MMA vs TMA

[MJS]

Not arguing that at all but when I ground train I put more focus on getting up. Now in a situation where I may be unfortunate enough to be taken to the ground by a seasoned grappler said person had best be prepared to be hit in the throat or have his eyes gouged.

I will say this based on my own experience. I can escape most grapplers that train with me within seconds. Reason being I don't train to stay on the ground grappling or fighting with them. I train to escape and get back to my feet.......

Ditto! This is something that I touched on when I first started posting in this thread. To each his own I suppose, but for me, I prefer to not prolong, if possible, my time on the ground, in the event I end up there.

 

[Hanzou]

No. Sorry. This is wrong. You will not be able to reach my throat under high mount, and further, if you try I'd likely be able to break your wrist without compromising my position at all. In fact, it is very likely that without a lot of experience in that position, you will panic when you realize how difficult it is to breathe and how limited your movement really is. I see it all the time. You really don't know how sucky that position is until you've got someone competent doing it to you.

Just to piggy back off of this; You also don't realize how much energy you exert trying to get out of that position if you're in panic mode. You're flopping around trying to get out of guard, and the guy on top is just sitting there pounding you like a piece of hamburger meat. Open up your defense to try to throat jab, you get a fist in your face, and your head is bouncing off the concrete. Try to grab his arm to bite him, and another fist is going to knock your teeth out, and your head is probably going to bounce off the concrete again.

Again, your better off just learning ground fighting.

Not to nitpick, but if I have you mounted, you are not in a guard position. Having observed this thread from the beginning, I think that there is a lot of unnecessary conflict because people aren't being specific.

LoL! Whoops, thanks for the correction. :asian:

 

[MJS]

Regarding the posts/pics that Steve posted...I have to concur...being the mount, especially the high mount, well...there's no other way to say it other than it sucks!!! LOL! It sucks enough in the regular mount, but once they get under your arms...hopefully luck is on your side or you're capable of shrimping, if possible, to change his position on you.

If the guy is sitting high, ie: upright, he'll easily be able to rain down strikes. The bottom guy most likely will not be able to reach the face, unless the top guy leans in...then you might have a chance to target the eyes, throat, etc.

I'm by far, not an expert grappler, but IMHO, I would say the best chance to target the eyes, throat, etc, would be when the grappler is making his initial contact. Not saying its impossible once you're on the ground, but if the guy knows what he's doing, it's not going to be easy.

Will every person in the street that you face, be an expert grappler? Probably not. However, due to the fact that Wrestling is taught in a lot of schools and colleges, in addition to MMA being popular, not to mention those 'wanna-bes' that would rather watch youtube and mimic what they see on the clip, in the backyard with their friends, it is possible that you could run into someone with some grappling experience, limited as it may be.

 

[Steve]

Just to piggy back off of this; You also don't realize how much energy you exert trying to get out of that position if you're in panic mode. You're flopping around trying to get out of guard, and the guy on top is just sitting there pounding you like a piece of hamburger meat. Open up your defense to try to throat jab, you get a fist in your face, and your head is bouncing off the concrete. Try to grab his arm to bite him, and another fist is going to knock your teeth out, and your head is probably going to bounce off the concrete again.

Again, your better off just learning ground fighting.

Not to nitpick, but if I have you mounted, you are not in a guard position. Having observed this thread from the beginning, I think that there is a lot of unnecessary conflict because people aren't being specific.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And who is better prepared for that scenario? An athlete, or a chubby person who does Kung Fu twice a week?

Since you don't seem to not have any idea what Kung Fu really s or how it trains I find your choice of words in your response rather ironic and your use of one video as proof of your argument is laughable but if this is how you want to play it

A successful sports based fighter who was not exactly svelte.

And since you are using one shot example that you think make your case

Non-sport martial artists that you seem to think are all chubby and only train a couple times a week, I am assuming in a class.... oh and these I believe you might be able to call Kung Fu people

Wing Chun - Jun Fan Gong Fu - Jeet Kune Do

Wing Chun

Xingyiquan

Taijiquan

Bajiquan

But regardless of all that your statement has nothing to do with what I originally said and it was a bad attempt at misdirection.

