Misuse of Titles, and Good Ol Boy Rankings

[The Last Legionary]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• Being promoted by ones students.
• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• Being given rank without testing.
• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

 

[tshadowchaser]

1. soke boards they suck and are in it for the money and I personally have little use for them even if I have received unsolicited applications to join their ranks.

2. This is a hard one. I belonged to a group that the GM only claimed 5th degree and it took much talking by the students and some high ranking people from other systems to get him to accept 10th and give the organization room for members to grow in rank

3. absolutely NOT if I have not studied the system what the hell am I doing with rank in it

4. been there done that but who was I to argue with my instructor and the head of the system. Also what tests are really given to the upper ranks of most organizations

5. I have no trouble testing in front of a board made up of higher ranks in the organization I am testing in and people from other systems that can challenge my general knowledge however one made up of all non organizational members is just wrong as they would have no knowledge of what I do or ability to tell if it was presented the way it was supposed to be within my organisation

 

[terryl965]

LL all I can say is all of my ranks are and was done by my peers, so I only except that from other as well. I do not put much stock into honorary titles. I myself would never except anything I did not earn.

 

[jks9199]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• Being promoted by ones students.
• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• Being given rank without testing.
• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

"Soke board" titles and identifications are worth only what the group making them is worth... It seems like too many of these are "authentification mills" that will happily certify whatever so long as your check clears. But that doesn't mean all of them are... Though I don't know why you would want a Japanese title if you're not in a Japanese art...

Promotion by students is a different matter. If the students identify you as grand master, chief instructor, or whatever... who better to judge that? And sometimes it is appropriate for the students to recognize the rank of the chief instructor... especially if there's no one else to do it.

I've posted my view on rank in styles you haven't trained... It's silly.

Promotion without a formal test? Who cares? I didn't have a formal test until black belt; for many years, we didn't have formal tests for advancement as a black belt. Now we do... Does that mean that someone promoted a year before the change is less valid than someone a year after? In the end, there is no objective ranking in the martial arts. Rank only has meaning within the ranking entity. A black belt in one style may or may not have equal knowledge to a black belt in a different style...

Testing in front of a board of people not from your style? That's a different issue. I could see close systems helping each other out this way (maybe Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do or several of the Japanese styles that share many of the same forms with each other) if there aren't sufficient people available to test from that style that can be gathered in a reasonable manner. Especially for under belt testing. But not something like a Chinese stylist evaluating a Japanese stylist.

There is a variant on that which I don't have a problem with. That's simply inviting a respected member of another style to sit with the testing panel, and even offer opinions -- but the actual promotion and evaluation is from members of that style. For example, I have some acquaintances in Isshinryu Karate; if they invited me to sit with their grading panel, I'd be honored. But I wouldn't want to even try to say whether that person is qualified to advance... That's for their school/graders to decide. I'm just lending "weight" or "presence."

 

[Jai]

I would never accept a rank or title I did not earn. Whenever I have changed MA styles I have started out as a White Belt. I feel that being pushed ahead for knowing another art puts undue pressure on a person. Expectations are high enough as it is without the added rank and title.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.

I have a low opinion of those who misuse ranks and titles from other cultures, or who make huge leaps of logic to justify their misuse. (IE my instructor studied karate so it's ok for me to use a Japanese title). I agree with those who hold a dim view on such boards, having been offered rank and title from several in the past, provided my check cleared.

• Being promoted by ones students.

I disagree with student's promoting instructors, 'cross rankings', or such nonsense.

• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.

I wouldn't accept rank in an art I don't study or practice. I've got issues with those who do or would.

• Being given rank without testing.

My position has been that I would not accept any rank I didn't actually test for. I've got issues with those who do or would.

• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

I feel if you're going to test for rank in an art, the board doing the ranking should consist of ranked practitioners of the same art. Where ranks are not equal or greater, experience should also be considered, such as legitimate ranks in other arts or styles.

 

[Twin Fist]

the reality is that until recently, not many styles (which is to say, pretty much none) had ANY tests for any ranks after about 4th

They didnt need to have a 'test" for 5th or higher because:
1) damned near no one ever got that high
2) it was all based on teaching anyway


so getting a rank you havnt tested for? until the last 20 years or so, no one EVER tested for anything past 2nd or 3rd anyway

You think Ed Parker tested after he left Hawaii? You think Chow tested after he got his BB cert from Mitose?

my point is, we shouldnt worry about that one. The tradition is actually that you DONT test after first. You just learn, and TEACH

Now, Soke boards? well on one hand they do serve a purpose, for those that have gone thier own way and started thier own systems. But there shouldnt be very many of those people.

getting tested by people not in your system? Read about Benny Urquidez's BB test sometime. They story goes that since he was only 15-16 at the time, his instructor called in all the instructors in town and let THEM test him. That way no one could give him grief over giving a BB to a 16 year old (which at the time, just wasnt done)

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• Being promoted by ones students.
• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• Being given rank without testing.
• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

They're all a bunch of jokers.

 

[Cirdan]

They're all a bunch of jokers.

Yes

 

[harlan]

Gotta start somewhere. I mean, Toguchi (Goju) stated clearly in his books that after Chojun Miyagi passed away...they, the remaining students, awarded BB's to each other.

It's really the veracity of the rating board that counts. I mean, if you got a 5th Dan from some internet board, vs. a regular BB from your own teacher...which would matter the most to you...or to the people who know about your training?

Fact is, sooner or later, the people that matter will know the difference.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

They're all a bunch of jokers.

I agree!

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• Being promoted by ones students.
• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• Being given rank without testing.
• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

I am not sure how to answer this.

I know that there are some who have been recognized as MASTERS of FMA by the Kenpo gathering of eagles. And this person is one of the major complainers about those you have recently been talking about.

