Martial arts as language

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Martial D

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I just watched this video, it sparked some thought. Perhaps it will spark some discussion as well.

 

Graywalker

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I just watched this video, it sparked some thought. Perhaps it will spark some discussion as well.

I never really understood why people think that traditional martial arts, does not train in the way this clip shows.

I started in 1984 and we did this type of training in Karate. You don't train completely by forms.

Really this nonsense has gotten old.
 
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I dont really agree with the analogy. Nothing says that ones training had to become useless or be diluted into being misunderstood or something like that. Skills that are based on outside stimilu like fighting need to adapt with the times. when firearms were devoloped, tactics and fighting changed to accomindate, (and accomidate the abilities of them). As violence trends change and new things crop up and old things die training has to change to facilitate valid skills.

TMA has largely been taken over by cultrual preservation and preservation of a martial system in one time frame, competing against constantly adapting ones. Hisotrical study and keeping it valid are directly contary to each other. there is only a thin pool of things that actually work, so to stop everything looking the same they had to keep their cultrual flair from a peroid where it was active.


That was kind of rambly so before i make it more so and there is hopefully a point i am going to stop rambling now. Just going to leave it on, if karateka had acces to heavy bags in 1600, dont you think they would use them for training?


Addendum: and as far as i know, Latin didnt really die, it amalgimated and diluted into diffrent langauge forms. The pure version slowly faded out of common use. (still in use in some context, ie relgious usage)
 
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JowGaWolf

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I just watched this video, it sparked some thought. Perhaps it will spark some discussion as well.


I usually like this guy and he usually speaks some wisdom, but he really missed this one. Latin isn't a dead language, is is the standard for science, math, and the medical field. That's what they use to communicate with. Look at the scientific names for animals. If you really want someone to understand what you mean when you describe a type of dog, then the best way to communicate that is with Latino

Spanish is also Latin based. I guess one can say that Spanish is one of the evolutions of Latin.

It's sort of like science. Scientist discover new things by exploring what they know and understand beyond what was taught in school. TMA should be the same way. Take what you know explore it and expand on that knowledge. He says this about TMA but we often see TMA techniques used in MMA, T

he biggest difference is that not everyone take TMA to learn how to fight. So if your aren't taking it to learn how to fight then you won't have any need to explore it or to advance it. And don't think the "Kung Fu Masters" didn't explore and evolve martial arts. There's evidence of that all over the place.

As far as "Traditions not saving you.... Like Latin won't help you in an interview." Well I know with out a doubt. If you are going into the medical or science field then you better know your latin. It may not give you a conversation but it will be the core of things like Biology and Chemistry.
Italian, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Romanian, Catalan, Romansh, and other Romance languages are direct descendants of Latin.)

People who train hard and correctly to use a TMA system as a functional system will put the hurt on people just like other trained fighters do. Here's something that all TMA practitioners who want functional TMA training. If you train consistently and get your belts, and promotions, and the only thing you have to say is. "I only gained the trust of my teacher to pass on tradition" then you have clearly trained the wrong way for function. Training a lot of different TMA's and getting TMA belts has nothing to do with knowing how to apply the techniques in a functional manner. The funny thing about is I have never had a TMA teacher or met a TMA teacher who made such a claim.
 

jobo

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I just watched this video, it sparked some thought. Perhaps it will spark some discussion as well.

theres a couple of enormass strawmen in that,

one Latin IS NOT a dead language it used extensively in strangely enough Italy, so much so that Italian is really a second language to a large section of the population

and TWO, yes im training to fight ( relative) weaklings who are themselves untrained, because that 90 odd % of the population.

i work on getting stronger, as that makes them comparably weaker and i have no great anticipation of being attacked at random by a trained fighter ( at a good level), what do they make up as a % of the male population 1% 2% ? cant be much more, im more worried about cyclists who are a) aggressive idiots and two have fantastic cardio

people who have a penchant for violence are fine, as thats me as well when i decided its appropriate
 
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jobo

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:hilarious::hilarious::hilarious:

This is complete nonsense.

Source: I'm Italian.
clearly not one of the ones who converse in crude Latin

" Italian """ wasnt even the languidge till Mussolini said it was, what did they use before that?

source,,,, history, try it
 
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Martial D

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Hmm. All replies from longtime tma guys unhappy with content of video. Mental gymnastics engaged.

Sunk cost is real
 
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Martial D

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A better analogy than language is religion maybe.