Both can train equally hard the only difference is what I previously stated....but I doubt you know that from first had experience on either side of this all to old and over done argument

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Steve sums up the facts pretty well, with regards to the feasibility of striking the throat from under the mount. I just want to add that this is not just armchair theorizing. We have the evidence of many, many MMA fights where throat strikes were legal. Yes, the current UFC rules disallow throat strikes. They didn't always do so. For the first 8 years or so of the UFC they were legal. (FYI - the rules were changed for political reasons to get the sport accepted, not because anyone was ever injured by a throat strike.) The rules for the Pride Fighting Championships allowed throat strikes. Numerous vale tudo contests and individual challenge matches in Brazil allowed throat strikes. Despite this, I don't believe there is a single instance in all these fights of someone effectively striking the throat from the bottom of the mount.

In addition to the evidence of all these fights, we have the experience from many, many, many rounds of sparring against all kinds of opponents in different positions on the ground. I'm not the toughest guy in the world. There are plenty of people out there from any art you can name who could easily kick my butt in a fair fight. Nevertheless, I can guarantee that if I get to start out mounted on top of you that you will not be able to effectively strike my throat from that position. Maybe you could do it against someone who has no idea of how to grapple - but why would someone like that ever be on top of you in the first place?

BTW - the throat is a perfectly cromulent target in self-defense. If you can land a clean, solid shot on the throat it might be a fight-ender. That does not mean it's a magical "touch this and you win" button.

 

[K-man]

Yeah, eye gouges and throat shots aren't going to help you against a seasoned grappler who has a dominant position. You start trying to gouge his eyes, he'll start banging your head into the concrete.

:BSmeter:

 

[Hanzou]

Since you don't seem to not have any idea what Kung Fu really s or how it trains I find your choice of words in your response rather ironic and your use of one video as proof of your argument is laughable but if this is how you want to play it



And since you are using one shot example that you think make your case

Non-sport martial artists that you seem to think are all chubby and only train a couple times a week, I am assuming in a class.... oh and these I believe you might be able to call Kung Fu people

Where did I say that all non-sport martial artists are chubby and only train a couple times a week?

What I'm saying is that if you're in a sport MA and compete, you're more likely to be in shape than someone who does non-competitive MA.

Which is why you see so many vids of ripped boxers, wrestlers, and Bjj types vs. skinny or flabby traditional martial artists. Part of the reason why the latter loses is because many of them don't compete, and are simply not in shape. Obviously this isn't the case in all situations.

 

[SENC-33]

It's really pointless to set up these hypotheticals with people you don't even know on a forum. Whether or not I can or can't get to your throat makes little difference.......If you train to fight on the ground that's fine enough by me and it may very well be deadly for you as long as there is nobody else around to kick your skull in.

My ground training is comprised of getting out of a bad situation and back on my feet as quickly as possible and IMO that focus will serve me better in the situations I am more likely to find myself in outside of the training gym.

 

[K-man]

To sum it up and for the sake of not wanting to get into a pissing contest.....Ground fighting defense is secondary to me. YES you should train for it but your are better off focusing on how best to get up and back on your feet as quickly as possible. I would treat any situation of being taken to the ground as a dangerous one with the potential of mutiple attackers being a real possibility. That isn't a situation you desire to be in.

The problem is, Hanzou has never trained RBSD like Systema, Krav, MCMAC or a TMA. Even when you show him RB training he ignores it. He cannot comprehend that some training is to disable or kill and some is purely for fun/sport. To intentionally go to the ground when that is not required is just plain dumb. Staying on the ground when you have the chance to regain your feet is dumber still. To think a sport fighter will not be subjected to disabling strikes because of his sport training is fairyland when his opponent specialises in disabling techniques.

 

[Steve]

It's really pointless to set up these hypotheticals with people you don't even know on a forum. Whether or not I can or can't get to your throat makes little difference.......If you train to fight on the ground that's fine enough by me and it may very well be deadly for you as long as there is nobody else around to kick your skull in.

My ground training is comprised of getting out of a bad situation and back on my feet as quickly as possible and IMO that focus will serve me better in the situations I am more likely to find myself in outside of the training gym.

Personally, I think it's great if you have found a school you enjoy where your training is suiting your needs. However, your suggestion that you could gouge my eyes or strike my throat from under mount is an indication that your ground training might not be as complete as you believe.

I know that this has been brought up, but I feel like it's important to acknowledge, though, that most of us are not going to be getting into fights and the chances that any of us will ACTUALLY have to use our martial arts in a real fight are slim. And, further, if you are getting into fights routinely (and aren't a professional combat athlete, a soldier or LEO), you might want to rethink your lifestyle.

What I'm trying to say is, if you think your training is adequate for you, great. More power to you. But don't confuse that with expertise in anything other than what you specifically do. In other words, if you train kyokushin karate, does that make you a self defense expert? No. It makes you a kyokushin karate expert. Same with Ninjutsu or whatever you train in. My opinion is that there is really no such thing as a self defense "expert." It's too vague a term to be useful.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Where did I say that all non-sport martial artists are chubby and only train a couple times a week?

