Martial Arts and the law

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Despairbear

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Greetings all,
Here is my thought; I was talking to a friend of mine who has served as a police officer for many years and he was telling me that a knowlage of martial arts tends to work aginst you in a court of law. When the subject of "self defence" comes up martial artists tend to be charged with assault more often than a non-martial artist in a similer situation. The thougt behind this as I understand it is that a martial artist should be able to defend himself with more controll (AKA: with out harming the person attacking you). I think this stems from a lack of understanding about martial arts, some one who has a black belt in "whatever" is not bullet proof but is often seen that way by people who have no martial training. Too many "Kung-foo" movies I guess. Any thoughts questions comments?



Despair Bear
 

Jay Bell

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Hey Despair,

I think it's honestly pretty tragic. It's another statement of the public not understanding training or what's involved. Seagal can walk into a mansion full of armed guards and clean house. We can't.

I had a friend that was attacked by a man with a knife. The result was that the attacker ended up with a broken elbow. (Which..by law is a sound defense for such a situation in Arizona). The friend ended up in a courtroom fighting jailtime. He eventually was found not guilty in the trial, but the fact that it got that far as all was sad.
 
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Rubber Ducky

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Despair Bear,

There's a volume of mythology around martial arts and the law - see some recent threads on "registering your hands" (and yes, I have a friend who had a black belt as a kid who swore he had to. Guess he misunderstood what all the laughing was about).

Anyhow, if the prosecutor has a bug up his *** about you he will try to use the fact that you know martial arts against you, but there is no legal precedent for this kind of stuff. At least not in Canada. The press loves it though "He was a street lethal black belt!"

Hell, claim helplessness: "My martial art is so deadly that the least I could do was break his arm in 4 places"; "I've been trained to be so deadly that I can't respond any other way, onnest!"

It all comes down to the "reasonable man" doctrine; did you go no further than a "reasonable man" in your situation would have done.

If that fails, fight your appeal on the basis that the jury didn't consist solely of "Fists of Death" blackbelts. You deserve a jury of your peers.

:)

Pierre
 

Jay Bell

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You deserve a jury of your peers.

I agree. Unfortunately, more often then not, those peers are the ones who have the entire Jet Li and Steven Seagal collection in their video library.
 
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GouRonin

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There is a school right here in town that used to get their students to pay to have their hands registered when they achieved black belt. They were told that if they got in trouble they would be looked at more seriously than anyone without a black belt.

It's shame when I pointed out that they spent some money on that nice piece of paper.
:asian:
 

Jay Bell

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My ex-Kenpo instructor made us all "register our hands" when we achieved Shodan. Imagine my surprise as a teenager walking into the Police Department to inquire and they looked at me like I was on drugs.. :D (and chuckled quite a bit)
 
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IFAJKD

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Oh when will all the "registering of hands" stuff end. Seriously you have to look at a fight in steps of two. the fight on the street and the fight in court. It would be nice to correlate all the decisions on this in past to post as an informative web site for just such situations. A place where martial artists and attorneys representing them could go to get the facts as it panned out in many other cases.
 

masherdong

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Do you really have to register your hands when you are a BB? If so, I need to do that soon!
 

punisher73

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It's not just MA that this happens with. If you look at a lot of "self-defense" cases you whether they be firearm or not, you will see that A LOT depends on who the prosecutor is in your county and what his/her agenda is.

An attorney will use anything against you that they can, a good attorney will counter that with logic that you were trained so you gave an appropriate response to the situation and be able to articulate how the force was escalated and how you didn't use too much.


As a side note, I think the "registering of hands" started because after WW2 all people in Japan were required to register with the local police dept. So when people went looking to find karate instructors they were all registered with the police, and somewhere along the line it became that. I have no proof of this just my personal theory on how/why it might have started.
 

terryl965

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GouRonin said:
There is a school right here in town that used to get their students to pay to have their hands registered when they achieved black belt. They were told that if they got in trouble they would be looked at more seriously than anyone without a black belt.

It's shame when I pointed out that they spent some money on that nice piece of paper.
:asian:
First off they can't register there hand as deadly weapon that is a myth from the seventies. What a joke sorry i could not resist.
 

Gray Phoenix

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Any type of training or knowledge will elevate you to a higher standard. This is why parents tell their older kids, "You should have known better". MA training is misunderstood, but we can control ourselves better. But, that doesnt mean I wont separate a head from a body if the situation calls for it.:whip:
 

Sin

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In America there is a something called the good samaritan law. Witch states, if you are a trained first aid person and you have been certified to be a first aid person, you can help the injured/sick in times of emergency without risk of being charged with a crime in case the person is injured and/or dies. whats my point? well if we are trained in martial arts we should have the training to know how much force is needed, in case of a conflict, (If you where trained well) that being said there needs to be a law that states, any person trained in a martial art and is the holder of a black belt, has the training and the self-control to defend themselves and others in times of necesary violence, and knows how much force is necessary for the reolution of the conflict. this should be possible, because there are permits to carry concealed weapons, there are permits to own military assult class weapons, as long as you have had the proper training, witch in the two cases I mentioned, its only about a 4 hour long class. And MA you train for years to get your BB. The injustice these days
 

ginshun

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I don't know how much most MA classes talk about this stuff, but at ours we talk about it quite a bit. Like it or not, I think that martial artists are held to a higher standard of sorts. Which is why, like someone else said, we have to have more control and be more careful. That is just the way it is.

