martial arts fitness goal and objectives

[jobo]

just a muse really

its my experience that in order to get from point a to point b you need to understand what your objectives are and then to set achievable goals.

but that doesn't seem to happen much with fitness.
most of the people who suddenly elect to get fit, don't actually have a fitness objective. They have a body shape objective.
Every January the park and the gym is full of fat people trying to run, non of them are there in February. They have no interest at all in improving their running, they just want to lose wait. This mean almost inevitable failure, as to make any dent in your weight through running means you need to be very fit and good at running, if their goal was to run a half marathon, then by the time they were fit enough to do that, a considerable amount of weight would have,disappeared.

its the same with people who hit the weights, they want big arms or visible abs, which they will probably never get as their genetics' won't,co operate. If their objective was to get progressively stronger and they were prepared to put a,couple of years of effort in, they would reach their objective and have,a good muscles mass.

so then martial arts, looking at my own club I can see people who are doing martial arts for general fitness , with the possibility that they might be able to defend themselves.

and people who take the martial bit,seriously and are getting fit for martial arts ie to fight. They turn up to learn the techniques' with a bit of jumping about thrown in, they have all ready worked out multiple times that week, rather than the fitness lot who are attending for the exercise

the issue is after two years of attending they are no longer getting any,fitter, just maintaining what they,achieved in the first few months and as the techniques' require fitness at a high level to pull off, are not really learning,any meaning full fighting skills. They are to the most part waisting their time and would probably be better off jogging round the park

 

[Kenposcholar]

From what I have seen people tend to plateau if they start teaching more often at higher ranks. The time spent teaching takes away from the extra training resulting in fewer workout times. They also may have reached a reasonable goal and are content with where they are.

However, if you want to see progress I always suggest teaching/working on goal setting. By making your goals S.M.A.R.T (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Time Bound) you can make the gains much more doable & realistic. Using that in conjunction with the black belt success cycle you can really start knocking out goals. The key is you must be motivated to work hard. Without the motivation people are likely to never get close to completing their goal; therefore, rewarding yourself is also very important.

Black Belt Success Cycle
1. Know what you want
2. Have a Plan
3. Get a Coach
4. Take Consistent Action
5. Review your Progress
6. Set New Goals

 

[jobo]

From what I have seen people tend to plateau if they start teaching more often at higher ranks. The time spent teaching takes away from the extra training resulting in fewer workout times. They also may have reached a reasonable goal and are content with where they are.

However, if you want to see progress I always suggest teaching/working on goal setting. By making your goals S.M.A.R.T (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Time Bound) you can make the gains much more doable & realistic. Using that in conjunction with the black belt success cycle you can really start knocking out goals. The key is you must be motivated to work hard. Without the motivation people are likely to never get close to completing their goal; therefore, rewarding yourself is also very important.

Black Belt Success Cycle
1. Know what you want
2. Have a Plan
3. Get a Coach
4. Take Consistent Action
5. Review your Progress
6. Set New Goals

yes i agree, but the issue im highlighting is people do know what they want, they go about getting it in the wrong way. just as of they want to loose weight and they start running.
if they,are doing martial arts to improve fitness, it won't work beyond a few weeks as they will,do much the same physical activerty lesson after lesson
the grading system doesn't denote an ability to fight defend, so if thats their goal they won't achieve it through the ranks

if their goal is to be able to defend themselves, then point one applies as they won't have the required fitness to make it work

 

[Runs With Fire]

I do think alot of practitioners don't have a clear idea of what they realy want. Still, alot know a snapshot of what they want but can't see the full picture.

 

[Runs With Fire]

So then, clearly communicate your ideas of goals with a good instructor and they will help you to clearly define and visualize the steps to get there.

 

[jobo]

So then, clearly communicate your ideas of goals with a good instructor and they will help you to clearly define and visualize the steps to get there.

wouldn't that then require the instructor to be honest ?

student, yes I'm looking to get fit and loose weight,instructor,, this is clearly not the place not enough cardio. Try water arobics

student, I wont to be able to defend myself,, instructor,, yes we can do that, if you do the water aerobics and,are pretty sure that you wont be,attacked in the next 5 years

student,I want to learn to do horse stance for hours, get a black belt and I dont need to fight, I have a gun,
instructor , you come to the right place,son, sign here

 

[Touch Of Death]

I recommend the Horse Stance.

 

[kuniggety]

its the same with people who hit the weights, they want big arms or visible abs, which they will probably never get as their genetics' won't,co operate. If their objective was to get progressively stronger and they were prepared to put a,couple of years of effort in, they would reach their objective and have,a good muscles mass.

Some decent points but I don't agree here. People use genetics as an excuse but the reality is that most people don't get big and strong or six pack abs because they don't put in the work, not because of genetics. There are some people with random genetic disorders and yes they're the exception but by and large it's all based on effort.