Tmas seek answers to any problems in their 'good books' (forms/katas/syllabus) and will seldom stray from that, having only faith it is true(seldom scrutinized or tested)

While modern martial arts have no good books, only problem solving methods(science) and test everything extensively.
 
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Martial D

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its a nonsense argument he is making
Lol says the guy they speak latin in italy and mussolini invented italian.

Anyway.. if you can't understand the analogy that's fine. I don't think anyone expected you to.
 

O'Malley

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clearly not one of the ones who converse in crude Latin

" Italian """ wasnt even the languidge till Mussolini said it was, what did they use before that?

source,,,, history, try it

Italian's been around at least since the 1300s. In any case, before italian started to spread, people spoke local dialects, not Latin. This is painfully ignorant. Please learn about the topic: History of Italian Language: From the Origins to the Present Day
 

drop bear

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I usually like this guy and he usually speaks some wisdom, but he really missed this one. Latin isn't a dead language, is is the standard for science, math, and the medical field. That's what they use to communicate with. Look at the scientific names for animals. If you really want someone to understand what you mean when you describe a type of dog, then the best way to communicate that is with Latino

Exept no. The best way to describe a dog is to call it a dog if you wanted to describe it to as many people as possible.

I mean you might feel superior saying Canis lupus familiaris, but most people wouldn't understand what you were on about.
 
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Martial D

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Exept no. The best way to describe a dog is to call it a dog if you wanted to describe it to as many people as possible.
It's partially that, but more. Language is living, it evolves and adapts. Nobody is creating new words in latin to adapt to new concepts, that's why it's a 'dead' language.

Just as nobody is adapting new techniques to tmas. They aren't 'alive'.
 

drop bear

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People who train hard and correctly to use a TMA system as a functional system will put the hurt on people just like other trained fighters do. Here's something that all TMA practitioners who want functional TMA training.

Here is my issue. Is that he lumps TMA in to this stagnant thing. And admittedly he then defines his definition of TMA. But most people are going to use their own definitions anyway. And then start strawmaning.
 

drop bear

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It's partially that, but more. Language is living, it evolves and adapts. Nobody is creating new words in latin to adapt to new concepts, that's why it's a 'dead' language.

Just as nobody is adapting new techniques to tmas. They aren't 'alive'.

Yeah. The specific methodology of tma he is describing you are correct.

Where even say historical re-enactment which should be the pointy tip of that ideal don't seem to do that. Which is kind of weird.

So let's look at Western action shooting. And they are using modern shooting methods.


So it is traditional but doesn't fall in to the scope of the critique from Ramsey.

Where Ironically you can get more dogma and myth from modern tactical shooting. And that would fall in to Ramsay's critique.
 
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jobo

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Italian's been around at least since the 1300s. In any case, before italian started to spread, people spoke local dialects, not Latin. This is painfully ignorant. Please learn about the topic: History of Italian Language: From the Origins to the Present Day
Italian was one of the local dialects foisted on an an unwilling population, so yes it's been around a long time, but not as Italian, its not a real country, as it doesnt have a common languidge, it's got a preposterous number of languidge, thirty or some silly number, that's why it's so dysfunctional economically, no one knows what anyone else is saying

the rest of the population spoke and still speak in dialects, totally alien to italian and CRUDE latin,

have you ever actually been ? im use to Americans have no idea about there own history, but at least they have spent time there
 
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O'Malley

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Italian was one of the local dialects foisted on an an unwilling population, so yes it's been around a long time, but not as Italian, its not a real country, as it doesnt have a common languidge, it's got a preposterous number of languidge, thirty or some silly number, that's why it's so dysfunctional economically, no one knows what anyone else is saying

the rest of the population spoke and still speak in dialects, totally alien to italian and CRUDE latin,

have you ever actually been ? im use to Americans have no idea about there own history, but at least they have spent time there

Firstly, you obviously have no clue of what you're talking about. This goes for your "comments" on Italian language and on my own background, as both are pulled out of your anal cavity.

Secondly, political talk (the part in bold) is prohibited on MT.

So avoid further embarrassing yourself and shut up.
 

jobo

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Firstly, you obviously have no clue of what you're talking about. This goes for your "comments" on Italian language and on my own background, as both are pulled out of your anal cavity.

Secondly, political talk (the part in bold) is prohibited on MT.

So avoid further embarrassing yourself and shut up.
I'm not sure the near 100 year old history of a made up country is 7under the heading of political, but hey, you started the conversation by quoting me, if you want it to stop, stop taking part, its easy
 
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