Media Leave "South Park" Creators Out to Dry

[JDenver]

Why all the back bending effort to "respect" Islam when the same effort doesn't seem to be required for other peoples beliefs?

Fear of being beheaded in the street??

People are missing my point.

Since when have Christians ever cared how Jesus is portrayed? Never. As a community they've never made clear that you cannot depict Jesus in whatever way. Let's not pretend that the way Muslims practice their religion is the same as Christian. It isn't. It's a central issue to what we're talking about here. Western Christians, and Western people in general and probably on these boards, see everything through those eyes, have no patience, tolerance or even will to see another perspective. To do so is to 'alter the way you live', which is not at all what is really happening or really the point. Inevitably, folks bring it back to the most extreme examples, like the ugly threats and violence made by extremists, like that's the standard of Muslim faith or of arrogance.

Ridiculing people's faith seems ugly, and, yes, arrogant to me, as if you are a superior person for being atheist.

 

[Omar B]

There is only Crom.

Yes, Crom who only gives man life and free will then asks nothing from him.

 

[Big Don]

People are missing my point.

Since when have Christians ever cared how Jesus is portrayed? Never. As a community they've never made clear that you cannot depict Jesus in whatever way.

Possibly the single most ludicrous statement I've read in a while. Christians have ALWAYS complained about how Christ is portrayed, and when they do, people like you, trot out the "poor persecuted Christian..." sarcasm.

Let's not pretend that the way Muslims practice their religion is the same as Christian. It isn't.

Yeah, Baptists and Catholics have never blown themselves up because of liturgical differences...

It's a central issue to what we're talking about here. Western Christians, and Western people in general and probably on these boards, see everything through those eyes, have no patience, tolerance or even will to see another perspective.

interesting, we have to tolerate (and kow tow) to Muslim sensibilities, they don't have to tolerate anything?

To do so is to 'alter the way you live', which is not at all what is really happening or really the point. Inevitably, folks bring it back to the most extreme examples, like the ugly threats and violence made by extremists, like that's the standard of Muslim faith or of arrogance.

Ridiculing people's faith seems ugly, and, yes, arrogant to me, as if you are a superior person for being atheist.

Ridiculing people's faith seems ugly, and, yes, arrogant to me, as if you are a superior person for being atheist.

QFT, and yet, Bill Maher, made a movie, not long ago, that ridiculed anyone of any faith, yet, he was careful to focus his hatred on Christians, because they are less likely to try to kill you for offending them...

 

[Archangel M]

People are missing my point.

I get it clearly.

It's called hypocrisy.

 

[grydth]

People are missing my point.

Since when have Christians ever cared how Jesus is portrayed? Never. As a community they've never made clear that you cannot depict Jesus in whatever way. Let's not pretend that the way Muslims practice their religion is the same as Christian. It isn't. It's a central issue to what we're talking about here. Western Christians, and Western people in general and probably on these boards, see everything through those eyes, have no patience, tolerance or even will to see another perspective. To do so is to 'alter the way you live', which is not at all what is really happening or really the point. Inevitably, folks bring it back to the most extreme examples, like the ugly threats and violence made by extremists, like that's the standard of Muslim faith or of arrogance.

Ridiculing people's faith seems ugly, and, yes, arrogant to me, as if you are a superior person for being atheist.

Since the beginning. There's this Commandment: Thou shalt not take the Name of Thy Lord, Thy God in vain.... should clue most anyone in that an "art" exhibit entitled "Piss Christ" would be highly offensive. Who's kidding who here? Tell me that artist did not know, indeed intend, to offend devout Christians.

I would say that those who are blowing up or stabbing artists are the ones displaying a signal lack of "patience, tolerance".

Nobody here is telling Muslims to "Alter the way you live"... unless the way you live is to murder those you disagree with. No, I believe the point here is that they should not receive special media preferences and treatment..... and when they are offended they should turn the channel or walk out of the museum like everyone else is expected to.

