Master's relationship to/arrangement with their student's school

[skribs]

Not that there is anything wrong with a local certification but if you "thought" you were certified by Kukkiwon and later found out that you were not, it could have been more costly and embarrassing for you and any students that you would have graded under this regime.

That is an excellent point. It is good I figured this out now.

I would rather have figured this out before I booked my trip...but maybe it's a good thing that I'll at least have what I'm getting.

 

[Yokozuna514]

That is an excellent point. It is good I figured this out now.

I would rather have figured this out before I booked my trip...but maybe it's a good thing that I'll at least have what I'm getting.

Hindsight is 20/20. You won't make this mistake again and perhaps you can help someone else avoid this pitfall by paying it forward.

I had a friend who graded for Shodan in our old organization but the belt (and certification) he received was not recognized by the head office. When we switched organizations, he had to grade for Shodan again. Both of the gradings were gruelling but he passed both. We laugh about it to this day and ask him when he will be grading for his Shodan again but he was a really good sport about it. Not many people would have done the grading twice but in the end he is recognized by the new organization and that is what matters to him.

 

[skribs]

Hindsight is 20/20. You won't make this mistake again and perhaps you can help someone else avoid this pitfall by paying it forward.

If I don't go with Kukkiwon, I will make sure it is clear that I am not. I did mention some things in my long rant I made earlier, but those changes would include (and not be limited to):

• Using in-house forms instead of official forms. That way nobody would come from a Kukkiwon school and recognize the Taegeuks, and think we're a Kukkiwon school.
• In the bio of my website, mention both my unaffiliated 4th degree (although I'd not call it "unaffiliated 4th degree" in my bio) first, and my KKW 3rd degree second. That would show my rubber-stamped Master rank, but also show that I do have KKW experience, and hint that it's not officially a KKW school.
• Change my belt order into something different. My current iteration of the curriculum is what I call "unofficial standard", which is 10 belts consisting of white, yellow, green, blue, and red; each belt has a solid and then a striped version. I would probably go to something that doesn't use striped belts, maybe an 8-belt system adding in purple, orange, and brown. I'm not 100% on the exact system I will use, but it's something I will need to keep in mind. There are multiple reasons I have the striped belts, and so I may keep them (but add purple).

This also is a good reason for me to use a different name for the martial art itself, although I would be back to the drawing board on that. If I'm teaching Skribs-Jitsu instead of Taekwondo, then nobody is going to think I'm from Kukkiwon. To be honest, that may be the route I want to take, because then I have more flexibility away from the norms of what Taekwondo is.

I had a friend who graded for Shodan in our old organization but the belt (and certification) he received was not recognized by the head office. When we switched organizations, he had to grade for Shodan again. Both of the gradings were gruelling but he passed both. We laugh about it to this day and ask him when he will be grading for his Shodan again but he was a really good sport about it. Not many people would have done the grading twice but in the end he is recognized by the new organization and that is what matters to him.

I had a coworker who unretired a few times. His reasoning:

1. "My wife bought a new car."
2. "My wife bought another car."
3. "My wife crashed the first car."
4. "Yep." (When asked if his wife bought another car).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am back in my hometown for a few weeks to test for my 4th degree black belt in TKD, with the ultimate goal of heading back to my new home and opening a school. I didn't really connect with any of the schools in my area. I've recently reconnected with my old Master, and so I am testing under him. For those who've known me for a while on this forum, you'll know that tensions were high between me and him when I moved, but it seems time has healed those wounds.

We were talking today about the relationship between his school and my future school. He and I have approached this conversation from a very different perspective.

• My expectations were that I would remain his student, and I would go to him for training and advice (and likely have a personal financial commitment involved), but that my business would be my own. There would be a separation of him as my Master, but my school would be my own and I would be the Master of my school.
• His expectations were that my school would be a branch of his, even if I have a different name and curriculum. His idea was that he would collect a portion of the testing fees that students pay, but would then provide me with the material awards from testing (such as belts and certificates).

