Martial Frankensteins...why the hate?

[oaktree]

Wasn't Frankenstein's monster super strong?

but then again, mentally challenged.....

Frankenstein's monster was not mentally challanged. At first he was a simpleton who had difficulty with his senses to learning about fire and gathering of food, to learning language and finally being able to teach himself how to read. When he approaches Dr.Frankenstein in the mountains his manner of speech is articulate and intelligent.

 

[Instructor]

It's not any particular style but a certain mindset that looks down on anyone not studying their style, it tends to be instructors who are rigid in what they teach, the don't ask why, just do types. Egos are often involved as well as grandiose statements about their style, there's never anything they can learn from any other style which is why they don't like anyone who has trained elsewhere in their groups. Parents think they are wonderful with their children, teaching them 'discipline' ie do as I say or else you get press ups and derision. I wouldn't say they were McDojos because it's not about the money it's about the 'preciousness' of their style, it's a closed mindedness that nothing can be as good as what they do, funnily enough often though you find techniques and katas/patterns have been changed by them to put their own stamp on them, (going back perhaps to the Frankenstein thing?) I think too it's snobbishness as much as anything else.

I think the 'them and us' mindset between teachers and schools isn't as prevelent today as it once was. Most bigotry is bred from ignorance. The internet has made knowledge and sharing it easier and I think helps people with familiarity. For example I do not know BJJ but thanks to the media I have some idea what it is and when I get a student with some BJJ history I kind of understand what he is saying. 20 years ago if someone had said Brazillian Jiu Jutsu I probably would have thought they were talking about the Japanese Jujutsu.

I for one do not think less of a person of many styles, particularly a servicemember that had little choice in the matter. I admire their spirit to keep learning in spite of everything.

I do have issue with a person who dubs themself the grandmaster of a new style having not attained any measure of that rank in any other system. That just rubs me the wrong way, it lacks credibility.

 

[Tez3]

I think the 'them and us' mindset between teachers and schools isn't as prevelent today as it once was. Most bigotry is bred from ignorance. The internet has made knowledge and sharing it easier and I think helps people with familiarity. For example I do not know BJJ but thanks to the media I have some idea what it is and when I get a student with some BJJ history I kind of understand what he is saying. 20 years ago if someone had said Brazillian Jiu Jutsu I probably would have thought they were talking about the Japanese Jujutsu.

I for one do not think less of a person of many styles, particularly a servicemember that had little choice in the matter. I admire their spirit to keep learning in spite of everything.

I do have issue with a person who dubs themself the grandmaster of a new style having not attained any measure of that rank in any other system. That just rubs me the wrong way, it lacks credibility.

People don't always have to call themselves grandmasters to be little Hitlers which I've seen a few of in martial arts. There are those who assume a faux modesty when describing their made up style.

 

[punisher73]

I know quite a few people who have trained different styles and haven't graded much in any system, this however isn't their fault but because they are posted out of the place they were in and had to find a different style as they couldn't always find the same in their new posting. I'd find out why they've done different styles first before condemning them. This is why MMA is catching on big style with the military. I don't know anyone however who has created their own system though

I do. I remember when MMA was first starting to get more mainstream. I went to a place to train with some guys and a couple of the guys claimed 2nd degree BB's in "submission grappling". It was their own thing that they did and created ranks for. Also, in the early days Marco Ruas named his MMA style mixing Muay Thai and BJJ.

Here's the thing about "Frankenstein styles". Where is it 50 years from now? Was it able to be passed on through generations of students after the founder has passed on and still teach concepts/techniques to make a student capable of handling themself, and also provides a lifelong study of material to really master it's depth.

The other issue I see, is that in the 70's and 80's if you hung your banner out there, you would get challenged. You either answered those challenges and won, or you didn't stay around very long. Now, due to lawsuits/liability you don't have that going on anymore, and you have people who have never been in real fights but have crosstrained putting ideas together based on theories of combat instead of combat experience.

