Master's relationship to/arrangement with their student's school

[skribs]

Absolutely, it should have and could have happened before you left. That is on you.

He kept cancelling private lessons, ignored me in regular classes, and refused to teach me what was required for the curriculum. He cut my hours and started removing me from teaching.

It was absolutely not going to happen.

And that is not on me.

 

[HighKick]

He kept cancelling private lessons, ignored me in regular classes, and refused to teach me what was required for the curriculum. He cut my hours and started removing me from teaching.

It was absolutely not going to happen.

And that is not on me.

Be VERY specific: Why do you think he was being that way toward you?

 

[skribs]

Be VERY specific: Why do you think he was being that way toward you?

Because I told him I was moving away.

 

[HighKick]

Because I told him I was moving away.

Much more to this bad relationship.
You are very invested with him and keep going back. Doesn’t that speak very loudly that you need to repair the relationship. I have never heard you call him anything but master, so it sounds like you have respect for the guy.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Congratulations on passing your 4th Dan. Hopefully you enjoyed the day and the reward that goes with it.

Regardless of whether you will continue to have a relationship with this instructor or not, your MA is yours. You can decide to go on any path you like. Some paths will be easier and some will be more difficult. In all cases, you will need to be the engine of your success.

Good luck

 

[skribs]

Much more to this bad relationship.

He was a good teacher to the students, but a bad mentor to the instructors. He micromanaged. He would get petty and jealous if a student asked for help. The only times I ever got in trouble, it was right after he saw a student ask me for help with something after class. He was jealous that the student didn't come to him with the question. Which is really silly, because he's telling them to listen to me and that as an instructor I should be the one to go to them.

I told him at one point that I wanted to cross-train in BJJ. He told me that if I wanted to start learning BJJ, I would have to quit his school. Not just stop teaching, but quit entirely. I was actually going to take him up on that, but the day I was going to turn in my 2-weeks notice with him was March 16, 2020. The day everything shut down for COVID. There were no BJJ schools open, so I figured I'd keep training in the meantime.

Back when I first started teaching, I had been with him for 3 years, and one of his former students was shocked that I had lasted so long already. He had a reputation for burning out instructors. And you know what? The instructor that replaced me in 2022 when I left, has already burnt out and quit. His next instructor is on her way out.

So your suggestion that I stick in a toxic relationship is very incorrect. I honestly should have been out of this relationship years ago. I was out of this relationship in 2022, but got pulled back in because he apologized for the way he treated us before we left. But I'm not going to get into the cycle of abuse - apology - abuse - apology.

When someone is abusing you (in this case, abuse of power), you don't stick in the relationship. You find the fastest possible way to leave. If a woman is being abused by her husband, you don't tell her to wait in the relationship until she's got enough kids from him, or something silly like that. You tell her to get out ASAP. Telling me to stay in a toxic environment just to get a piece of paper is one of the silliest things I've seen suggested on this thread.

 

[skribs]

I'll give you a specific story to talk about what I mean.

I had been teaching under him for 4 years at this point. I was a 3rd degree black belt. I was there for every class; 5 hours a day, 6 days a week (on top of my day job). My typical routine was that I help out with 4 classes and take the 5th. I wouldn't take any break during the 4 classes I was helping with, then I would take a quick break during the black belt class stretching and warmup to use the restroom and get some water. Usually I would get back at the end of stretches or the start of punches. My rationale was that I didn't want to waste his time and money (when he's paying me to be an instructor), but it was okay to waste a little bit of my time and money between classes. (Classes were back-to-back with no break, so the previous class ended at 7:50 and my class started at 7:50).

One night, a student comes up to me at the end of the previous class to ask a question. She wanted to practice on a heavy bag at home, and wanted to know if it was a good idea. My opinion, which was informed by the opinion of another instructor at my dojang and also an overwhelming majority opinion online, is that this is a great idea to reinforce proper technique. I told her its a good idea. Then took my break. When I got out of the restroom, the Master had already started into the technique portion of class. I went to get on the mat, and he very sternly told me to wait.

Then, he went over some of the 3rd degree testing material that I needed. He hadn't gone over it with me yet in class. None of the students on the mat needed it. They were all 1st or 2nd degree. He specifically had them learn something I needed while I stood on the sidelines. Then he had me come on the mat, and the rest of class we only worked on 1st degree material.

