Master...or maybe not....

[LeiDren]

It's recently been brought to my attention that I don't really know what Dan ranking is considered Master. I was told that 4th was Master and 7th was Grandmaster, but one of my friends, who is in another school, got yelled at for calling his IV Dan Instructor 'Master'. Does it vary between institutions (ie ITF vs. WTF), or have we been misinformed? And what 'titles', if any, are associated with the other Dan rankings?

 

[Kacey]

In the WTF, 4th Dan is a master; in the ITF, 7th Dan is a master. Occasionally, there are different variations. If you are told not to call an instructor master, then don't - you should always check upon entering a new dojang what the rules/expectations are.

As a 4th Dan in a formerly-ITF affiliate, I do not consider myself a master, and while I would not yell at you if you called me master, I would correct you.

 

[Last Fearner]

It's recently been brought to my attention that I don't really know what Dan ranking is considered Master... And what 'titles', if any, are associated with the other Dan rankings?

Technically speaking, Dan ranks and titles of instructorship, including Master and Grandmaster are separate, although there are typically minimum ranks required, and they do vary from one organization to the next. General Choi Hong Hi set his own preference for the ITF. The WTF no longer deals directly with rank verification as it has become the sole responsibility of the WTF to manage the affairs of Taekwondo competition.

The Kukkiwon was established to verify Dan rank promotions, and provides a detailed description of age, and time in rank requirements at their website (see article 8):
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01
However, there is no mention of Master, Grandmaster, or any other instructor titles because this is a matter for the Kwanjang of a particular Kwan or association. Neither the WTF, nor the Kukkiwon specifies requirements as this is left to the individual Associations as to who is eligible to be considered a "Master."

When I was a young Black Belt (Back in the 1970s), we met Koreans from time to time who were 4th Dan, and called "Masters." The more that Westerners became 4th Dan, they began to deny that title, and said that you had to be 5th Dan. In more recent times (as more westerners became 5th Dan, I have heard many Koreans say that, in Korea, you had to be at least a 6th Dan to open your own Dojang, and earn the title of "Sabeom" or "Master."

Many people have associated becoming a 1st Dan Black Belt with being an "Instructor." In reality, Instructor training, and certification is generally separate from rank. While you must be a minimum of a certain age and rank to hold these titles, there are 2nd and 3rd Dan that are not qualified to teach because they have not become certified instructors. Thus, a 4th Dan might not be a "Master" yet, even if he or she is eligible to test for the "Master Instructor's" title. Eligibility, having the rank, and actually testing for the upgrade in title are two different things. Some associations don't have a specific test, but the title is conferred upon the Black Belt by the Grandmaster.

The USCDKA (U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association) under 9th Dan Sr. Grandmaster Edward Sell, has specific criteria for the testing of instructor titles which coincide with minimum rank requirements, but are not automatically granted at specific ranks. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Dan might be tested for "Associtate Instructor," "Instructor," or "Chief Instructor." 4th or 5th Dan might hold the title of "Associate Master," "Master," or "Master Instructor." 6th Dan and above are eligible to become "Senior Master" or "Chief Master," and the 7th Dan may test for the title of "Professor." Only the 8th and 9th Dan are called "Grandmasters." You must first test for the Dan rank and pass the test. Then you are eligible to test and upgrade your instructor level.

At our recent National Training Conference in Florida, I was sitting at the Head Table in the dinning hall with Sr. Grandmaster Ed Sell (9th Dan), Grandmaster Brenda Sell (8th Dan), Grandmaster Covenski (8th Dan), and my teacher, Grandmaster Alvin Smith (8th Dan). GM Smith made a comment that he was going to just skip 9th Dan and go right to 10th Dan (as in an honorary rank after death) since, as he said to Sr. GM Sell, "I'm going to be dead before you give me a 9th Dan!" Sr. GM Sell laughed at this. Then, GM Covenski agreed, and said they can tie his belt around the outside of his casket, since they always give him such a long belt! Sr. GM Sell was laughing so hard he was turning red in the face. :lol: :lol2: :rofl: :lol:

Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart

 

[matt.m]

You know I believe it is an organization thing. In the World Martial Arts Academy in St. Louis I understand that they call 4th dans master. However in Moo Sul Kwan, the school I attend, a dan is not considered master until reaching the rank of 5th dan.