I've pushed back on his expectations, but he also has pushed back on mine. I know he wants to have a business relationship. I do see the benefit of having him as a resource. I also very much want to stand or fall on my own merits and shortcomings. He told me that after talking to me, he would rethink the business relationship, and asked that I do the same. Like I said, I know that in any arrangement, there will be some financial commitment on my part. I'm just hoping for an option that's fair to both of us, but also allows me to maintain full control over my school and the way it operates.

He did talk about being affiliated, but officially I would be affiliated with Kukkiwon, and not necessarily with his school. (I know I've been against it in the past, but I do think overall it's the better choice for now, especially now that I have an opportunity to get my 4th degree).

I'm curious for anyone else who has been in a similar situation, or at least who has looked into it. What is a common arrangement between the owner of a school and their Master before them? If I am able to handle the items he was discussing myself (such as providing my own certificates and belts), what would be a good method to maintain a business relationship or mentor relationship with him, that's fair to both of us?

I'm giving it some thought myself, but I'm open to ideas that others may have, or lessons learned from experiences others may have had.

Is he providing any business support? Is he helping you get off the ground? Unless one or both of those are true, he has no stake in that business to warrant either commission or ownership of gains. He has no risk in this.

My primary instructor's approach was that he continued to pay monthly dues to his instructor (who he rarely had an opportunity to train with - basically only when he came in for a seminar, which he was also paid for). I think this was more than generous, given there was little to no involvement for him.

On the other hand, if you need his approval for things like promotion (I don't know what's required for testing in your organizaiton), there may be a reasonable expectation of a fee for folks testing at those levels requiring his involvement. In the NGAA, as I recall, there was a small fee for registering dan ranks, which helped support the organization (I have no idea why they didn't include something like $5 for registering lower ranks).

 

[Yokozuna514]

If I don't go with Kukkiwon, I will make sure it is clear that I am not. I did mention some things in my long rant I made earlier, but those changes would include (and not be limited to):

• Using in-house forms instead of official forms. That way nobody would come from a Kukkiwon school and recognize the Taegeuks, and think we're a Kukkiwon school.
• In the bio of my website, mention both my unaffiliated 4th degree (although I'd not call it "unaffiliated 4th degree" in my bio) first, and my KKW 3rd degree second. That would show my rubber-stamped Master rank, but also show that I do have KKW experience, and hint that it's not officially a KKW school.
• Change my belt order into something different. My current iteration of the curriculum is what I call "unofficial standard", which is 10 belts consisting of white, yellow, green, blue, and red; each belt has a solid and then a striped version. I would probably go to something that doesn't use striped belts, maybe an 8-belt system adding in purple, orange, and brown. I'm not 100% on the exact system I will use, but it's something I will need to keep in mind. There are multiple reasons I have the striped belts, and so I may keep them (but add purple).

This also is a good reason for me to use a different name for the martial art itself, although I would be back to the drawing board on that. If I'm teaching Skribs-Jitsu instead of Taekwondo, then nobody is going to think I'm from Kukkiwon. To be honest, that may be the route I want to take, because then I have more flexibility away from the norms of what Taekwondo is.

I had a coworker who unretired a few times. His reasoning:

1. "My wife bought a new car."
2. "My wife bought another car."
3. "My wife crashed the first car."
4. "Yep." (When asked if his wife bought another car).

A few things to consider, if I may:

- Skribs-Jitsu - One side of the coin is as you say, the freedom to do what you like. The other side of the coin is that some, if not most, people want to do a recognized martial art and may be leery of a "one of style". Obviously it doesn't apply to all people but generally educating the potential population will take more effort and in the end, you will probably revert to "we follow the Kukkiwon syllabus but are not affiliated with Kukkiwon" just to shorten the education curve. I visited a few schools that essentially took this approach "we do Kyokushin but we are not affiliated with any of the IKO's". Essentially it makes marketing the school more labour intensive but not impossible. There are many examples of people that go on their own successfully so you should also keep that in mind.
- Unique belt system - This can help avoid some proprietary issues but the flip side is, if and when your students go into competition and the organizer asks what your belt system is compared to theirs, a 10 belt system to 10 belt system is easier to convert than an 8 belt system to a 10 belt system. Not a huge point but something to consider.

I am certainly not advocating that you get affiliated with Kukkiwon only, simply stating that there are pluses and minuses to going with your own unique system that doesn't jump out at you in the beginning but may present issues as you grow and get students that want to talk about what they are doing (ie: compare) as well as compete against other schools where that is possible.