After that, he called me into his office. He questioned my loyalty to him, because I skipped part of my class. He questioned my ethics and integrity. I tried to explain what I said above (about respecting his time and using my time for the break). He explained that all the other instructors were on time. (The other instructors had been there for only 1-2 hours, and were not leading the class as I was). I finally drew it out of him that he wanted me to take my breaks at the end of the previous class, instead of at the start of my class.

Then he asked me what the student had asked me about. He told me that I was wrong to tell her to practice on a heavy bag, because of his past experience where students have had injuries and needed surgery (no details about it). That if a student asks a question and he hasn't told me the answer, I need to refer them to him instead of answering on my own. This is what confirmed for me my suspicion - he wasn't actually mad about me being a little late to class. If he was, he would have spoken up 4 years ago. He was jealous that a student went to me instead of him.

For the next 2 days, at the end of every class I was in, he publicly and sternly told me to take a break. After those two days, he called me back into his office, and said, "Do you understand now or do I need to keep telling you?"

I think he treats his instructors as the release from the frustrations he bottles up from the other students. And he can't take his ego being challenged. This was one of the incidents that is why I was planning on quitting, because he would do stuff like this. He wasn't physically abusive, but he was emotionally abusive and manipulative.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I'll give you a specific story to talk about what I mean.

I had been teaching under him for 4 years at this point. I was a 3rd degree black belt. I was there for every class; 5 hours a day, 6 days a week (on top of my day job). My typical routine was that I help out with 4 classes and take the 5th. I wouldn't take any break during the 4 classes I was helping with, then I would take a quick break during the black belt class stretching and warmup to use the restroom and get some water. Usually I would get back at the end of stretches or the start of punches. My rationale was that I didn't want to waste his time and money (when he's paying me to be an instructor), but it was okay to waste a little bit of my time and money between classes. (Classes were back-to-back with no break, so the previous class ended at 7:50 and my class started at 7:50).

One night, a student comes up to me at the end of the previous class to ask a question. She wanted to practice on a heavy bag at home, and wanted to know if it was a good idea. My opinion, which was informed by the opinion of another instructor at my dojang and also an overwhelming majority opinion online, is that this is a great idea to reinforce proper technique. I told her its a good idea. Then took my break. When I got out of the restroom, the Master had already started into the technique portion of class. I went to get on the mat, and he very sternly told me to wait.

Then, he went over some of the 3rd degree testing material that I needed. He hadn't gone over it with me yet in class. None of the students on the mat needed it. They were all 1st or 2nd degree. He specifically had them learn something I needed while I stood on the sidelines. Then he had me come on the mat, and the rest of class we only worked on 1st degree material.

After that, he called me into his office. He questioned my loyalty to him, because I skipped part of my class. He questioned my ethics and integrity. I tried to explain what I said above (about respecting his time and using my time for the break). He explained that all the other instructors were on time. (The other instructors had been there for only 1-2 hours, and were not leading the class as I was). I finally drew it out of him that he wanted me to take my breaks at the end of the previous class, instead of at the start of my class.

Then he asked me what the student had asked me about. He told me that I was wrong to tell her to practice on a heavy bag, because of his past experience where students have had injuries and needed surgery (no details about it). That if a student asks a question and he hasn't told me the answer, I need to refer them to him instead of answering on my own. This is what confirmed for me my suspicion - he wasn't actually mad about me being a little late to class. If he was, he would have spoken up 4 years ago. He was jealous that a student went to me instead of him.

For the next 2 days, at the end of every class I was in, he publicly and sternly told me to take a break. After those two days, he called me back into his office, and said, "Do you understand now or do I need to keep telling you?"

I think he treats his instructors as the release from the frustrations he bottles up from the other students. And he can't take his ego being challenged. This was one of the incidents that is why I was planning on quitting, because he would do stuff like this. He wasn't physically abusive, but he was emotionally abusive and manipulative.

Thanks for sharing this story. A few things ring true to me about being in a similar situation. If you look at this objectively when a little time has passed, you may start to realize that you are "getting a peak behind the curtain" and that your instructor is just a regular human being that puts his pants on one leg at time as most of us do. Not to minimize any of your thoughts or feelings but he is just a regular guy with his own foibles that happens to have 6 stripes on his belt. Yes, the number of stripes should start to represent a living standard of what all proponents should aspire if they continue to train as long as he has but in the end, a person cannot get away from themselves and their own very human tendencies to be human.