I, myself, am a student of a "Frankenstein system". I am very happy with how it is set up etc. But, I have also trained and looked into many other traditional arts and see how changes were made and why, and have come to the conclusion that it has as much depth as those. Sometimes, I also think that "Frankenstein systems" suffer from the "you're not asian syndrome". Meaning, that if the system was presenting by someone with asian decent and is older than 50 years most people would not have a problem with it.

 

[rickster]

.

I, myself, am a student of a "Frankenstein system". I am very happy with how it is set up etc..

Do you put both arms out strsight and grunt? LOL

 

[Flying Crane]

we're fatigued by all the bunk out there.

beautifully phrased.

 

[rickster]

Some people create a "frankenstein" out of ego

 

[TheBigV]

I certainly do not have the hate which you speak of. But I have seen it all and I mean aaaaaaaaaall over the Internet on different Forums. This seems to be the most flexible MA board yet.Cudos to all of you. Howver, while I do not feel hate at any particular style or teacher I have been with in my 25+ years of training in the past, I do have a lot of rage at how many years I wasted going from school to school, starting at age 25 with Shotokan Karate, to Kenpo, to American Indian Tai Lu Chuan FA, to JKD and Kick Boxing, only to run out of schools in Las Vegas after a few years that werent diploma mills. So the process would begin again, only this time in my 30's I would go for the mystical. I wanted chi power, power built from standing meditation, tai-chi, Qi-Gong, vibrating death palms and lethal energy transference. Then in my 40's I figured the real "Internal Arts" were too obtuse to be taught directly to Westerners from an Asian teacher so I sought out Americans who could claim they developed "special powers" by studying 20+ years with an Asian, figuring they could give it to me in a fraction of the time. Then I decided that what was missing was fun!!!! I was so caught up in "becoming" I lost all the joy of doing" and Martial classes became a prison of horrors in my 40's as my body was slowing, I couldnt be pepped up at class on 2 cups of coffee anymore and everything was starting to look old...."used", even. So I then sought out the combat arts of Krav Maga, Systema and other non traditional fighting arts. "Yawn."...............Are you getting tired yet, I am? And only recently at the ripe old age of 52 that I have decided my days of spectacular achievements and fame are long behind me, and "allowing" myself to sink right over my head in the mud of life and absorb the joy and camaraderie of any school I feel "will work on the street." Period!

True, it hasnt been all my fault. Martial Arts schools need a governing body or examining process to be able to open their doors. And something has to be done when in 99% of schools, no student gets even close in school to his teacher! But now my journey with the help of Forums like these and listening to others journeys will hopefully help me make some sense out of what to me was for over 20 years a huge waste of time and effort. I would even be happy to quit this elusive search. But every day I do not train or research becomes more and more painful. Like a destiny that awaits me, and I have no clue as to what it could be. Might as well enjoy it! But to put together a packaged art of the pieces and crumbs I have absorbed over the years is beyond my conscience. After all, to rob someone of money is horrible, but to steal their time is the greatest theft of all. And God knows with a totally unregulated Internet how many "Masters" are popping up with Ninja Training courses on DVD for $500 to learn at the convenience of home. I understand the mind-set: "Hey someone did it to me, I gotta do it back. Its just the dues yuh have to pay to learn." Now that is total B.S.!!!

 

[Zenjael]

I find this problem to be arising due to progression. I recall a recent school I revisited where it was a stark difference between the modern training they were receiving and the 'traditional' I had, had. I wouldnt say one is better than the other; its just that in todays world martial arts are going to continue, but no longer in the singular vein. Sure, there will always be people who specialize in a specific style, but overtime I sincerely believe they will find themselves in the minority. As people who are purists often are, in changing times.

The fact we're actually able to speak to each other, cross style, online, is ample evidence of this.

I think anyone though who opts to specialize and learn only one style... might risk missing learning the technique from another system, which may actually be the counter to what occurs in the realistic situation.

Its old vs. new. Nothing new in my book.

 

[WC_lun]

"Jack of all trades, master of none."