Speaking for myself when I was looking at places to train BJJ, I visited a Gracie Barra, BTT and independent school in my area. Each had various price points based on gear to buy and what they offered. The independent school focused more on nogi and their lineage was leaning towards 10th Planet style of grappling. All interesting but the brand schools were certainly more polished and you knew exactly the format that you were going to follow unlike the independent school that followed pretty much the same format but added their own special flair to things.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good luck on your new venture, Skribs. You are right to take the time to think about this arrangement and how you want it to work for YOU. One thing to remember is that nothing when it comes to these types of arrangements are permanent and can unilaterally be changed at any time. There may be a toll on personal friendships but that door swings both ways.

When it comes to these types of arrangements, some of the questions I ask are:

- What are the benefits of being part of this group ?
- Will they increase my business ? How ?
- Will my students benefit from being in a larger organization ? How ?
- Will I have access to increasing my own knowledge and skill ? How ?
- What are the recurring costs to keep this arrangements ? Are they sustainable ?

I am sure there are others that you and others can think of but these are the basic questions I think of when considering joining a larger group. I can understand that cross marketing each other's dojos makes sense. If the main branch does large seminars where your students can participate and gain further knowledge, that makes sense. If you can continue to increase your own knowledge and skills while grading to higher belts that also makes sense however if the cost of being part of this group exceeds the value than what would be the point of being a branch ? Fees and black belts are supposed to be registered by the head of the association so it is important to cultivate your own contacts there or you may find that when you take your students to a world tournament to compete that they may not be allowed because they were never recognized by the main office.

Good luck

I'd just add that I also ask how the arrangement affects the other party, using basically the same questions. I'd be hesitant to enter an arrangement that seems counterproductive to the other party (either it could damage the relationship, or I'm missing something they gain). It also helps clarify if the gains are one-sided in their favor. If their students benefit from the arrangement nearly as much as yours, that doesn't provide a reason they should receive any remuneration.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Having slept on it, I think part of this may be a miscommunication. When he said "branch", I was thinking of something like my BJJ school, in which my Professor owns two locations, and he has a salary for the coaches that run the second location. That's a "branch" to me. But looking contextually, I think more that he's trying to start his own association, and that I would be a member of that association, which makes a lot more sense.



I have been going through this. I do believe his arrangement mostly works for these questions. I think the biggest benefit to me is in getting started. If I have him helping with the business side of things (i.e. giving me contacts for accounting, law, insurance, materials, etc.) that can be a huge benefit off the bat. His payment model actually works fairly well, because the costs are backloaded. I wouldn't be paying him much up front, but I would be paying more once I have a lot of students testing. And if the certificate is from his association, then it makes sense the way he would be providing it.

I also made my profit analysis based on tuition fees only and not on testing fees or merchandise, so this wouldn't necessarily eat into my expectations.

I do want to talk to him about black belt testing and see how that would work.



I would definitely do my due diligence to make sure this is done. However, there's a couple of caveats here:

1. The organization has no official recognition of color belt ranks, and does not collect fees or issue official ranking for color belt testings.
2. There are additional costs to black belt testing other than the registration with the organization. This includes physical items (such as the belt and a new uniform), as well as covering the costs of the boards.

I will need to talk to him about how I plan on running things, and see exactly how the fees would work for black belt testing. He may want a different arrangement when he finds out I'm planning to have fewer tests per student than he is.\

Before you get into other details or give him your approach, it would be good to just find out what the structure is he had in mind (fee levels, at what belts, etc.). This will let you look at it from both sides, see how his view really differs from yours, and prepare any counteroffer.

This is true, but if the arrangement is purposefully backloaded to help me hit the ground running, then I don't personally feel comfortable rearranging it when the load starts to come in. He could do a different arrangement that is I pay $X,000 per year to be a part of this organization. That arrangement would be more difficult at the start (before I have students and income), but less difficult later on.

I took that more as saying it needs to be in writing, so it can't be changed on you (raising fees if he decides it's not balanced the way he wants, etc.).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You get him in for seminars. That would be about it.