In my own situation, I have a very similar story and although it did make me a little angry to be treated this way, it is not really my circus and these are really not my monkeys. Having stepped away from the dojo I can see that it isn't running as smoothly as when I was there and they have decided to stop doing a tournament because there isn't anyone there interested or capable of organizing it. Part of me is quite sad to hear about how things are going but I am not in a space where I want to go back and pick up where I left off.

You may hear about how your old training hall is changing now that you are gone. Hopefully it will reinforce the impact that you had when you were there. Perhaps you will feel vindicated about all your complaints but I also hope you look back with a little compassion to see that he must also know that he is not perfect and that he is in the predicament he is in because of it.

 

[skribs]

You may hear about how your old training hall is changing now that you are gone. Hopefully it will reinforce the impact that you had when you were there.

There is a woman who trains at my old dojang who got her 3rd degree black belt last year. We went over some of those requirements while I was in town preparing for my 4th degree. She sent me a text later to tell me that she had done those items several times before, but it was me that helped her to really understand it.

 

[HighKick]

I'll give you a specific story to talk about what I mean.

I had been teaching under him for 4 years at this point. I was a 3rd degree black belt. I was there for every class; 5 hours a day, 6 days a week (on top of my day job). My typical routine was that I help out with 4 classes and take the 5th. I wouldn't take any break during the 4 classes I was helping with, then I would take a quick break during the black belt class stretching and warmup to use the restroom and get some water. Usually I would get back at the end of stretches or the start of punches. My rationale was that I didn't want to waste his time and money (when he's paying me to be an instructor), but it was okay to waste a little bit of my time and money between classes. (Classes were back-to-back with no break, so the previous class ended at 7:50 and my class started at 7:50).

One night, a student comes up to me at the end of the previous class to ask a question. She wanted to practice on a heavy bag at home, and wanted to know if it was a good idea. My opinion, which was informed by the opinion of another instructor at my dojang and also an overwhelming majority opinion online, is that this is a great idea to reinforce proper technique. I told her its a good idea. Then took my break. When I got out of the restroom, the Master had already started into the technique portion of class. I went to get on the mat, and he very sternly told me to wait.

Then, he went over some of the 3rd degree testing material that I needed. He hadn't gone over it with me yet in class. None of the students on the mat needed it. They were all 1st or 2nd degree. He specifically had them learn something I needed while I stood on the sidelines. Then he had me come on the mat, and the rest of class we only worked on 1st degree material.

After that, he called me into his office. He questioned my loyalty to him, because I skipped part of my class. He questioned my ethics and integrity. I tried to explain what I said above (about respecting his time and using my time for the break). He explained that all the other instructors were on time. (The other instructors had been there for only 1-2 hours, and were not leading the class as I was). I finally drew it out of him that he wanted me to take my breaks at the end of the previous class, instead of at the start of my class.

Then he asked me what the student had asked me about. He told me that I was wrong to tell her to practice on a heavy bag, because of his past experience where students have had injuries and needed surgery (no details about it). That if a student asks a question and he hasn't told me the answer, I need to refer them to him instead of answering on my own. This is what confirmed for me my suspicion - he wasn't actually mad about me being a little late to class. If he was, he would have spoken up 4 years ago. He was jealous that a student went to me instead of him.

For the next 2 days, at the end of every class I was in, he publicly and sternly told me to take a break. After those two days, he called me back into his office, and said, "Do you understand now or do I need to keep telling you?"

I think he treats his instructors as the release from the frustrations he bottles up from the other students. And he can't take his ego being challenged. This was one of the incidents that is why I was planning on quitting, because he would do stuff like this. He wasn't physically abusive, but he was emotionally abusive and manipulative.

You are looking for confirmation bias and having a pity part, trying to get people on your side. Bad form and there are holes in your last two posts.

You don't like me and that is okay, but I can read between the lines and tell you what you need to hear. I suspect your instructor was/is much the same and you didn't like him either. See a pattern?

I have no skin in the game, and sincerely try to help everyone, but I don't always do it while patting them on the back.

 

[skribs]

You are looking for confirmation bias and having a pity part, trying to get people on your side. Bad form and there are holes in your last two posts.