I don't have any issue with training having various arts in it. However, there is a difference between that and throwing a bunch of crap together and thinking it comes anywhere close to being effective. I train in Wing Chun, though sometimes we will go over Juijitsu and Judo techniques. My instructor is a black belt in both of those and another one of my training brothers owns his own school teaching Judo and Juijitsu. So the information is solid AND we still stick to Wing Chun principles. I would not feel nearly as comfortable adding any training from Judo or Juijistsu if from someone not qualified to teach those systems or if I did not already have a solid enough base to understand what I was seeing...or at least understand when something is explained to me.

Too many people want to mix this and that together, without truly having the knowledge to do so. Then they want to offer that product to the public as something that can help them defend themselves. It is nothing short of fraud and gives real martial artist a bad reputation. That is why you will see and hear negativity when it comes to cobbled together "systems"

 

[Chris Parker]

I find this problem to be arising due to progression. I recall a recent school I revisited where it was a stark difference between the modern training they were receiving and the 'traditional' I had, had. I wouldnt say one is better than the other; its just that in todays world martial arts are going to continue, but no longer in the singular vein. Sure, there will always be people who specialize in a specific style, but overtime I sincerely believe they will find themselves in the minority. As people who are purists often are, in changing times.

The fact we're actually able to speak to each other, cross style, online, is ample evidence of this.

I think anyone though who opts to specialize and learn only one style... might risk missing learning the technique from another system, which may actually be the counter to what occurs in the realistic situation.

Its old vs. new. Nothing new in my book.

Hmm, I don't think you really get what a "martial arts Frankenstein" is here, Alex. We're not talking about the benefits of cross training. The following post says it quite well, really.

"Jack of all trades, master of none."

I don't have any issue with training having various arts in it. However, there is a difference between that and throwing a bunch of crap together and thinking it comes anywhere close to being effective. I train in Wing Chun, though sometimes we will go over Juijitsu and Judo techniques. My instructor is a black belt in both of those and another one of my training brothers owns his own school teaching Judo and Juijitsu. So the information is solid AND we still stick to Wing Chun principles. I would not feel nearly as comfortable adding any training from Judo or Juijistsu if from someone not qualified to teach those systems or if I did not already have a solid enough base to understand what I was seeing...or at least understand when something is explained to me.

Too many people want to mix this and that together, without truly having the knowledge to do so. Then they want to offer that product to the public as something that can help them defend themselves. It is nothing short of fraud and gives real martial artist a bad reputation. That is why you will see and hear negativity when it comes to cobbled together "systems"

 

[Flying Crane]

.

I think anyone though who opts to specialize and learn only one style... might risk missing learning the technique from another system, which may actually be the counter to what occurs in the realistic situation.

As I keep saying, if you understand your principles, then you don't need to chase after every technique that's ever been created. there is no magical technique that is THE counter to what you might be attacked with. You should be able to use a small number of techniques in a variety of ways, getting lots of mileage out of a smaller amount of material, but this is only if you really understand your system on a principle level.

chasing after techniques is largely a waste of time, it's a less fruitful approach to learning. You don't need every technique out there, in fact trying to know them all just gets in the way, makes you worse.

 

[MJS]

I find this problem to be arising due to progression. I recall a recent school I revisited where it was a stark difference between the modern training they were receiving and the 'traditional' I had, had. I wouldnt say one is better than the other; its just that in todays world martial arts are going to continue, but no longer in the singular vein. Sure, there will always be people who specialize in a specific style, but overtime I sincerely believe they will find themselves in the minority. As people who are purists often are, in changing times.

The fact we're actually able to speak to each other, cross style, online, is ample evidence of this.

I think anyone though who opts to specialize and learn only one style... might risk missing learning the technique from another system, which may actually be the counter to what occurs in the realistic situation.

Its old vs. new. Nothing new in my book.

Is that what you think matters most in the arts....collecting thousands of techniques? LMFAO, dude, if thats what you think, then you're certainly on the wrong path to learning. The idea that one would actually be able to recall a specific tech for a specific attack, when the poop is hitting the fan, is crazy at best. The techs. simply give an idea, however, the student, as they progress thru their training, should begin to step out of the box, so to speak, and not rely on those techs, but instead, come up with the correct response, according to whats happening at that moment.