 

[Ramirez]

ridiculing people's faith seems ugly, and, yes, arrogant to me, as if you are a superior person for being atheist.

How did atheists get dragged into this? Islam is our favorite whipping boy when it comes to demonstrating how blind adherence to religion can go wrong.

 

[Ramirez]

People are missing my point.

Since when have Christians ever cared how Jesus is portrayed? Never. As a community they've never made clear that you cannot depict Jesus in whatever way. Let's not pretend that the way Muslims practice their religion is the same as Christian. It isn't. It's a central issue to what we're talking about here. Western Christians, and Western people in general and probably on these boards, see everything through those eyes, have no patience, tolerance or even will to see another perspective. To do so is to 'alter the way you live', which is not at all what is really happening or really the point. Inevitably, folks bring it back to the most extreme examples, like the ugly threats and violence made by extremists, like that's the standard of Muslim faith or of arrogance.

Ridiculing people's faith seems ugly, and, yes, arrogant to me, as if you are a superior person for being atheist.

JD your statement is a bit extreme, Christians in the past have been extremely violent in practice of their religion.

However I do agree with your overall point.

Dan Brown didn't have a death sentence imposed on him by the pope for the Da Vinci Code the way Rushdie did for the Satanic Verses.

The Christ in Urine "art" had about 5 people show up in protest, the Danish cartoons of Mohammed caused clergy to be attacked , churches vandalized, riots in the street involving thousands ....somehow the irony of reacting like that to the Pope saying Islam is a violent religion didn't register with the rioters.

And so on....

 

[Bruno@MT]

No other religion has the central conceipt that their prophet be idolized so precisely. It has nothing to do with a double standard or with Christian victimization. I have no respect for death threats and intimidation. However, I do respect that in Muslim faith you should not portray Muhammed. Why should I disrespect their faith? Because I live in the West and feel like we, in the West, are right about everything?

Seems arrogant to me.

We may not be right about everything, but in the west we should be able to behave like is customary for westerners without having to bow to the sensitivities of every other nation on earth.

If I go to Japan I am expected to abide by Japanese customs to the best of my abilities. If I am on the mat I am expected to abide by the customs of the Genbukan organization because I agreed to it in the membership rules. Outside of that, I am free to ignore Japanese customs and live like a westerner.

When I went to tunesia, which is an Islamic country, I abided by the rules that were laid out, even though I did not agree, because I was a guest. And if muslims come over to my country, I expect the same of them. My country is a secular state with a constitution and a number of freedoms, where no religion is held above others, and no religion has any power to override freedoms rooted in the constitution. And if that is too bad, then those who have a problem with that are free to go to someplace that better fits their ideology.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not a religious person, if you wish to call me heathen then go ahead. Does not bother me one bit.

How I read it, I think Ken was backing up the rationality of your position rather than criticising.

 

[Sukerkin]

Nobody here is telling Muslims to "Alter the way you live"... unless the way you live is to murder those you disagree with. No, I believe the point here is that they should not receive special media preferences and treatment..... and when they are offended they should turn the channel or walk out of the museum like everyone else is expected to.

Quite so.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In a supposedly-secular society, no religion has any right to any more or less 'respect' than any other.

It is reasonable to want people to behave in ways that do not intentionally offend others, and polite people do that in common discourse. Most of us do not wear our prejudices and dislikes on our sleeves or tell everyone we know about what we can't stand upon meeting them. However, this is not to say that people haven't the right to do so. Asking for sensitivity and respect is one thing; requiring it is quite another. Politeness enforced with a stick is not politeness. Courtesy required by law is not courtesy. Respect rendered at the point of a gun is not respect. I can want people to have respect for each other's beliefs. Demanding it of them is out of the question.

In a free society, freedom is defined by the edges, not the middle. In other words, the boundaries are where we drive the stakes in and say 'this far and no farther'.

Artists explore boundaries. It's one of their functions, whether we agree with, understand, or appreciate their art.