Care to elaborate? What holes were there in my last two posts? You're going to call me out, then back it up with some evidence. Maybe I can clarify what your misunderstanding is with what I said.

You don't like me and that is okay, but I can read between the lines and tell you what you need to hear.

Your advise was to continue to partake in an abusive relationship. Would you like to revise your advise, or is "continue to partake in an abusive relationship" the best you got?

 

[HighKick]

Care to elaborate? What holes were there in my last two posts? You're going to call me out, then back it up with some evidence. Maybe I can clarify what your misunderstanding is with what I said.


Your advise was to continue to partake in an abusive relationship. Would you like to revise your advise, or is "continue to partake in an abusive relationship" the best you got?

I am certain you can and need to sleuth that out yourself.

Here is the gist of it.
This whole roller coaster story you have talked for years about your old school and instructor has only been told by your side of the story. It has been some time, but you have mentioned how large your old school is. My experience as a MA's business owner is that No school last very long unless they are doing quite a few more things right than wrong. Toxic people do not stay around in any environment very long.

Details lacking, you could not make it work at a couple other TKD schools.

You left for this last journey with some odd mindset that you could strongarm your way into a KKW test. I think in reality you knew full well that was never on the table. They are not handed out like candy and Very few Stateside schools can do KKW test on their own above 1st Dan.

You consistently lambasted a non-KKW rank and acknowledged it has little to no value for starting your own school. Yet you literally waited less than a day to change your rank from 3rd to 4th Dan. Does it have value or not?

And man oh man, you are all over the place. Plan? You have mountains of data but no plan. And do not appear willing to put in the real work, financially, mentally, and physically. I have seen the writings of probably Hundreds of people who have tried to help you. More often than not you shun good advice because it goes against your pre-conceived (yet flawed) ideas. Just start your school. Fail. Start again. Make mistakes, fix them. See better ways. Adopt them. You want WAY TOO MUCH your way and your way only. Dude.
If I had adopted that thinking when I started, I would have failed massively. I leaned on anyone and everyone who could offer me help. But man did I take some chances. When I look back at the loan I took out at 24-years-old to buy the first strip mall at a rather high interest rate because of the risk, it still looks crazy on paper. When I think of the INSANE hours I worked doing 3-4 jobs for about eight years, I have no clue how I did it. There was little internet and certainly no forums to a dreamer to try and glean information. Just wow.

There is an old but very accurate saying that applies here s**t or get odd the pot.

 

[Yokozuna514]

When I look back at the loan I took out at 24-years-old to buy the first strip mall at a rather high interest rate because of the risk, it still looks crazy on paper. When I think of the INSANE hours I worked doing 3-4 jobs for about eight years, I have no clue how I did it.

That takes balls to do that. Not everyone knows what goes into the secret sauce but there is certainly a bit of crazy and the unwavering belief that you are going to get to where you are going if you just follow your own path. And it isn't all rainbows and ponies along the way. Props.

 

[skribs]

This will be my last reply to you in this thread.

This whole roller coaster story you have talked for years about your old school and instructor has only been told by your side of the story.

So because I only tell one side of the story, my story has holes? That's not even a logical argument.

It has been some time, but you have mentioned how large your old school is. My experience as a MA's business owner is that No school last very long unless they are doing quite a few more things right than wrong. Toxic people do not stay around in any environment very long.

Financial success isn't necessarily related to morals and ethics. Some people are very good in public and very bad in private. For example, the CEO at my previous job was very polite and collected in board meetings, but was known for screaming and cussing in meetings with employees.

To think that successful people can't be jerks, or that people can't be two-faced shows an incredible amount of naivety on your part.

You left for this last journey with some odd mindset that you could strongarm your way into a KKW test.

Baseless accusation. I never said anything remotely like this.

My plan was to prepare for the test, learn all the material, and then test under my former Master. Barring that, my plan was to find someone else who will test me. I was planning on paying for the fees, learning the requirements, meeting any expectations, and then testing.

The problem was people wouldn't return my calls or emails, and I didn't feel comfortable training at the other schools in my area for one reason or another.

I never said I was going to force someone to test me.

I think in reality you knew full well that was never on the table.

Baseless accusation.

On top of that, I've said he strung me along before I left, and was very deceptive about it upon my return.

They are not handed out like candy and Very few Stateside schools can do KKW test on their own above 1st Dan.