Having thousands upon thousands of techniques doesnt make you a better martial artist, is makes you a technique collector.

 

[Flying Crane]

Having thousands upon thousands of techniques doesnt make you a better martial artist, is makes you a technique collector.

aye, take it from a couple of people who have walked down that path.

 

[rickster]

As I keep saying, if you understand your principles, then you don't need to chase after every technique that's ever been created. there is no magical technique that is THE counter to what you might be attacked with. You should be able to use a small number of techniques in a variety of ways, getting lots of mileage out of a smaller amount of material, but this is only if you really understand your system on a principle level.

chasing after techniques is largely a waste of time, it's a less fruitful approach to learning. You don't need every technique out there, in fact trying to know them all just gets in the way, makes you worse.

Frankenstein wit the most important parts

 

[Flying Crane]

Frankenstein wit the most important parts

I wouldn't call it that. I'd say it's about understanding what makes it work, and realizing that that understanding can be applied to anything.

In a good system, this should be the real goal of training, but it gets lost underneath the curriculum and the pursuit of techniques. Really, the techniques that comprise the curriculum should simply be examples of how the principles are put into use. The techniques really just guide your understanding.

Sure, the techs can and should be useful right out of the box, if you understand the principles, the engine underneath that makes it all run. But you shouldn't be limited by those techniques. Any movement should have the potential to be a devastating technique, if you understand your principles, and if you can apply your principles to that movement, even if that movement does not look like a "proper" technique, a "proper" punch.

In the Chinese arts, we say: learn the technique so that you can forget it. That doesn't simply mean that you practice it over and over until you have muscle memory and the technique happens automatically. If you are chasing techniques and have lots and lots of them, it becomes impossible to train them all to automatic muscle memory. The list is too long, it becomes a burden, it cannot be done. This is not what is meant by forgetting the technique. What is really meant is, you understand the principles and can apply them to any movement, whether it's a "proper" technique or not. Sure, you can use the proper techniques, they are useful, but you don't have to be limited to the proper techniques. You can do anything with the principles.

This is not cobbling together a frankenstein system. This is truly learning what the system has to offer, and that is embracing and internalizing the principles, and understanding how it can be applied everywhere.

 

[rickster]

I wouldn't call it that. I'd say it's about understanding what makes it work, and realizing that that understanding can be applied to anything.

In a good system, this should be the real goal of training, but it gets lost underneath the curriculum and the pursuit of techniques. Really, the techniques that comprise the curriculum should simply be examples of how the principles are put into use. The techniques really just guide your understanding.

Sure, the techs can and should be useful right out of the box, if you understand the principles, the engine underneath that makes it all run. But you shouldn't be limited by those techniques. Any movement should have the potential to be a devastating technique, if you understand your principles, and if you can apply your principles to that movement, even if that movement does not look like a "proper" technique, a "proper" punch.

In the Chinese arts, we say: learn the technique so that you can forget it. That doesn't simply mean that you practice it over and over until you have muscle memory and the technique happens automatically. If you are chasing techniques and have lots and lots of them, it becomes impossible to train them all to automatic muscle memory. The list is too long, it becomes a burden, it cannot be done. This is not what is meant by forgetting the technique. What is really meant is, you understand the principles and can apply them to any movement, whether it's a "proper" technique or not. Sure, you can use the proper techniques, they are useful, but you don't have to be limited to the proper techniques. You can do anything with the principles.

This is not cobbling together a frankenstein system. This is truly learning what the system has to offer, and that is embracing and internalizing the principles, and understanding how it can be applied everywhere.

Therefore, CMA does not have cobbled methods?

 

[Flying Crane]

Therefore, CMA does not have cobbled methods?

what are you trying to say?

 

[Instructor]

what are you trying to say?

My dad is better than your dad? Naaaa.

 

[WC_lun]

Flying rne, awsome post.

rickster, sure Chinese martial arts has cobbled together systems, like arts from any other country. They do not have set principles and conepts. The training methodology is lacking also. They are crap for self defense, like any other cobbled together system without those things. Country of origin makes no difference, there will always be charlatans out there.