I completely understand why many are angry that companies like Comedy Central cave to threats regarding depictions of Mohammad. Despite the fact that many Americans (myself included) have a distinct distaste for 'Piss Christ' and the like, we don't behead people for creating such dubious 'works of art'.

I also understand that there is a secondary force at work here; in addition to the righteous indignation over the fact that Islam is seen as getting special consideration that Christianity is not, there is also the usual compounding of all of Islam into one entity. "This is the way these people are," as it were.

When Fred Phelps displays "God Hates Fags" signs at the funerals of people who have died of AIDS, we (most of us, anyway) do not say that this is exemplary of how Christians are. We claim that Phelps' brand of Christianity is alien to us.

Yet when some Muslims object to South Park's depiction of Mohammad in a bear suit and suggest that violent deaths may be visited upon the creators of the series, some of us seem quick to say "this is the way these people are."

I would point out a simple fact. Islam represents 1.2 billion people on the planet. If all of them thought that the creators of South Park should be killed for depicting Mohammad in a bear suit, they'd be dead. Here in Detroit, we have the single largest population of Muslims in the USA. Not one riot. Not one protest. Not one insurrection.

Somehow, I do not think that the websites calling for death to the South Park creators is speaking for all of Islam. They're extremists, as are those who think "God Hates Fags" or that the entirety of a religion is responsible for the acts of a tiny minority.

 

[Omar B]

How I read it, I think Ken was backing up the rationality of your position rather than criticising.

Yeah, I know. I wear the badge of "heathen" or "heretic" or "blasphemer" with pride.

I said many times, though I am an atheist I with that religion stuff was real, because then I could worship Satan.

 

[zDom]

Yeah, I know. I wear the badge of "heathen" or "heretic" or "blasphemer" with pride.

I said many times, though I am an atheist I with that religion stuff was real, because then I could worship Satan.

And sometimes I wish that I could believe there is no God. Then I could embrace doing whatever I want without thought of consequence in an afterlife.

 

[Ken Morgan]

And sometimes I wish that I could believe there is no God. Then I could embrace doing whatever I want without thought of consequence in an afterlife.

So you’re only good because of the fear of retribution????

I’m good, simply because it’s the right thing to do.

 

[Empty Hands]

And sometimes I wish that I could believe there is no God. Then I could embrace doing whatever I want without thought of consequence in an afterlife.

Those who advance this argument specifically admit to being sociopaths.

Something to think about.

 

[Omar B]

And sometimes I wish that I could believe there is no God. Then I could embrace doing whatever I want without thought of consequence in an afterlife.

My sense of right, wrong and justice are not based upon fear of retribution or no making it to Heaven, Valhalla, Stovocore or Candyland. It's based upon rational ethics needed to live in a society with other people.

 

[Ken Morgan]

My sense of right, wrong and justice are not based upon fear of retribution or no making it to Heaven, Valhalla, Stovocore or Candyland. It's based upon rational ethics needed to live in a society with other people.

awwwooooo....Candyland....awwooooo

 

[Big Don]

Yeah, I know. I wear the badge of "heathen" or "heretic" or "blasphemer" with pride.

I said many times, though I am an atheist I with that religion stuff was real, because then I could worship Satan.

As an atheist, I don't think you can actually blaspheme, and you certainly can't be guilty of heresy.

 

[Omar B]

In the eyes of one who takes religion as absolute fact I'm sure they see it as blasphemy.

I wonder though, about this Muslim group who made the threats toward CC about the South park episode. Now that they have achieved their goal, I wonder exactly what kid of victory they think it is. I'm sure religions would rather recruit new members rather than scare people and think of them as insane. You cant more flies with honey than vinegar and all that jazz.

 

[Big Don]

OK, according to Dictionary.com: Blasphemy is impious utterance or action concerning god or sacred things, so, atheist can blaspheme.
Atheist CANNOT, however, be heretics.
a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.