Not true at all. If you have the proper rank and the Master's license, you can promote up to 3rd Dan. I believe 4th and up may require promotion through a regional KKW board, but this is information I discovered after the incidents in this thread.

For what it's worth, my former Master told me that as a 6th Dan, soon to be 7th, he can promote me to 5th Dan, soon to be a ceiling of 6th.

You consistently lambasted a non-KKW rank and acknowledged it has little to no value for starting your own school. Yet you literally waited less than a day to change your rank from 3rd to 4th Dan. Does it have value or not?

False accusation.

I have lambasted self-promotions. I have questioned the value of a KKW promotion based on KKW schools I have been to. However, I had recently decided it was a good idea to have the KKW certificate (based on my former Master's advice), and was actually leaning towards opening a KKW-affiliated school.

I didn't change my rank from 3rd Dan to 4th Dan. My former Master did. I tested for 4th degree under his school, and he promoted to 4th degree under his school, but he refused to promote me through Kukkiwon like he had done for 1st through 3rd degree. I claim the 4th degree rank because a 6th degree black belt promoted me from 3rd to 4th.

I have changed tracks from seeking KKW rank because my path to KKW rank has hit a dead end. I have changed plans to opening my own unaffiliated school, because I am not qualified to open a KKW school, but I am qualified to open an unaffiliated school.

KKW rank has strong value within Kukkiwon schools and the World Taekwondo (formerly World Taekwondo Federation) community. It has some value outside of that, in that a school affiliated with a different federation or no federation may recognize the Kukkiwon rank, but it has less value in an ITF school, ATA school, or an unaffiliated school than it does in a KKW school.

And man oh man, you are all over the place. Plan? You have mountains of data but no plan.

Plans change as the situation develops.

And do not appear willing to put in the real work, financially, mentally, and physically.

Financially: Baseless accusation. You know nothing of my finances or my financial plan.
Mentally: False accusation. In fact, most people on this forum accuse me of overthinking everything.
Physically: Baseless and false accusation. You know nothing of my physical training because I don't post it on here. For the last 5 months, my training regiment has been every week:

• Daily practice of TKD curriculum for testing
• 5 classes cardio kickboxing and 10 classes Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to build stamina
• Weekly lifting sessions with days for chest, back, and legs/core

I've changed my diet significantly. Cut probably 2000-3000 calories per day and increased the amount of healthy foods I have been eating. I have lost 25 pounds during these 5 months, and put on more muscle to boot. I have been physically training 3-4 hours per day.

I am continuing to grow as a coach through teaching jiu-jitsu and cardio kickboxing.

When I travelled for my test, I arrived two weeks early to learn as much as I could getting ready for testing. I volunteered my time to help out with his classes. He didn't have to accept my help, but he did. (And he made a big deal about how lucky I am that I get to help him for free, instead of him charging me money for teaching experience).

I put in the work. To claim otherwise is completely baseless.

I have seen the writings of probably Hundreds of people who have tried to help you. More often than not you shun good advice because it goes against your pre-conceived (yet flawed) ideas. Just start your school. Fail. Start again. Make mistakes, fix them. See better ways. Adopt them. You want WAY TOO MUCH your way and your way only. Dude.

Pardon me for seeking the proper qualifications before I open a business. Would you recommend people drop out of law school and open their own law firm before passing the bar exam? Would you recommend people drop out of medical school and just start treating people out of a van?

Just because people give me advice doesn't mean it's good advice, or at least not the right advice for me. And in some cases, I may not have seen the advice, because I have put them on ignore - either because of the way they give advice or some unrelated reason. For example, one person once made the comment that a certain race of people shouldn't be taught martial arts because of historical actions taken by people of that race. Another person would bait me into explaining something, then would accuse me of mansplaining because I answered a question. These are not people I want to take advice from.

Other people have taken it upon themselves to claim a mentor/mentee relationship where none exists. They hide behind their rank and experience and claim superiority over me, and then refuse to listen to my side of any debate or argument. I learned in college that professors with this attitude tend not to be worth listening to, and I have applied that here as well.

As to you, you have not provided any specific examples from this thread of holes in my story. Your only evidence that there's holes in my story is that you're only hearing my side. However, you have levelled 4 baseless accusations and 3 false accusations against me.