 

[Tony]

It's recently been brought to my attention that I don't really know what Dan ranking is considered Master. I was told that 4th was Master and 7th was Grandmaster, but one of my friends, who is in another school, got yelled at for calling his IV Dan Instructor 'Master'. Does it vary between institutions (ie ITF vs. WTF), or have we been misinformed? And what 'titles', if any, are associated with the other Dan rankings?

Why on earth did he get yelled at? Sounds like an honest mistake! One of my fellow students called my instructor master and just laughed it off!

 

[MA-Caver]

Why on earth did he get yelled at? Sounds like an honest mistake! One of my fellow students called my instructor master and just laughed it off!

Ya, I was kinda wondering about this myself. Sometimes I'll say something like, they "yelled" at me and mean that they simply corrected a (bad) mistake of mine rather than get in my face and raise their voices so that everybody can hear and get spittle on my glasses. Depending upon my mood that'll start a fight or at minimum a walk out, be it boss, instructor, significant other, whomever! Get out of my face with that and treat me as I am... an adult human being. Hell, don't even do it to a child.

It wouldn't impress me if an instructor did something like that, and I would probably consider finding another school if there were others about town. To me, an instructor (in ANY art) should maintain the same type of discipline and respect TO their students that they expect from them. Ranting and yelling at someone for a mistake made is something that over weight high-school gym teachers and football coaches do, not martial art instructors who hold promient ranks.

 

[LeiDren]

Well, from what I was told, he was just irritated that his students thought he was a master, for whatever reason *shrugs*. Personally, I'd probably take it as a compliment, coming from another martial artist.

 

[Miles]

If you are told not to call an instructor master, then don't - you should always check upon entering a new dojang what the rules/expectations are.

As a 4th Dan in a formerly-ITF affiliate, I do not consider myself a master, and while I would not yell at you if you called me master, I would correct you.

This is super advice Kacey!

People sometimes get hung up on titles. They shouldn't, but some do. I don't insist anyone call me Master either. "Mister" is just fine. (I do want to have some formality in the class). Outside of the class, adults can and do call me by my first name. Among other instructors, if they insist upon being called "Master", I'll honor their request. I can respect the rank for what was required to earn it.

Miles

 

[Zendokan]

I got it a little simplier here in Belgium, we use the dutch translation of master and grandmaster ( I'm Flemish).
And the rules are:
- every dangrade except 1st is called master (meester) except when you are equal graded, then you call them by their name.
- 1st dan blackbelt is called instructor (instructeur) by kyu/kup grades. Here again the name thing between to 1st dans.
- their is only one grandmaster (grootmeester): the most highest ranking in the system.

It's simple and keeps the ego's in check:Meester ( the dutch translation of Master) means master and also teacher (like in schoolteacher)
And because we translate master and grandmaster no other clubs can say that we are insulting their "master-ranks" by calling 2nd dans master.. I mean Meester.

Greetz

Zendokan

 

[hapkenkido]

when i was coming up in the ranks i had seen 5th dans being called master. when i took a short break in training and visited other schools it was 4th dan as master. because of that i always told myself and my student when they would call me master, "i am not a master till my master calls me one". then one day after my 4th dan test he called me master and i have kept the title. but if a student just calls me Mr. instead of master it dosent bother me.

 

[Twin Fist]

In my lineage, 5th is Master.

 

[Deaf Smith]

When I was a young Black Belt (Back in the 1970s), we met Koreans from time to time who were 4th Dan, and called "Masters." The more that Westerners became 4th Dan, they began to deny that title, and said that you had to be 5th Dan. In more recent times (as more westerners became 5th Dan, I have heard many Koreans say that, in Korea, you had to be at least a 6th Dan to open your own Dojang, and earn the title of "Sabeom" or "Master."

Same thing happend to me. I went to 4th and then found out I needed a 5th to do all my own testing (I opened the school, but my instructor did the testing.)