Which, if you have enoutgh students, is also a good way to compensate him.

 

[skribs]

Is he providing any business support? Is he helping you get off the ground? Unless one or both of those are true, he has no stake in that business to warrant either commission or ownership of gains. He has no risk in this.

No. I think he sees me as his only ticket to opening a second branch. In the past, he had run off pretty much every other instructor within a couple of years. I know because I had been with him for 3 years, and I had a conversation with a former student of his who was shocked, because I had lasted far longer than any of his other instructors. In his school, promotion to instructor is kind of like giving someone a blue belt in BJJ, I guess.

I've been gone for 3 years now. The folks who were taking over my role when I left are gone. He's got others in place, and it sounds like they're out soon too. He burns through people. I was just able to put up with it longer than others were.

My primary instructor's approach was that he continued to pay monthly dues to his instructor (who he rarely had an opportunity to train with - basically only when he came in for a seminar, which he was also paid for). I think this was more than generous, given there was little to no involvement for him.

This is what I was expecting. That there would be an arrangement between me and him (not between my school and him). That I would continue to be his student, and have the opportunity to train with him. The only relationship I was expecting between our schools is that whenever one of us were in town, we would be able to help out at the other and maybe do a seminar.

On the other hand, if you need his approval for things like promotion (I don't know what's required for testing in your organizaiton), there may be a reasonable expectation of a fee for folks testing at those levels requiring his involvement. In the NGAA, as I recall, there was a small fee for registering dan ranks, which helped support the organization (I have no idea why they didn't include something like $5 for registering lower ranks).

That's the thing. He wanted me to be functionally able to promote people, but licitly that I would be reliant on him. I feel it's a manipulation tactic on his part to cut into my business.

 

[skribs]

Before you get into other details or give him your approach, it would be good to just find out what the structure is he had in mind (fee levels, at what belts, etc.). This will let you look at it from both sides, see how his view really differs from yours, and prepare any counteroffer.

At the time, it seemed it was all belts, but I set the fees and he collects half. But he took that off the table. And then get further in the thread and you'll see this is all moot anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. I think he sees me as his only ticket to opening a second branch. In the past, he had run off pretty much every other instructor within a couple of years. I know because I had been with him for 3 years, and I had a conversation with a former student of his who was shocked, because I had lasted far longer than any of his other instructors. In his school, promotion to instructor is kind of like giving someone a blue belt in BJJ, I guess.

I've been gone for 3 years now. The folks who were taking over my role when I left are gone. He's got others in place, and it sounds like they're out soon too. He burns through people. I was just able to put up with it longer than others were.

This is what I was expecting. That there would be an arrangement between me and him (not between my school and him). That I would continue to be his student, and have the opportunity to train with him. The only relationship I was expecting between our schools is that whenever one of us were in town, we would be able to help out at the other and maybe do a seminar.

That's the thing. He wanted me to be functionally able to promote people, but licitly that I would be reliant on him. I feel it's a manipulation tactic on his part to cut into my business.

My thought is that he's not providing much to you. I'd go forth with the idea of remaining a student, if you still want to, and maybe having him in for a seminar from time to time if that is appealing. Anything beyond that, he doesn't seem to be helping, at all.

And I honestly don't think you gain a lot from his certificate. As I understand it, he doesn't have anyone else operating under his "association" at this point, so his certificates don't carry much weight. You are who you are (and know what you know) with or without his certificate. I'm not convinced the 4th dan adds anything to your marketing (most students don't go comparing stripes between potential schools) if it doesn't link you to the larger association.

 

[skribs]

My thought is that he's not providing much to you. I'd go forth with the idea of remaining a student, if you still want to, and maybe having him in for a seminar from time to time if that is appealing. Anything beyond that, he doesn't seem to be helping, at all.

If you read post #19 (the long one) you'll see that I have absolutely no plans of continuing this relationship beyond next week. This was supposed to be our reconciliation, and he's made things worse.

And I honestly don't think you gain a lot from his certificate. As I understand it, he doesn't have anyone else operating under his "association" at this point, so his certificates don't carry much weight. You are who you are (and know what you know) with or without his certificate. I'm not convinced the 4th dan adds anything to your marketing (most students don't go comparing stripes between potential schools) if it doesn't link you to the larger association.

