Mind Control and Free Will

Makalakumu

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Take a look at the Wikipedia entry from Mind Control. Lots of interesting stuff here.

What do you think? Is mind control possible? Is any subversion of free will possible? Do you think there are organizations that actively seek to mind control individuals? If so, who? How?

Again, lots of stuff on this subject. My particular favorite is this...;)

www.stopabductions.com

;)

Satire aside, what do you think about the former?
 

Bigshadow

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IMHO

Propaganda, whether created by our government, their government, corporations, religious organizations, etc, is mind control.

Controlling public opinion through media (movies, sitcoms, etc) is mind control.

Triggering someone's natural human responses by acting a certain way is mind control.

Mind control happens all the time.

Who does it? People, governments, corporations, religious organizations, anyone really.

Oh but don't ever forget it is the cabal of 6 men in a dimly lit smoke filled room who calls all the shots :rofl:
 

Flatlander

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upnorthkyosa said:
What do you think? Is mind control possible? Is any subversion of free will possible? Do you think there are organizations that actively seek to mind control individuals? If so, who? How?
I believe (though I've no evidence to support it) that the very fundamentalist muslim schools in the middle east are growing suicide bombers. I think that they keep the students so sheltered, they are left with no outside mental stimulus.

I also agree that gov't propaganda is a form of mind control. China's deal with Google to omit certain search terms is a form of that, IMO.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Bigshadow said:
Oh but don't ever forget it is the cabal of 6 men in a dimly lit smoke filled room who calls all the shots :rofl:

According to the Rule of Five, it has to be only five. ;)

Okay, so if all of these are forms of mind control, would you say that they also equate to a subversion of free?

A striking thought that your post inspired (implies IMO) is that humans may be hardwired to be mind controlled. So much of that stuff is so common that it is mundane. If mind control is that pervasive, then it would be unnatural to not be mind controlled.
 
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Makalakumu

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Flatlander said:
I believe (though I've no evidence to support it) that the very fundamentalist muslim schools in the middle east are growing suicide bombers. I think that they keep the students so sheltered, they are left with no outside mental stimulus.

Here is some theoretical support for this...

<H3>Lifton brainwashing model
Psychiatrist Robert Lifton described in his 1961 book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China eight coercive methods which, he says, are able to change the minds of individuals without their knowledge and were used with this purpose on prisoners of war in Korea and China. [1] These include
  • milieu control (controlled relations with the outer world)
  • mystic manipulation (the group has a higher purpose than the rest)
  • confession (confess past and present sins)
  • self-sanctification through purity (pushing the individual towards a not-attainable perfection)
  • aura of sacred science (beliefs of the group are sacrosanct and perfect)
  • loaded language (new meanings to words, encouraging black-white thinking)
  • doctrine over person (the group is more important than the individual)
  • dispensed existence (insiders are saved, outsiders are doomed)
In his 1999 book Destroying the world to save it: Aum Shinrikyo, Apocalyptic Violence and the New Global Terrorism, he concluded, though, that thought reform was possible without violence or physical coercion.
Edgar Schein, who investigated similar programs in China concluded in his book Coercive Persuasion that physical coercion was an important feature of brainwashing.
[edit]

Margaret Singer's conditions for mind control

Psychologist Margaret Singer, using the work of Lifton, described in her book "Cults in our Midst" six conditions, which would, she says, create an atmosphere where thought reform is possible. [2]. Singer sees no need for physical coercion or violence.
  • controlling a person's time and environment, leaving no time for thought
  • creating a sense of powerlessness, fear and dependency
  • manipulating rewards and punishments to suppress former social behaviour
  • manipulating rewards and punishments to elicit the desired behaviour
  • creating a closed system of logic which makes dissenters feel as if something was wrong with them
  • keeping recruits unaware about any agenda to control or change them
[edit]

BITE model of Steven Hassan

Psychologist and cult counselor Steven Hassan, using the research of Singer and Lifton and the cognitive dissonance theory of Leon Festinger, describes in his 2000 book Releasing the Bonds the BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotion) model, which explains mind control as a combination of control over behavior, information, thought and emotions. According to Hassan, the BITE model dispenses with any required environment control, and its effects can be achieved when the control mechanisms create overall dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. [3]

Hassan's critics argue that Steve Hassan uses the term "mind control" (for what they see as essentially a strong form of influence) only to justify the forcible extraction of believers from religious groups. They argue that Hassan does not merely say that fraudulent salesmanship persuaded the believers; he claims that these groups literally take away a victim's freedom of mind. For this reason an involuntary procedure must operate in order to "rescue" a "victim" from a "destructive cult", for "victims" may not realize their victimhood status and may resist rescuing.