From what I have seen people tend to plateau if they start teaching more often at higher ranks. The time spent teaching takes away from the extra training resulting in fewer workout times. They also may have reached a reasonable goal and are content with where they are.

This is the case when the instructor is just standing off to the side watching their students instead of participating with them, which is often in the case in traditional martial arts.

 

[jobo]

Some decent points but I don't agree here. People use genetics as an excuse but the reality is that most people don't get big and strong or six pack abs because they don't put in the work, not because of genetics. There are some people with random genetic disorders and yes they're the exception but by and large it's all based on effort.



This is the case when the instructor is just standing off to the side watching their students instead of participating with them, which is often in the case in traditional martial arts.

yes to a certain point, but some people have a genetic advantage and will achieve the same with less effort to much more with the same effort.
I have a six pack abb. This has taken no effort on my part, i dont really want them as I don't take my shirt of in public very often, they are therefore of no advantage to me.
I have them because no matter what i eat, I keep single figure body fat.
on the other hand I put a considerable amount of effort onto growing my biceps' and they won't co operate. Triceps blow up like a ballon, biceps just sit there

 

[kuniggety]

yes to a certain point, but some people have a genetic advantage and will achieve the same with less effort to much more with the same effort.

Sure, people can have advantages and disadvantages but this is different than saying someone will probably never get bigger arms or chiseled abs due to their genetics. They won't get the bigger arms or chiseled abs because they won't change their lifestyle: biggest culprit is diet but exercise to an extent too. I'm in the middle...I don't gain muscle super easy but I put in the work and am far from a stick. It took me a little over a year to get from a 810 big lift total (265 squat, 220 bench, 325 deadlift) to hopefully hitting 970 lbs next month (325 squat, 245 bench, 400 lbs deadlift).The same goes for body fat. I fluctuate somewhere in the teens for body fat percentage based off my diet. I'm not "naturally" a stick but if I make a concentrated effort to eat clean and at a caloric deficit, then my body fat gets lower. I enjoy my pizza, beer, and pancakes too much. I'm not blaming genetics... it's me eating at a caloric surplus.

 

[jobo]

Sure, people can have advantages and disadvantages but this is different than saying someone will probably never get bigger arms or chiseled abs due to their genetics. They won't get the bigger arms or chiseled abs because they won't change their lifestyle: biggest culprit is diet but exercise to an extent too. I'm in the middle...I don't gain muscle super easy but I put in the work and am far from a stick. It took me a little over a year to get from a 810 big lift total (265 squat, 220 bench, 325 deadlift) to hopefully hitting 970 lbs next month (325 squat, 245 bench, 400 lbs deadlift).The same goes for body fat. I fluctuate somewhere in the teens for body fat percentage based off my diet. I'm not "naturally" a stick but if I make a concentrated effort to eat clean and at a caloric deficit, then my body fat gets lower. I enjoy my pizza, beer, and pancakes too much. I'm not blaming genetics... it's me eating at a caloric surplus.

they may well get bigger arms, they just won't get BIG arms

 

[JR 137]

Sure, people can have advantages and disadvantages but this is different than saying someone will probably never get bigger arms or chiseled abs due to their genetics. They won't get the bigger arms or chiseled abs because they won't change their lifestyle: biggest culprit is diet but exercise to an extent too. I'm in the middle...I don't gain muscle super easy but I put in the work and am far from a stick. It took me a little over a year to get from a 810 big lift total (265 squat, 220 bench, 325 deadlift) to hopefully hitting 970 lbs next month (325 squat, 245 bench, 400 lbs deadlift).The same goes for body fat. I fluctuate somewhere in the teens for body fat percentage based off my diet. I'm not "naturally" a stick but if I make a concentrated effort to eat clean and at a caloric deficit, then my body fat gets lower. I enjoy my pizza, beer, and pancakes too much. I'm not blaming genetics... it's me eating at a caloric surplus.

Yes and no, IMO. Some people have to work harder at certain things than others. People "carry their weight" differently; they store body fat more in some places and less in others. Some people have stronger upper bodies or lower bodies than others.

I naturally have bigger (more muscle) arms, shoulders, and legs than a lot of other people. Sounds great, right? Well, no matter how many push-ups I do nor how much and how often I bench press, my chest just doesn't grow very much. And I've always carried more fat at my upper belly (my stomach sticks out further right under my ribs than at my navel), and under my arms at my sides (looks like side-boobs). All the men on my father's side are shaped the same way. None of them work out. No matter how much I work out and how well I eat, I've never really changed it much. Even when I was wrestling and was down to 6% body fat and strength training. I looked a lot better than I do now, but I still had the same "problem areas" (I never thought I'd ever say that ). And the only six pack I've ever been seen with is a six pack of beer, even at 6% body fat.