The difference between 3rd and 4th degree in TKD is the difference between brown and black belt in BJJ. It's the difference between me being "Mister Skribs" and me being "Master Skribs". In some organizations it's 5th degree, but there's a big difference in the TKD community between 3rd and 4th. After 4th or 5th, it's primarily about bragging rights, politics, and (what I would be concerned with) who you can promote.

For marketing, if I were to open a school as a 3rd degree, and someone were to post my school's website on Reddit and ask "Is this a good school?" then the general response will be, "He's not even a 4th degree? Probably sketch."

If I were to open as a 4th degree with an unaffiliated certificate, then the general consensus would be, "I don't know that organization, but sometimes you find a gem."

 

[drop bear]

Which, if you have enoutgh students, is also a good way to compensate him.

Which is kind of what we just did.

Our coaches first coach just popped up for a cheeky seminar, Gave out a couple of black belts and treated us all to a fun weekend.

And coach got himself a stripe.

But essentially we are independent clubs with a friendly reciprocal arrangement.

 

[_Simon_]

Eh, go ahead and look at it in the same light.

I found out last night that he has absolutely no intention of promoting me through Kukkiwon (the organization we're part of). He is promoting me only through his school. I will at least be getting a 4th degree black belt from another higher black belt (which is better than self-promotion), but it won't enable me to promote people within the organization.

He told me that if I want to get a Kukkiwon 4th degree, I need to either A) go to a Kukkiwon-run promotion test and receive my promotion directly from a Kukkiwon branch office, or B) open a branch office under him. I feel he's trying to strong-arm me. This is very counter to what I had believed, what he had told my Dad which is that he felt bad about how he treated our family when we decided to move away, and that he wanted to help me out.

He did offer to refund me the cost of the test if I decided to back out, but that doesn't refund my flight, my car rental, (I'm staying with friends so my lodging is free), my parent's travel to come watch. I had told my parents I was nervous about the test, and they assured me that he wouldn't have me fly all the way out and everything just to fail me. Well, he had me fly out and has no intention of giving me the certificate I was expecting. So I feel I was right to be nervous.

He blames it on a miscommunication we had when I last visited. I had said I want a certificate from him (mainly because I don't want to do self-promotion). He said I should get both his and Kukkiwon so I have options. He was trying to say that he said I should get USNTF in addition to his, not Kukkiwon, and that I can't get both his and another certificate at the same time. He also said I should have been clear and that the paperwork doesn't say I will get a Kukkiwon certificate. He is correct, but the testing material does include "Kukkiwon" as one of the Korean terms to know, and the application I filled out looked very similar to the Kukkiwon application (including asking for my current Dan number). And if he's a Kukkiwon school, how can I operate a branch under him and not be Kukkiwon myself (which is what he originally thought I wanted)? I believed I was getting a Kukkiwon certificate, because I had no reason to believe I wasn't. He says I should have asked and made sure.

I honestly feel betrayed and devastated by him. My parents are coming up to watch me test. I want to reach out to them for advice, but at the same time I think I'm still going to go through with the test, and I'd rather not make things awkward while they're here. I think instead I'll tell them afterwards what happened. I think my relationship with him is done after this. I feel like he's not trying to help me, but he's trying to help himself. I'm also noticing more and more cult-like behaviors in the way he runs his school, the kinds of things he didn't do before or didn't do as often. I've had a strained relationship with him for some time. I was actually about to quit and find a new school, but the day I was going to tell him I was quitting is when COVID happened. By the time things normalized here, I was close enough to my 4th degree I wanted to see it through, but then I ended up moving before I was able to get it. (And the reason I moved away before I got it is because as soon as I told him I was moving, he stopped having time to give me private lessons, stopped teaching my testing material in the regular class, and it was clear to me I was never going to get it).