I'll worry about if I have to make 6th when I retire... BTW my teacher, a Korean master, says we are 'masters'. My good friend, who made 5th when I did, kid each other by bowing to each other muttering 'master.. master'.

I really don't take the terms all that serious. Now inside the dojo all rules apply. I expect bowing, total respect from each student to me and to each other. Respect for the dojo, concentration, etc... the whole 9 yards. I demand it!

But outside class, if they try to call me 'master' or bow, they know I'll strangle them. Shake my hand or call me Mr., yes, but on the street I'm just a good friend to ride the river with.

Deaf

 

[YoungMan]

Kukkiwon policy establishes that 4th Dan on up is considered instructor rank, meaning you may teach your own class, judge, and officiate.
It says nothing about who is considerd a Master. I suspect the idea of Master is more a Korean cultural thing than anything written in stone. It is something that goes along with Taekwondo etiquette and culture rather than being an actual "this is when you shall be addressed as Master". Even in Taekwondo circles, it is done more out of respect between colleagues and students than a dictum you have to follow. Mister is just as appropriate. And I've never seen an instructor get offended because he wasn't addressed as Master. Not with us anyway.
It also takes a large ego and lots of insecurity to want to be addressed as Master outside class by non-students. Outside class you are governed by Western culture and etiquette.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really it all comes down to how your organization sees it.

 

[Drac]

Hapkenkido can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Combat Hapkido ranks a 4th Dan is required to be addressed as Master..

 

[tellner]

As far as I'm concerned "Master" is just half of the word :shrug:

Anyone who demands the title ipso facto doesn't deserve it.

 

[exile]

As far as I'm concerned "Master" is just half of the word :shrug:

Anyone who demands the title ipso facto doesn't deserve it.

And we've known some in the past who indeed did demand it, eh?

Someone made a good point above about how, if you're not in someone's org, you have absolutely no obligation to use an org-specific title to address them or refer to them, any more than a civilian is obliged to salute high ranking officers and formally address them by their military rank. People who keep shoving Master, or some variant of it, in your face and expecting you to kowtow to them on that basis have problems of a sort it's probably way, way too late to do anything about...

 

[jim777]

Hapkenkido can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Combat Hapkido ranks a 4th Dan is required to be addressed as Master..

I don't do Combat Hapkido myself (but only because the schools are so far from me), but I know 2 Combat Hapkido Masters and 4th Dan is where you get the title in that art. I might add that both guys are simply astounding martial artists as well, and in my humble opinion it would appear that those with Master titles in CH deserve those titles.

 

[YoungMan]

There are people that I work with who know I hold the rank of 5th Dan in Taekwondo. They are suitably impressed by it, but I have never requested or told them to adress me a certain way. I'm just a guy they work with, although one who happens to possess skills and techniques they do not.
Now, they have also expressed interest in joining a class I am in the process of setting up. If that happens, they will be governed by Taekwondo etiquette and manners in class (meaning proper address). Outside of class, at work, it will be business as usual, unless we are engaged in some sort of Taekwondo-oriented activity and our respective roles come into play.
If they join the class, and wish to address me according to Taekwondo etiquette at work, that's their perogative. But I certainly wouldn't tell them to.

 

[tellner]

If they join the class, and wish to address me according to Taekwondo etiquette at work, that's their perogative. But I certainly wouldn't tell them to.

It's their prerogative, but I would certainly strongly discourage them from doing so. Work is work. Hobbies are hobbies. Personal life is personal life.

When you're in class you act in a way that's appropriate for a Tae Kwon Do class. You wear different clothes. You talk in different ways. There is a hierarchy based on martial arts rank.

When you are on the company's dime your etiquette and behavior have to conform to the company's requirements. The part of your life that is TKD can't be allowed to interfere. You take off those clothes when you put on your work clothes.

Suppose you and a co-worker were in a completely consensual BDSM relationship. What happens outside the office stays outside the office. One would not call the other Master at work or exhibit any number of other behaviors that were appropriate in that other context. When you're at work, you're at work. You address people in a manner that is appropriate and professional.

Letting the martial arts relationships leak into a business setting might not be quite as extreme. But the potential is there. Best to leave the titles and reflexive obedience in the dojo and put on your business self outside its doors.