The way we're shaped is due to many factors; genetics is just one factor. It's too easy of an excuse that's used way too often, but it's a factor. Then there's physiological factors like thyroid output, cells' sensitivity to hormones, number of fat cells (we don't all have the same number of fat cells in the same places), and so on. Again, a lot of people love to exaggerate them as excuses, but they are definitely factors.

Then of course there's motivation, self confidence, mood, attitude, priorities, culture, family and work commitments, and on and on.

Then there's education. There's a lot of bad information out there that people have a difficult time wading through/deciphering. What we know about nutrition, physiology and exercise physiology changes so fast. What was great yesterday is horrible today, and will probably be good again in a modified way tomorrow. If professionals have a hard time keeping up, the general public is even more misinformed.

There's a ton of excuses out there. I've got more than my fair share. My total gym and BOB XL are collecting dust as we speak. There's some legitimate reasons why, and some piss poor excuses.

We've all got to play the cards we've been dealt. Some of us were dealt one that are easier to play, and some us us really need to work those cards. But in the end, there's no substitute for hard work.

 

[kuniggety]

Yes and no, IMO. Some people have to work harder at certain things than others. People "carry their weight" differently;

We've all got to play the cards we've been dealt. Some of us were dealt one that are easier to play, and some us us really need to work those cards. But in the end, there's no substitute for hard work.

Yeah, everything you're saying I agree with. My main thing is people saying they're "big boned". It's like... no, you're just fat. People use genetics as way too much of an excuse. So you have to work harder? Yup, it means you have to work harder at something and not that it can't be done. I wish I was one of the people who could throw back 5000 calories a day... long gone are those days.

 

[jobo]

Sure, people can have advantages and disadvantages but this is different than saying someone will probably never get bigger arms or chiseled abs due to their genetics. They won't get the bigger arms or chiseled abs because they won't change their lifestyle: biggest culprit is diet but exercise to an extent too. I'm in the middle...I don't gain muscle super easy but I put in the work and am far from a stick. It took me a little over a year to get from a 810 big lift total (265 squat, 220 bench, 325 deadlift) to hopefully hitting 970 lbs next month (325 squat, 245 bench, 400 lbs deadlift).The same goes for body fat. I fluctuate somewhere in the teens for body fat percentage based off my diet. I'm not "naturally" a stick but if I make a concentrated effort to eat clean and at a caloric deficit, then my body fat gets lower. I enjoy my pizza, beer, and pancakes too much. I'm not blaming genetics... it's me eating at a caloric surplus.

those are quite impressive numbers, I cant give mine as I train al fresco using mostly body weight and rocks fallen trees,etc.

so on the topic of the thread, have you concluded that having well above average strengh is a martial arts goal? .
I ask because when I put that forward a few months ago I was met by a wave of hostility from people claiming strengh was of little benefit and their techneque would trump a much stronger attacker every time.

I suspect this is the martial arts equivalent of fat people claiming they are big boned, ie just a justification for a lack of training

 

[Touch Of Death]

those are quite impressive numbers, I cant give mine as I train al fresco using mostly body weight and rocks fallen trees,etc.

so on the topic of the thread, have you concluded that having well above average strengh is a martial arts goal? .
I ask because when I put that forward a few months ago I was met by a wave of hostility from people claiming strengh was of little benefit and their techneque would trump a much stronger attacker every time.

I suspect this is the martial arts equivalent of fat people claiming they are big boned, ie just a justification for a lack of training

I get the concept. Big, is dangerous, but if I keep flanking you, and you don't have the skill to deal with that, what good does being big do you?

 

[jobo]

I get the concept. Big, is dangerous, but if I keep flanking you, and you don't have the skill to deal with that, what good does being big do you?

but some of those big people can fight as well.

but the point was,strengh not just size, you can get well above average strengh with out being exceptionlly big, certainly not to the point where your size ieffects your mobility

 

[kuniggety]

those are quite impressive numbers, I cant give mine as I train al fresco using mostly body weight and rocks fallen trees,etc.

so on the topic of the thread, have you concluded that having well above average strengh is a martial arts goal? .
I ask because when I put that forward a few months ago I was met by a wave of hostility from people claiming strengh was of little benefit and their techneque would trump a much stronger attacker every time.

I suspect this is the martial arts equivalent of fat people claiming they are big boned, ie just a justification for a lack of training

If I was 5'9" and 150 lbs I think those would be impressive numbers but I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs. for a guy my size, that's only a 2x BWT deadlift for example. When my bench gets closer to 300, squat 400, and deadlif 500, I would say I'd be "strong" for my size... but that will take several more years of lifting.