I don't know what this means for my future plans. I'm figuring I can either:

1. Go to the Kukkiwon branch office to test for 4th degree and complete the instructor certification course, and then open up a Kukkiwon school. In this case, the 4th degree from this school doesn't help me (but it doesn't hurt me). I was going to have to go through them anyway to get the instructor certification course, so now I just have to go through them for both.
2. Use his 4th degree to help legitimize when I open my own unaffiliated Taekwondo school. I would rework my curriculum a bit. My belt order is common in Kukkiwon schools, so I would change it to something different. I also have decided to go with the Taegeuks, but if I go this route, I would create my own forms based more on my curriculum and the way I like forms to look.
3. Use his 4th degree to help legitimize opening a school in my own (currently unnamed) martial art. To be honest, I love Taekwondo, but I'm sick of the internal politics and the reputation it has earned for mcdojos and cultish behavior. This currently unnamed martial art would have the exact same curriculum as if I went with Option #2.
4. Quit Taekwondo entirely and go with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I would be disappointed to leave behind the kicks, the TKD-style sparring, and the forms, but honestly I think I might be happier this way. My BJJ Professor wants me to run the next branch he opens, and he is much easier to work under than my TKD Master is. I wouldn't mind running a branch under him, or eventually running my own. I won't be able to make as much money from running his gym than running my own, but this would probably be a good option for me if I also have a day job to pay the mortgage. I am going to need one anyway for the first few years I run my school (until I have enough students to turn a decent profit), so this isn't much of a setback.

If I do go with Option 2 or Option 3, I run into a similar problem I had before regarding my rank progression and what it means for my students' ceiling. I would at least be a 4th degree instead of a 3rd degree, but I wouldn't have a path forward to 5th. If I don't have a path forward to 5th, then my students don't have a path to 4th, my grand-students don't have a path to 3rd, my great-grand-students don't have a path to 2nd...but that's a problem for future Skribs. At least I would have a 4th degree from a qualified 3rd party, which fixes my immediate problem. I do believe self-promotion is a bad idea, and I believe that promotion through a committee of underlings (as was suggested in this wonderful thread from last year) requires that the lower belts promoting an upper belt should at least be Masters themselves, which means I would need to at least be a 5th degree to promote them to 4th degree, in order for them to turn around and (as a group) promote me higher.

I also run into the issue that with Option 2 or Option 3, my students would be unable to compete at a high level in TKD national or international competitions (without a Kukkiwon certificate you cannot compete in official WT events), and their rank would not be accepted at Kukkiwon schools (assuming they left and joined a school that is affiliated). I honestly think both of these things are very low percentage, but if these things do happen, I don't want to be the reason my students are licitly unqualified even though they are functionally capable. This is a big part of the reason I had changed my mind and wanted to go with Kukkiwon.

At the same time, I currently have no personal relationship with Kukkiwon. I have tried reaching out to the Kukkiwon branch office and haven't heard back. I've had trouble getting in touch with other branches as well. I honestly don't think Kukkiwon is in my future. I am trying to pursue this, but I feel as an American without a Master, Kukkiwon may not look too fondly on me. I've heard plenty of times that Koreans don't have much respect for Americans, both from Koreans and Americans. I know my first Master (when I was a kid) had a hard time getting qualified at the time. I've heard that people get black belts faster in Korea than in America because of the reputation Americans have for being lazy. I've not had much luck with them so far, I don't know that I would have much luck with them going forward.

The one thing I do know is that there is now a timed life on my relationship with my TKD Master. I'm going to put on a good face for the next week. I'll get my black belt, smile for the cameras. But after this, I don't see how our relationship can recover. I have more reasons to walk out on him now than I did in early 2020. The point of reconciling is to make those reasons less. And he tries to spin this as if he's doing favors for me and I should be lucky and grateful for what he is doing.

I've got a lot to figure out. I've got to get through the next week with a good face even though I'm dying inside. I just need to grit and bear it through the graduation, and then figure out my next steps from here.

@skribs I'm really very sorry to hear this... can understand how crushing that would feel. Seems like this instructor just keeps withholding information or not communicating effectively at all... hoping things work out moving forward, and it feels like they will.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

A) go to a Kukkiwon-run promotion test and receive my promotion directly from a Kukkiwon branch office, or B) open a branch office under him

This sounds very much like a quid pro quo that I don't think the kukkiwon would be happy to hear he is withholding ranks in this way.

