJJers are going to get your heads kicked in by choosing to stay on the ground" as if we were advocating staying on the ground or as if we hadn't already agreed that getting up quickly was a priority.



By "you" do you mean me specifically? Then you are incorrect. Please see the point I just made above and that I have made repeatedly in this conversation.

Or by "you" do you mean some generic opponent who has tackled you to the ground and is determined to keep you there? I suppose that opponent might try to drag you back down if you executed a technical escape and got back to your feet. By that same token, they would also try to drag you back down if you managed to escape by relying on pure instinct and physical attributes. What's your point?



Please point to even one sentence I have written that suggests this in the slightest.



Fair enough. I asked because of your earlier question about whether I would prefer to teach technique or survival instinct:



That seems to imply that you think it is possible and desirable to teach inexperienced students to "scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them." If you don't know how to do it, then I'm not sure why you were advocating for it.

Frankly, this conversation seems to be going nowhere. From my standpoint, it seems that you are being vague, inconsistent, and self-contradictory in your claims while responding to assumptions in your head about what people are thinking rather than anything they are actually writing. Unless you have something new to say, I'll leave you to enjoy your training.

Tony I have never advocated the ground training I do to ANYBODY on here. This entire debacle started when one of you pretty much told me I was "unrealistic" for thinking I could reach a trained ground fighters eyes or throat. From there it went in a dozen different directions.......at the sake of going back and forth and getting nowhere I will "try" to wrap it up with this.

I have NEVER; not even once in all my years of involvement in real life situations seen a trained grappler take a guy to the ground, mount him and do any kind of damage to the guy on the bottom. I have never seen an armbar or even a choke out. I'm sure it happens but never seen it. What I have seen is a lot of rolling around, wild punches being thrown, thrashing about and utter chaos. I have also seen (as mentioned many times before) a lot of ribs broke and heads kicked from bystanders. In every BJJ gym I have ever cross trained at I have seen 2 guys rolling around on a mat mounting each other and choking and locking each other up in a "competition" on the ground. I haven't seen one thing in any BJJ gym I have ever been to that looked anything like self defense. Maybe it's just the places I have been to or the videos I have seen but it all looks the same to me. Just my personal opinion but the last thing I am worried about during an altercation is being taken to the ground and "kept on the ground" by a grappler. I train on the ground all the time but I train for that mass chaos that I have always seen because the odds are better that this scenario is more likely to happen. I am sure you have talent on a mat and you could probably lock me up on a mat when we are "competing" but outside the gym on the street I'm not concerned about my survivalist strategy one bit.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Someday I hope there's a film based on this thread...

Knowing the world the way it is someone will make a reality TV show about it, they make them about just about everything else.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Which is why TMA guys usually get their butts handed to them by untrained brawlers right?

No that is how untrained brawlers get hurt.

You don't need to train in traditional arts to throw a good punch, you just need to know how to punch, and its very easy to learn how to punch. All you really need is a punching bag and two hands. Good enough to fight professionally? Nah. Good enough to beat the average guy coming out of a dojo? Sure.

By your reasoning, you do not have to train BJJ to put someone on the ground, jump on top of them or twist their arm or choke someone, all you need is a body with arms and legs and a partner and you will be good enough to beat an average BJJ practitioner - and I know that is simply not true. Once again your complete lack of understanding astounds me.

Yes you have, and I find them even more hilarious when you try to explain it. I yearn for the day I see the video of your class practicing that technique. I bet you guys have one guy coming in for the tackle, and another student karate chopping them in the back of the head, and the tackling student collapses in front of you.

1) I am yet to see ANY video of YOU doing ANYTHING despite numerous requests by me, maybe after you post something credible I may show a video or two.
2) Only Karate has karate chops.
3) Only someone with little experience would chop the back of the head because that would be silly - the target is the back of the neck or base of the skull where the head meets the spine.
4) That is only one of a number of techniques and for a specific situation.
5) Students in my school will only collapse in front of me in that situation if I was to actually hit them there full force and then there would be less students to train with.
6) I taught students that on Friday, did not take a video though, so I guess you will just have to miss out.
7) We do not make videos of our regular training, if someone wants to find out how we train all they have to do is come to a class and see for themselves.

Do you go "Hee-Yah!" when you do the chop? That would be icing on the cake. :lol:

Are you 12 years old? Statements such as this only go to prove ignorance and immaturity.

Finally, and I'm sure I am not the only one who is wondering, did you escape from somewhere?

 

[The Last Legionary]

Seriously, grow up already children. Or are you incapable of discussing this topic without looking like colicky infants?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

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