Hassan, after taking part in a number of deprogrammings in the late 1970s, distances himself from this practice and the criminal activities associated with that occupation and refers to his method as the "strategic interaction approach" or SIA. He claims that this approach is a goal-oriented, therapeutic course of action that can be initiated and implemented by motivated relatives or friends, in which they learn how to work together to help "awaken" the cult member to the pervasiveness of the group's alleged control over a former member's life, after which the person can leave the cult, regaining a sense of personal power, integrity, and direction.

Considering the above, a lot of other organizations could be considered to be cult-like or mind controlling...
</H3>
I also agree that gov't propaganda is a form of mind control. China's deal with Google to omit certain search terms is a form of that, IMO.

Propaganda, according to the theories above, would be part of a mind controlling system. It is basically information control. I'm not sure if it can subvert someones free will, but I do think that it can shape the actions dictated by someones free will. Either way, that is still mind control, IMO.
 

HKphooey

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Anyone remember the drive-in movies of the past. They used to have subliminal messages for food concessions in the intros and intermission. One of my professors for Communications brought in a pretty funny video from the early 70's. When you slowed it down, the was 1/100th of a frame with a picture of popcorn, then another with candy and so on...

Also, one of the major retailers got busted for piping subliminal messaging throught out the stores music system.

It has been around for awhile. :)
 

Bigshadow

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upnorthkyosa said:
According to the Rule of Five, it has to be only five. ;)
OK, five it is! :D


upnorthkyosa said:
Okay, so if all of these are forms of mind control, would you say that they also equate to a subversion of free?
Yes, I suppose. Subversion is there for sure. Depends on what freedom you are talking about. It is generally always trying to short circuit some sort of freedom, whether it is freedom to make an educated decision or the freedom of choices to choose from.


upnorthkyosa said:
A striking thought that your post inspired (implies IMO) is that humans may be hardwired to be mind controlled. So much of that stuff is so common that it is mundane. If mind control is that pervasive, then it would be unnatural to not be mind controlled.
Yes, I believe there always some level of mind control happening with everyone, just some people are more resistant to it than others. However, everyone has a trigger that can be manipulated.

Speaking of things being so common that it is mundane, reminds me of a saying that it is much easier to take the poison in something delicious than by itself (or something to that effect). That is why the media is SOOOOO EFFECTIVE! Many discount things as just entertainment, but they don't realize the seeds have planted and that is all that matters.
 

Bigshadow

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upnorthkyosa said:
I'm not sure if it can subvert someones free will, but I do think that it can shape the actions dictated by someones free will. Either way, that is still mind control, IMO.
I believe it can. By controlling information, one can control choices, opinions, problems, solutions, etc. Did you ever read Orwell's 1984?

What you quoted is the same stuff.

The memory hole
Newspeak
Doublespeak
The daily 2-minutes of hate (of someone they don't even know)


Anyway, I guess I believe it can short circuit free will.

I will also add... Just because we are in the United States of America, don't think for a second, that we are not manipulated and controlled. We are by no means immune or exempt.


Anyone remember the Hoffner Lenses from the movie They Live?
 

Bigshadow

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HKphooey said:
Anyone remember the drive-in movies of the past. They used to have subliminal messages for food concessions in the intros and intermission. One of my professors for Communications brought in a pretty funny video from the early 70's. When you slowed it down, the was 1/100th of a frame with a picture of popcorn, then another with candy and so on...

Also, one of the major retailers got busted for piping subliminal messaging throught out the stores music system.

It has been around for awhile. :)
You know I am not sure how effective that is. It never made me want to buy popcorn.... But then again, I don't like popcorn. :D

I think that is one of those triggers that can be manipulated with people. Chocolate on the other hand would get my attention :D
 
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Makalakumu

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Here is another interesting peice to this puzzle. Especially considering the fact that many of the participants in this discussion feel that mind control is pervasive...

MKULTRA

Project MKULTRA (also known as MK-ULTRA) was the code name for a CIA mind-control research program that began in the 1950s[1], and continued until the late 1960s[2]. There is much published evidence that the project involved not only the use of drugs to manipulate persons, but also the use of electronic signals to alter brain functioning.[3]
It was first brought to wide public attention by the U.S. Congress (in the form of the Church Committee) and a presidential commission (known as the Rockefeller Commission) (see Revelation below) and also to the U.S. Senate.