I grapple and I do consistently get remarks of people saying how tough or strong I am. I tend to wind up sparring with people smaller than me though, I so I'm flat out winding up with a size and strength advantage. I think the argument of strength vs skill is that I will still get manhandled by folks who are smaller than me but much better skill... i.e. A BJJ brown belt or black belt (although I can sometimes give brown belts a hard time). All things equal skill wise, the bigger and stronger guy will have a distinct advantage.

 

[jobo]

If I was 5'9" and 150 lbs I think those would be impressive numbers but I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs. for a guy my size, that's only a 2x BWT deadlift for example. When my bench gets closer to 300, squat 400, and deadlif 500, I would say I'd be "strong" for my size... but that will take several more years of lifting.

I grapple and I do consistently get remarks of people saying how tough or strong I am. I tend to wind up sparring with people smaller than me though, I so I'm flat out winding up with a size and strength advantage. I think the argument of strength vs skill is that I will still get manhandled by folks who are smaller than me but much better skill... i.e. A BJJ brown belt or black belt (although I can sometimes give brown belts a hard time). All things equal skill wise, the bigger and stronger guy will have a distinct advantage.

no you are being hard on yourself, against the normal population you are very strong, set against,serious,strengh trainers you have a way to go. But they are a very small% of the population.
when looking at your own development, its not the,clichéd argument of strengh v skill. It's your skill with a greater strengh that under consideration. If your skill level is constant, would be stronger make you a better fighter and the answer I believe is most certainly

 

[Gerry Seymour]

just a muse really

its my experience that in order to get from point a to point b you need to understand what your objectives are and then to set achievable goals.

but that doesn't seem to happen much with fitness.
most of the people who suddenly elect to get fit, don't actually have a fitness objective. They have a body shape objective.
Every January the park and the gym is full of fat people trying to run, non of them are there in February. They have no interest at all in improving their running, they just want to lose wait. This mean almost inevitable failure, as to make any dent in your weight through running means you need to be very fit and good at running, if their goal was to run a half marathon, then by the time they were fit enough to do that, a considerable amount of weight would have,disappeared.

its the same with people who hit the weights, they want big arms or visible abs, which they will probably never get as their genetics' won't,co operate. If their objective was to get progressively stronger and they were prepared to put a,couple of years of effort in, they would reach their objective and have,a good muscles mass.

so then martial arts, looking at my own club I can see people who are doing martial arts for general fitness , with the possibility that they might be able to defend themselves.

and people who take the martial bit,seriously and are getting fit for martial arts ie to fight. They turn up to learn the techniques' with a bit of jumping about thrown in, they have all ready worked out multiple times that week, rather than the fitness lot who are attending for the exercise

the issue is after two years of attending they are no longer getting any,fitter, just maintaining what they,achieved in the first few months and as the techniques' require fitness at a high level to pull off, are not really learning,any meaning full fighting skills. They are to the most part waisting their time and would probably be better off jogging round the park

I think part of the issue is a lack of definition (pun intended) for "fitness. If someone comes to my classes to improve their fitness level, they will. And they will plateau. That doesn't mean a failure, though, if they just want a higher level of fitness than they have. The plateau is actually them maintaining that new level.

But back to your point. If they don't défine "fitness", they may not get what they want. Coming to my classes would have marginal impact on the ability to run distance or squat heavy weights. The activity will raise most people's overall fitness level (parts of it were designed with that end in mind), but aren't likely to reach most specific goals.

 

[jobo]

I think part of the issue is a lack of definition (pun intended) for "fitness. If someone comes to my classes to improve their fitness level, they will. And they will plateau. That doesn't mean a failure, though, if they just want a higher level of fitness than they have. The plateau is actually them maintaining that new level.

But back to your point. If they don't défine "fitness", they may not get what they want. Coming to my classes would have marginal impact on the ability to run distance or squat heavy weights. The activity will raise most people's overall fitness level (parts of it were designed with that end in mind), but aren't likely to reach most specific goals.

fitness is an ability to do,,
if you go to a lab they will assess it by measuring your vo2 max, ie your ability to metabolise oxygen, with out which most of your doing will be very in effective ,
at a more general level it must involve the basic elements of human activerty, so that's cardio,strengh, endurance, co ordination balance speed mobility/ flexability. If your not providing them with a method to improve all them then you are,dropping short on providing them with general fitness ,

in a martial context, then if you sent providing them with the above in a ratio that applicable to the,style of fighting, then you are again selling them short

people don't plateau, that's a biological impossibility, they are either very slowly improving or very slowly reducing in fitness' ( as defined above) and if they have," plateau" because the exercise's are no longer,challenging them, then they are reducing in fitness and will do so, till they reach a level were the exercise's again,challenge them