And like someone else said, it probably depends more on the prsecuter than anything. They are going to try to use whatever they can against you.

I also think though, that if you are aware of this, the situation can be somewhat defused as soon as it happens. Just last night we were doing a series of moves, that, if the situation called for it ended in a wrist break. After we practiced the series of moves for a while, we discussed what should be done next. The whole situation may take place in the span of a few seconds, and after the persons wrist is broke, and you run away. Then what next? The opinion of most of the class as well as the instuctor was that as soon as you are safe, you should probably call the police yourself.

"I was just in a attacked by a guy, I am ok and I was so scared that I think I may have borken his wrist. He is at this location, you should send a squad and an ambulance"

If you are telling the truth, I think this makes the situation a lot better for you, than if you just take off and do nothing.

What do you guys think?
 

Sin

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Life protection is the key to Martial Arts, and you want to use the least force necessary.......your Idea is wonderful, its better that you show no bitterness and hope the guy has a speedy recovery. Seems like you have some experince with this situation.
 

ginshun

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Sin said:
Life protection is the key to Martial Arts, and you want to use the least force necessary.......your Idea is wonderful, its better that you show no bitterness and hope the guy has a speedy recovery. Seems like you have some experince with this situation.
I don't have any first hand experience in a situation like this, but like I said, it is something we discuss in nearly every training session. A lot of the moves in our art have the potentional to break wrists, elbows ect if you do them hard enough. Depending on the situation this may be called for and it may not. We often have discussions on how the same basic technique could be used to deal with drunken buddy that could be used in a life threatening situation, and part of being a martial artist is assessing the situation and deciding how much force is needed. For what I have gathered this is the case with most martial arts. Knowing this, I think that part of being a martial artist is having a plan for what to do with the situation, even after you are out of physical danger, not just during the fight itself.
 
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lvwhitebir

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What it boils down to is the law believes, and it's true, you should have the training to know the potential damage that can result from your actions. Yes, it can happen to untrained individuals too but you're much more trained. Therefore, you have to show that your actions were warrented. Statements (and the belief) such as "I feared for my life" and "I did only what I had to to escape" will go far in showing your innocense and attempt to avoid the conflict. Statements like "he pushed me so I smashed in his nose" will get you convicted.

Your training should therefore encourage you to avoid physical conflict at all costs and only use it to enable your escape.

Unfortunately, the majority of people that are convicted of a crime plead that it was "self defense" even if it was some back-alley brawl that they participated in instead of avoiding.

Two things are important regarding your actions against someone:
1) Can you claim self-defense?
2) Is your response the least amount necessary to escape the situation?

Three rules to claim self-defense:
1) Immediate threat - can't beat somebody up if they say they'll kill you tomorrow
2) Believable threat - can't beat up a 3-year-old if he says he'll kill you
3) No escape possible - can't shoot a guy driving by in your car if he say's he'll kill you

Unless you can claim all three, you will probably be convicted.

WhiteBirch
 

Sin

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A lot of it is just plain and simple commen since though.....if you can get out of a sutuation then do so...But a word or warning, NEVER TURN YOUR BACK...I made that mistake one time and I regreted it, although the guy didn't like it either
 

masherdong

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I feel that we are trained to get out of those situations before they occur. I also feel that I should defend myself if I feel that my life is threatened. We are also trained to know when to stop. The law know this and this is why they are so strict against MA's.
 

jkn75

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Remember, even if you defend yourself, you are in the right, and did everything right, you could be in the back of a police car, even in the situation mentioned by ginshun. The police are going to investigate and gather facts so the prosecutor or grand jury can proceed.

If you find yourself in the court room, your defense should have an expert witness to explain the role martial arts played in the case, what your training was, and how it affected your response.

Also, this is just the criminal side where the jury needs to be 99.9% sure you did something wrong as opposed to the civil where it's only 51%. Don't forget OJ.
 

DuneViking

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Great discussion!

Its true too, MAs have to be extra cautious. If you disarm your opponent, he may no longer be a threat, but look at the situation and what answers you might have. If the attacker moves toward the weapon, he might become a threat again. There is no substitute for legal counsel and experience in this matter-that might make a great seminar too!
 

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