So, until I can confirm your identity, in person or on the phone (* 248-467-9454 or I can call you at my cost *) I really do not wish to have any discourse with you.

Thanks

 

[MJS]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• Being promoted by ones students.
• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• Being given rank without testing.
• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

1) Soke boards....want nothing to do with them. Sorry, but I cant see having a group of people, many who may not even do the same art, testing me for a rank. Its a way to make a quick buck and hand out rank. Why would I want a TKD guy, a Judo guy, a Kali guy, and a BJJ guy, testing me for rank in Kenpo? Do they know Kenpo? If they do, are they certified to rank me? You want rank...get it the old fashion way....hard work, blood, sweat and tears!

2) No. Why would I want someone who is lower ranked than me, testing me for a high rank? If my teacher suddenly passed on, and there was no other person left to rank me, I'd do one of two things. I'd either stay at that rank for the rest of my time or find a group in the same art, and test with them. In other words, if you're a Kenpo student, find a group, such as Tatum, join his group and when the time is right, test under him. At least you have a solid umbrella to be under.

3) WHy would anyone want that? So they could have another fancy cert. to hang on the wall? And what if someone asks about that art, what if they ask you to teach them that art. What are you going to say? Sorry, but I want to work and earn what I have, not have it handed to me or some honorary deal.

4) There comes a time once you reach a certain rank, usually in the upper black belt levels, where its not so much a physical test, but what you've given back. So in this case, if you're giving back, ie: continuing to pass on your knowledge, giving back to your community, etc. that would be the only time I'd say that would be ok. But to be given a black belt without testing for it...no way.

5) See #1.

 

[TimoS]

• The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.

Useless rank by useless people to useless people

• Being promoted by ones students.

My previous instructor did this. We effectively gave him 8. dan when he split away from his previous style. He was 6. dan at the moment. I wasn't totally happy with it, but I saw the necessity of it. After all, there wasn't anybody who could've promoted him

• Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.

Useless rank by useless people to useless people

• Being given rank without testing.

I've seen this happen, albeit at lower ranks (1. dan max), but in all these cases the instructor who gave the rank knew very well what the skills of these people were.

• "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

In some cases I have no problem with this. An example: it is my understanding that in okinawan karate the highest ranks are given by a panel comprised of other very high ranking karateka. Do they know the system of the one testing? No, not really, although they probably know enough.

 

[Twin Fist]

Peter Urban
Ed parker

both these guys were promoted by thier students

same for Larry tatum
same for Mike Pick
same for paul mills
same for Robert Trias
Same for Chuck Norris


yeah, those guys were/are total posers...........

 

[jim777]

My brother's Shotokan teacher does not test anyone over Shodan anymore, he simply awards them rank when he feels they have earned it. My brother was promoted in class one day with a quick, "You are now Sandan". He was Shodan for 17 years, and out of the blue he was Sandan! Don't get me wrong, he definitely deserved it (at least), but his teacher is old school (he studied under Funakoshi Sensei and later his son as the son of an American officer in post war Japan) and may be getting a bit 'older school' as the days go by . So, for the granting of ranks without testing, there are definitely times when it is acceptable in my book.

 

[Sukerkin]

I've always been ambivalent about the nature and utility of 'rank' in the martial arts in general, let alone when what might be termed 'dubious' practices come into it.

Some of the things in the OP I can see coming to pass through necessity - such as the students elevating the teacher or a panel not being fully made up of senior grades in the art being tested - but some of the others are really not acceptable.

 

[Archangel M]

Just a question, how many levels of belt rankings are truly necessary? It seems to me that the constant expansion of rank structures has more to do with "oneupmanship" than with organization. Arent some of these Bujinkan orgs up to some extreme levels now? You have student ranks, then instructors, than someone who administers multiple instructors. I would think that instructors would need a basic, intermediate, advanced level. And the person overseeing multiple instructors would only need one rank. Over them all could be the head of the system.

Thoughts?

 

[Senjojutsu]

Just a question, how many levels of belt rankings are truly necessary? It seems to me that the constant expansion of rank structures has more to do with "oneupmanship" than with organization. Arent some of these Bujinkan orgs up to some extreme levels now? You have student ranks, then instructors, than someone who administers multiple instructors. I would think that instructors would need a basic, intermediate, advanced level. And the person overseeing multiple instructors would only need one rank. Over them all could be the head of the system.

Thoughts?

So much of that is true. I know there are variations to this, I am sure ex-Army guys on here could correct/improve this ditty below.

Maybe I got some of this from Stormin’ Norman’s autobiography – but here was an anecdote about the tradition-bound hierarchy known as the US Army and stars (General ranks):

Your first star is a true career accomplishment – of which few officers even obtain.

Your second star is the Army’s way of telling the world it didn’t make a mistake when giving you that first star.

Your third star means you have truly arrived at the corporation known as the US Army - you now have the power.

The fourth general star really doesn’t mean that much more responsibility – it just helps out when lining up in buffet lines and scheduling golf tee times.

If only the Martial Arts could keep it this simple.

 

[Brian Johns]

I'm curious what the opinion is here towards the following:

• (1) The non-Japanese "Soke" who was knighted by some "Soke" board, rank mill or self-declared "Head Of Family" group.
• (2) Being promoted by ones students.
• (3) Being given a high rank in an art you don't study or have had no previous rank in.
• (4) Being given rank without testing.
• (5) "Testing" in front of a board not composed of practitioners of your own art. Exp: Testing for a TKD rank when no one on the board studies TKD.

(1) Don't like it.

(2) Very mixed feelings about this issue.

(3) I would not accept rank in an art I don't study or have had no previous rank.

(4) I would not feel comfortable accepting rank without testing. Put it this way, I would feel a greater sense of accomplishment if I earned that rank.

(5) Nope.