You did say that I might dislike you for a lot of the reasons why I dislike my former my Master. You're right. He treated me with manipulation, deceit, and gaslighting. I disliked that about him, and I dislike that about you, too. I'm tired of arguing with your hallucinations, so I'm just going to stop.

 

[Buka]

I am certain you can and need to sleuth that out yourself.

Here is the gist of it.
This whole roller coaster story you have talked for years about your old school and instructor has only been told by your side of the story. It has been some time, but you have mentioned how large your old school is. My experience as a MA's business owner is that No school last very long unless they are doing quite a few more things right than wrong. Toxic people do not stay around in any environment very long.

I disagree, that is not always the case. Fred Villari’s United Studios of self defense is a perfect example.

I don’t doubt Skribs’ description of events at all. I can only speak from an east coaster’s experience but I was there in the early seventies when the TKD foray (which seemed like an invasion) first started, they were opening up everywhere.

And most of them displayed EXACTLY the behavior that Skribs describes about his TKD Master. And man, do they all LOVE that term Master.

I’ve always addressed Martial Arts instructor’s as Master if they included it in their title. Except for TKD, I addressed them as Sir and did so with respect.

What Skribs has described I saw first hand over and over and over again. All through the seventies and eighties on the east coast.

And please know I am not bashing the style, I was a TKD man myself. What I’m talking about is a repeated and organized behavior on the part of a cartel of instructors to control
and manipulate clients on the east coast at one time - that I think still goes on today.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I was there in the early seventies when the TKD foray (which seemed like an invasion) first started, they were opening up everywhere.

Yup. Ed Parker was unhappy and concerned over this invasion of "his" territory from a long-term business standpoint.

What I’m talking about is a repeated and organized behavior on the part of a cartel of instructors to control

It was an "organized" invasion as a whole, military-like in execution with support from the government of S. Korea. TKD (headed by an army general) masters sent over here likely had fought in the brutal Korean War and were tough men who were given a new mission - establish a strong TKD presence in America. They were not the kindly old men of the karate kid's Mr. Miyagi variety, though I met a couple of nice (but strict) ones. This explains much of some TKD school's atmosphere and control by the higher ups.

I would think now that most TKD schools are headed by American born instructors so the culture within the schools has changed, but there would be some holdouts from the old ways, perhaps encouraged by the strict Korean organizational hierarchy. Overall, it seems those guy in the 70's were highly successful in their mission.

 

[skribs]

I would think now that most TKD schools are headed by American born instructors so the culture within the schools has changed, but there would be some holdouts from the old ways, perhaps encouraged by the strict Korean organizational hierarchy. Overall, it seems those guy in the 70's were highly successful in their mission.

The school I attended as a kid was run by an American, one of the first Americans to reach the rank of Master. However, the Taekwondo schools I've been to since have been run by Korean immigrants. The main school I've already mentioned my issues there. The other school, there were rumors about some sexism there (i.e. female black belts getting passed up for promotion), but I'm not sure if those rumors are true or if there's other reasons they weren't promoted.

I do remember one time at that school, in a Leadership Class, he spent a good portion of the class (probably 10-20 minutes) publicly shaming one kid for his lack of enthusiasm. To me, that was a "behind closed doors" kind of conversation that shouldn't have been aired in front of the class.

Ironically, the person I want to be most like when I open my school is my BJJ Professor. Which is funny, because TKD is supposed to be an art about courtesy, integrity, and self-control, and BJJ guys online seem like a bunch of frat guys. But my BJJ Professor has a humility that my TKD Masters have lacked.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ironically, the person I want to be most like when I open my school is my BJJ Professor. Which is funny, because TKD is supposed to be an art about courtesy, integrity, and self-control, and BJJ guys online seem like a bunch of frat guys. But my BJJ Professor has a humility that my TKD Masters have lacked.

Unfortunately, there are toxic BJJ instructors out there as well. Some of them are even quite successful business-wise. I don't think there is any martial art (or other kind of business or human endeavor) which is completely free of such individuals.

 

[skribs]

Unfortunately, there are toxic BJJ instructors out there as well. Some of them are even quite successful business-wise. I don't think there is any martial art (or other kind of business or human endeavor) which is completely free of such individuals.

I'm just going off how my anecdotal evidence contradicts the generalizations.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I disagree, that is not always the case. Fred Villari’s United Studios of self defense is a perfect example.

I almost used my experience with ussd as an example/counterpoint. You beat me to it.