Because most of the MKULTRA records were deliberately destroyed in 1972 by order of the Director at that time, Richard Helms, it is impossible to have a complete understanding of the more than 150 individually funded research projects sponsored by MKULTRA and related CIA programs. [8]

Does anyone think that this researched stopped? I know this approaching "crazy" territory, but it is instructive to remember that this stuff really did happen.

Here is another aspect of this...

MKDELTA
MKNAOMI

Now THAT is some crazy stuff...too bad the documents were destroyed...
 

HKphooey

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Hey, everytime I see the Bud frogs I want to drink beer. Oh wait, I think it is pretty much anything I see makes me want a beer. :)
 
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Makalakumu

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HKphooey said:
Hey, everytime I see the Bud frogs I want to drink beer. Oh wait, I think it is pretty much anything I see makes me want a beer. :)

Those are the Beer Fnords...;)
 
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Makalakumu

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More official mind control programs...

Project Monarch
Project Artichoke

It was an offensive program of mind control that gathered together the intelligence divisions of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and FBI. In addition, the scope of the project was outlined in a memo dated January 1952 that stated, "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?"

A couple of things...

1. I think the boldfaced part is what most people would consider "real" mind control. Is that possible?
2. Does this surprise anyone else?
 

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I agree that there are various levels of receptivity to mind control. I'd also agree with the comment that this receptivity might be hard-coded but I'd take that a step further and suggest that most of us unconsciously seek mind control as often we may know [or have an inkling of] the truth beyond the propaganda but at the same time know that the truth would complicate our thinking and may not suit our purposes.

To play devil's advocate, it wouldn't suit us in western societies to learn the bold fact that 95% of Palestinians or Iranians for example, really quite like us westerners. It wouldn't suit us as employees of pharmaceutical companies to know that our products are potentially lethal and that the homeopathic solutions are far more cost effective and viable for patients. Like I say, just hypotheticals I'm calling off the top of my head but what I mean is, depending upon our particular "group", our own set of mind controls will be the easy option and will constitute the path of least resistance. Why fight it?

The homogenization possible through common mind controls [take a little information here, add a little information there, twist a fact and create a fiction] helps us to form such cliques, groups and entire social orders. As humans we like to be part of social orders, we like uniformity and to a large extent, conformity. I think therefore that many of us are unconsciously happy with the mind controls under which we live our daily lives.

Respects!
 

Bigshadow

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MartialIntent said:
and will constitute the path of least resistance. Why fight it?

I think therefore that many of us are unconsciously happy with the mind controls under which we live our daily lives.

Respects!
Agreed! It is far easier to just follow the herd. Humans naturally want to think nice thoughts and be happy. To think something contrary to "public opinion" sets one apart from the herd. This is distressing and not many care to do that. With this in mind, it is safe to say that the majority doesn't always constitute what is best and public opinion is not always right. For many just those two ideas alone is too hard to swallow.


Think about this... The one(s) who control the media wields a power far greater than any standing army or government.
 

SFC JeffJ

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First, let me adjust my tin foil beanie.

I don't think there is a major government in the world that isn't funnelling at least some resources into forms of mind control. The idea of it is just too appealing. People in power want to keep it, so why not try to control the masses both inside and outside of your border?

Anyways, everyone knows what those cell towers are really for.

Jeff
 

Kreth

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Subliminal messaging Give Kreth does not positive rep exist.
 

Cryozombie

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JeffJ said:
Anyways, everyone knows what those cell towers are really for.

Jeff

Yes. Me to climb to make 100 bucks an hour.

:D
 

MartialIntent

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Bigshadow said:
Agreed! It is far easier to just follow the herd. Humans naturally want to think nice thoughts and be happy.
Yes... I understand. Think nice thoughts and be happy. Think nice thoughts and be happy... ;)
Bigshadow said:
To think something contrary to "public opinion" sets one apart from the herd. This is distressing and not many care to do that.
There's more to that point too and it's that the proletariat are so conditioned / controlled that it's that same herd that can reign in the dissenters themselves. It's a wonderful self-imposing form of control - how many times have you heard those with contrary viewpoints branded as insensitive, incompetent or plain stupid?
Bigshadow said:
With this in mind, it is safe to say that the majority doesn't always constitute what is best and public opinion is not always right.
Absolutely correct. The majority will always act in the majority interest - great for the herd but leaving the non-conformists swimming against the tide.
Bigshadow said:
For many just those two ideas alone is too hard to swallow.
Oh come on now, just one little spoonful of your medicine. you know you want to...
Bigshadow said:
Think about this... The one(s) who control the media wields a power far greater than any standing army or government.
Ah, but maybe the question is, who really controls the media? *mutters to self*

Respects!
 

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