I recommend getting this in email beyond just the phone call (assuming your talk with him wasn't over email), both so you can advise the kukkiwon what is happening/happened, and so if he tries to gaslight you further about what he offered, you have something concrete you can point him to.

You have the perfect reasoning to do this - there's already been miscommunication, and both of you are aware of the miscommunication. Start the email with something like "Hi [name], I know we realized during our last talk that there was some miscommunication about both of our plans, so I just wanted to make sure we were both on the same page, to prevent any hard feelings afterwards." Then write down what he said, and at the end (or at the beginning if he's not someone to read through everything), put "If you could reply to this just so I know that I'm understanding everything correctly before I make the trip up there, I'd really appreciate it."

Regarding your future plans, I'd recommend option 3 considering that's essentially the one I'm going with. And if you are going to be heavily incorporating BJJ, unless you will have them as two separate classes/curriculums, it wouldn't be accurate to call it any style of TKD at that point. But you already know my views on that from other conversations lol.

 

[skribs]

- Unique belt system - This can help avoid some proprietary issues but the flip side is, if and when your students go into competition and the organizer asks what your belt system is compared to theirs, a 10 belt system to 10 belt system is easier to convert than an 8 belt system to a 10 belt system. Not a huge point but something to consider.

Most schools have their own belt system, the one I was planning on using is just the most common.

This sounds very much like a quid pro quo that I don't think the kukkiwon would be happy to hear he is withholding ranks in this way.

I don't know what Kukkiwon's opinion is. I haven't ever been able to get ahold of anyone at Kukkiwon.

Yes, it is quid pro quo.

I recommend getting this in email beyond just the phone call (assuming your talk with him wasn't over email), both so you can advise the kukkiwon what is happening/happened, and so if he tries to gaslight you further about what he offered, you have something concrete you can point him to.

It was an in-person conversation. I'm in town visiting to get ready for the test.

I don't want to get involved between him and Kukkiwon, I'm not winning that fight, even if I'm in the right. I'd rather just cut my losses and move on.

Regarding your future plans, I'd recommend option 3 considering that's essentially the one I'm going with. And if you are going to be heavily incorporating BJJ, unless you will have them as two separate classes/curriculums, it wouldn't be accurate to call it any style of TKD at that point

I don't think it would be inaccurate. I think all styles of TKD have core and elective elements. The core elements of TKD are forms, kicks, sparring (usually heavily based on kicks), and board breaking (usually heavily based on kicks). Other strikes, various approaches to self-defense, weapons, etc. are all elective content. We learned weapon skills at every TKD school I've been a part of, but there are no official weapons techniques in TKD. I figure the same applies to grappling.

I'm honestly leaning towards just calling it Taekwondo, because the biggest chunk of the curriculum is likely to be TKD. Probably something like 60-70% TKD, 20-30% BJJ, and 10-20% everything else. There is a bit of an option with #4 (going with my BJJ professor) in that he's suggested we may open a new branch for BJJ+TKD. In that case, I could turn the TKD side into a kick-focused side, maybe kicks+forms. I don't know exactly. So if we did that, it would be your suggestion from the other side, primary BJJ with alternate TKD.

 

[skribs]

Today, he almost cancelled my test entirely (even for the unaffiliated certificate).

At the end of the day, his suggestion was the best version I've had throughout all of this: I open my school, and if I need to promote anyone before I get my KKW cert/license, reach out to him and he would help me. That would be a fair arrangement between my school and him. But it's still not a fair arrangement between me and him that he won't just promote me himself.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm in town visiting to get ready for the test.

Don't let all the organizational BS get in the way of your test. Focus on the important thing, your MA, not politics.

 

[skribs]

Don't let all the organizational BS get in the way of your test. Focus on the important thing, your MA, not politics.

The organizational BS is about my test.

 

[Simfers]

Today, he almost cancelled my test entirely (even for the unaffiliated certificate).

At the end of the day, his suggestion was the best version I've had throughout all of this: I open my school, and if I need to promote anyone before I get my KKW cert/license, reach out to him and he would help me. That would be a fair arrangement between my school and him. But it's still not a fair arrangement between me and him that he won't just promote me himself.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, Skribs... Politics suck.

My concern at this point is, asusming the test does go forward, will he be evaluating you fairly and honestly?