What I'm saying is that if you're in a sport MA and compete, you're more likely to be in shape than someone who does non-competitive MA.

Which is why you see so many vids of ripped boxers, wrestlers, and Bjj types vs. skinny or flabby traditional martial artists. Part of the reason why the latter loses is because many of them don't compete, and are simply not in shape. Obviously this isn't the case in all situations.

Sorry, you did not actually use the word "all" but by your posted video and response it is not to much of a stretch to come to that conclusion

And who is better prepared for that scenario? An athlete, or a chubby person who does Kung Fu twice a week?

...and ripped does not always translate into good fighter...see George Forman...but again I doubt you have much experience on either side of this argument... and I have had my share of arm chair MAists over the years on MT so I'm out of this because honestly you are not worth my time..... zàijiàn huā quán xìu tǔi"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My ground training is comprised of getting out of a bad situation and back on my feet as quickly as possible and IMO that focus will serve me better in the situations I am more likely to find myself in outside of the training gym.

I have absolutely no problem with that. If you aren't preparing to fight in the cage, then that is all the ground training you will probably ever need. I'm just pointing out that trying to strike the throat of someone who is mounted on you is not a particularly effective approach to getting out of the bad situation and back to your feet. There are techniques which are much more reliable for that purpose.

 

[SENC-33]

The problem is, Hanzou has never trained RBSD like Systema, Krav, MCMAC or a TMA. Even when you show him RB training he ignores it. He cannot comprehend that some training is to disable or kill and some is purely for fun/sport. To intentionally go to the ground when that is not required is just plain dumb. Staying on the ground when you have the chance to regain your feet is dumber still. To think a sport fighter will not be subjected to disabling strikes because of his sport training is fairyland when his opponent specialises in disabling techniques.

Agree.....I have enough real world experience and have seen too many people get sent to the hospital from fighting on the ground. It's a foolish strategy to go there deliberately.

 

[SENC-33]

I have absolutely no problem with that. If you aren't preparing to fight in the cage, then that is all the ground training you will probably ever need. I'm just pointing out that trying to strike the throat of someone who is mounted on you is not a particularly effective approach to getting out of the bad situation and back to your feet. There are techniques which are much more reliable for that purpose.

Yes and I pointed out that my first approach is to get up quickly. If however I can't get back up for whatever reason I can and will look for any opportunity to get to the throat or eyes and it can be done especially when your well being is at stake.

 

[Steve]

Agree.....I have enough real world experience and have seen too many people get sent to the hospital from fighting on the ground. It's a foolish strategy to go there deliberately.

really? What do you do in order for you to see so many people in real life altercations? It just seems unlikely that you would see so many fights that you haven't just seen some people fight on the ground... but have seen "too many" get sent to the hospital for it. The implications here are troubling, if true.

 

[SENC-33]

really? What do you do in order for you to see so many people in real life altercations? It just seems unlikely that you would see so many fights that you haven't just seen some people fight on the ground... but have seen "too many" get sent to the hospital for it. The implications here are troubling, if true.

I was a bouncer and doorman for over a decade. I also contracted with event organizers and concert promoters. I was involved in it every weekend.......

 

[Hanzou]

Yes and I pointed out that my first approach is to get up quickly. If however I can't get back up for whatever reason I can and will look for any opportunity to get to the throat or eyes and it can be done especially when your well being is at stake.

Why don't you just do this;

 

[Steve]

I was a bouncer and doorman for over a decade. I also contracted with event organizers and concert promoters. I was involved in it every weekend.......

Ah. Makes sense, I guess. So, is it fair to say that alcohol was a contributing factor?

Here's a question for the group at large. Do any RBSD guys here train drunk? I mean, when are we most likely to get into a fight? Answer: When we've had too much to drink and aren't behaving properly. So, how realistic can your training be if you're not schnockered at least a little?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes and I pointed out that my first approach is to get up quickly. If however I can't get back up for whatever reason I can and will look for any opportunity to get to the throat or eyes and it can be done especially when your well being is at stake.

If you are mounted, there are several effective methods for escaping the position and getting back to your feet quickly. I could teach you the basics of what you need to know in just a few classes. (Of course, it takes time and practice to get really good at those basics, especially against a skilled opponent.)

Trying to attack the eyes or throat from underneath the mount is not an effective tactic and will very likely get you hurt.