Master...or maybe not....

[YoungMan]

But as I said, what they do is their perogative. Yes, as long as it doesn't interfere with company policy or how it runs, how they would choose to address me is up to them. I certainly wouldn't expect them to address me a cerain way. They might feel that when it's them and me alone, without coworkers, they can call me by my TKD title. It would certainly be awkward with non-students around. Again, I would never expect it outside class. And I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
For the record, I always addressed my Grandmaster according to TKD custom regardless of where we were.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know that in Kukkiwon taekwondo, fourth dan is the level where one can sign dan certificates, so I suppose that it makes sense to equate that with master.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with the quality of instruction than with what title he or she holds.

Daniel

 

[Dave Leverich]

It's all over the board for what's 'Master' yep, 4th-7th depending on the org in TKD.
I just answer to whatever they yell at me, er call me . In my org, Master is 6th (separate from rank, but 6th is required to become Master Instructor).

I was at a dinner with an 8th dan Master, a 6th dan, myself and a couple of 5ths. Two of them were from separate orgs who had 5th as master and they'd often refer to me as Master, the 8th across the table from me would just grin and wink at me heh. So I rolled with it and had a chuckle with the 8th.

Later when we were playing golf he'd say it as a joke, then go 'oh wait.. you SHOULD be a Master now..' ribbing me on my non-high-speed rank chasing hehe.

 

[TallAdam85]

in Michigan most of the schools and people I know are at Master Level when they get there 4th Dan. I know in TSD master if 4th Dan. But Master , Sensei, Grandmaster, Soku, Sifu, there all just a word. the thing that matters is how u think of your self and how ur students , peers and how u treat other people. Who cares what strangers think of you not strangers.

 

[irgordon]

Just do it like the Japanese, if yuo teach or instruct, you are "Sensei" lol...no delination or degree required....but someone said it before, typically its up to the individual schools or associations to make those determinations. Honestly, it not really important if you are just training and trying to become a better Taekwondo martial artist.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Even the traditional Japanese bugei and bushido have distinctions between the levels of instructors such as Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi set by the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai. Just as the Korean systems have Cho Gyo Nim, Sa Bum Nim and and Kwan Jang Nim.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

From an administrative point of view, the answer would be the arbitrary guideline imposed by the organizational group. This can be anywhere, as noted above, from 4th to 7th Dan. I suppose administratively this makes sense. From a realistic standpoint, it is pretty useless. Being a 'master' means to have learned the basic/advanced applications to a high degree of proficiency be it an electrician, a plumber or a martial artist. This would by necessity entail enough time to be able to bring ones skills to this level, as well as the exceptional ability to pass on this information/skill set to the next generation of students.

Unfortunately, in the world of martial arts, the terms master, grandmaster, supreme grandmaster, ultimate grandmaster are a marketing term as opposed to an actual indication of skill/teaching ability. It has become watered down to the point that it is generally meaningless and not readily applicable to the majority that call themselves by the title. As a general rule, anyone that calls themselves a master/grandmaster...aren't. Those that others feel the need to address in this manner due to skill, teaching ability, contributions to the arts...are.

Perhaps a better guideline would be the founder or leader of an art bestowing the title rather than it being some automatic thing once a certain level has been reached.

 

[Archtkd]

I know that in Kukkiwon taekwondo, fourth dan is the level where one can sign dan certificates, so I suppose that it makes sense to equate that with master.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with the quality of instruction than with what title he or she holds.

Daniel

Sir. I think you meant can recommend one for Kukkiwon certification, because in Kukkiwon taekwondo only officials of the Kukkiwon can issue and sign dan certificates.

Technically speaking, the Kukkiwon recognizes anyone with a dan certificate as a master. The meaning of master, as translated from Korean, is a courtesy title like Mister. That issue has been raised by others on this forum many time and loud debates always arise when that happens.

Where the Kukkiwon draws a distinction, especially in Korea, is the title sabum, which many of us in America call a master instructor. In Korea, the only one who can hold the title of sabum and be allowed to teach Kukkiwon taekwondo independently is someone 4th dan and up, and one who has also attended the Kukkiwon Master Instructor course and passed the exam that follows the course. Kukkiwon taekwondoin overseas take the Kukkiwon Overseas Master Instructor course to earn the title of a Kukkiwon international certified master instructor. There are three levels of certification: 3rd Grade for 4th-5th Dan, 2nd Grade for 6th-7th Dan and 1st Grade of 8th-9th Dan. The Kukkiwon Overseas Master Instructor courses are offered at the Kukkiwon once annually, and occasionally outside Korea.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Since I am still not part of any org, I make my own rules on that. Which is, no one is allow to call me master. Then again, I'm only 2nd degree, so I wouldn't be allowed that title in any org out there anyways.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In "Living the Martial Way" th author d\critiques an un named group theat devolved the title by reducing the rank at which it was used. His critique was that it was used at a rank where the entire system syllabus had been learned and now was used at a lower rank where a part of thhe syllabus was yet to be learned. In summary his point was; "How can you be a Master of a system where you had not yet learned the system?"

As Kong Soo said, it became all about marketing. Customer walks in and sees people dancing in their pajamas taught by a "Master" and they are ripe for the picking. They sign up for Takeyurdough.

 

[msmitht]

4th-5th dan are sabeom or sabeom nim(teacher/instructor) .6th is sook sa sabeom(nim). 7th and up is kwangjang(nim). I have heard from my korean friends that a school owner is called kwangjang as well.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Technically speaking, the Kukkiwon recognizes anyone with a dan certificate as a master. The meaning of master, as translated from Korean, is a courtesy title like Mister. That issue has been raised by others on this forum many time and loud debates always arise when that happens.

Is that the official KKW explanation? I recall the discussion you reference, but I don't think that was what the KKW said so much as what some posters were hypothesizing. Could be wrong, but I thought that was the case.

Pax,

Chris

 

[rickster]

Mastery passes often for egotism

“Ah, mastery... what a profoundly satisfying feeling when one finally gets on top of a new set of skills... and then sees the light under the new door those skills can open, even as another door is closing.”

If you think you have mastered something, look around and see if it is unbeatable. Then you will see flaws in yourself and realize the travel to mastering is likewise to learning, it is infinite like space and time

 

[Archtkd]

Is that the official KKW explanation? I recall the discussion you reference, but I don't think that was what the KKW said so much as what some posters were hypothesizing. Could be wrong, but I thought that was the case.

Pax,

Chris

That as far as I know is the official Kukkiwon position, when it's dealing with Koreans. A lot of the terms we sometimes use including grandmaster and supreme grandmaster were inventions of the West, especially Americans. The Kukkiwon classifies blackbelts thus: Yudanja - 1st Dan to 5th Dan, and Kodanja 6th Dan and up. I don't know Korean, but I don't think those terms mean master and grandmaster, the way we in America might understand it.

 

[chrispillertkd]

That as far as I know is the official Kukkiwon position, when it's dealing with Koreans. A lot of the terms we sometimes use including grandmaster and supreme grandmaster were inventions of the West, especially Americans. The Kukkiwon classifies blackbelts thus: Yudanja - 1st Dan to 5th Dan, and Kodanja 6th Dan and up. I don't know Korean, but I don't think those terms mean master and grandmaster, the way we in America might understand it.

You're correct, yudanja and kodanja don't mean master or grand master. They mean "degree [dan] holder" and "senior degree holder" respectfully. I've never heard of a KKW explanation for the use of "master" and "grand master" in English. There was some speculation by MT members a while back, but no citation from KKW sources (books or web sites) as to why. Daniel Sullivan also pointed out there there was no real equivalency between those terms and "mister."

Speaking as a non-KKW person, it's a conundrum.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In "Living the Martial Way" th author d\critiques an un named group theat devolved the title by reducing the rank at which it was used. His critique was that it was used at a rank where the entire system syllabus had been learned and now was used at a lower rank where a part of thhe syllabus was yet to be learned. In summary his point was; "How can you be a Master of a system where you had not yet learned the system?"

As Kong Soo said, it became all about marketing. Customer walks in and sees people dancing in their pajamas taught by a "Master" and they are ripe for the picking. They sign up for Takeyurdough.

Written by Forrest E. Morgan. Very good book that doesn't sugar-coat things. It's been a few years since I read it, but iirc you are correct about the systems 'masters' bickering about what rank to make master. And something about stripes on the belt maybe? At the time of the book he was a 4th Dan in TKD but don't remember what organization, or if he mentioned which one.

 

[chrispillertkd]

He doesn't mention it in the section Master Weiss mentioned but given his background presented in the "About the Author" snippet and some other comments about his training it's not hard to figure out who he's talking about.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gentle Fist]

In judo we are a little slower

1st - 3rd Dan = Advanced Student
4th - 5th Dan = Instructor
6th - 8th Dan = Expert
9th Dan + = Master

 

[Metal]

In Germany I hardly ever see anybody addressing anybody as 'master'.

Over here the coach or trainer is just a coach or trainer. ;-)
Most of the time those people are addressed with their first names and it doesn't matter if they're 1st Dan or 7th.

In my opinion respect is not being expressed by calling anybody 'master' or always yelling "Sir, yes, sir!". ;-)

The Korean 9th Dan holders I trained at I addressed as 'Master ___' though.