man beats toddler to death, witnesses fail to stop him

[sgtmac_46]

Have you ever been in a situation even loosely comparable?

It's easy to criticise with 20/20 hindsight. It's easy from the safety of the keyboard to say what you "would have done!" It ain't so easy in the real world.

It seems people made some effort to intervene, though it was unsuccessful. Having been one of 4 strong cops trying to drag a cuffed individual out of house, and it taking all 4 of us to do so -- I know that it's not always so simple to take someone down. I don't know what's been found in the suspect's bloods. The accounts I read strongly suggest that there probably was a nice cocktail of drugs -- or he was just plain off his rocker. Either is sufficient to make a person much harder to control.

I applaud the folks for trying -- even if all they did was yell at him or call 911.

It's very simple....if you stand by and watch as a grown man beats a two year old to death, you DO NOT DESERVE to ever be able look at yourself in the mirror again! It's that simple! If your ONLY contribution is simply to act as a SUBSTITUTE for this guy to beat on for a while, THAT IS WHAT YOU DO!

Yes, we don't always know in the moment of truth if we will become spineless cowards....but lets not kid ourselves in to thinking that isn't what we are if we fail that test! Better yet, lets 'screw our courage to the sticking place' and commit to NOT failing that test if it's ever in front of us, EVEN IF IT COSTS US OUR LIVES!

These folks deserve SHAME! They deserve shame so we as men know what society EXPECTS FROM US!


I often hear a lot of 'Well, you never know what you'll do until your in the situation, blah, blah, blah'........But I DO KNOW what I would....Why? BECAUSE I COULD NEVER LIVE WITH MYSELF IF I DID OTHERWISE! EVER! I'd rather DIE there than live with the image of that small child being beaten! So it's not a CHOICE for ME!

 

[tellner]

From the Czech Republic via The Telegraph. The least horrible part of the article is reproduced below:

Mauerova had the monitor installed so that she could watch the abuse from her kitchen but the images were picked up by a neighbour who used an identical system to monitor a newborn baby, the regional court in Brno has heard.

Here's hoping the Czech's have some sort of old, old laws still on the books for dealing with werewolves.

 

[Sukerkin]

Some nights, ladies and gentlemen, I am aghast at what we humans can do to each other. It makes the word "humane" an ironic commentary .

 

[MA-Caver]

Some nights, ladies and gentlemen, I am aghast at what we humans can do to each other. It makes the word "humane" an ironic commentary .

Agreed but at the same time it's not as surprising as horrifying.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

From the Czech Republic via The Telegraph. The least horrible part of the article is reproduced below:



Here's hoping the Czech's have some sort of old, old laws still on the books for dealing with werewolves.

Oh yeah.

If ever there were a bunch of Czechs that needed to be cancelled, they are the ones. :rpo:

 

[tellner]

Moreover, if your only physical capability is to simply **** this guy off enough to start beating YOU and give the kid some respite THAT IS WHAT YOU DO!!!

It is what you would do. It is what I would do. We made what Mr. Ayoob calls the Decision a long time ago. The rest follows immediately from that.

Most people aren't mentally or emotionally prepared to do it.I'm perfectly willing, but I can't require that someone else sacrifice his life for a stranger, especially if he or she doesn't believe it will make a difference.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

But then, we're sheepdogs. Not everyone is, or can be.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It is what you would do. It is what I would do. We made what Mr. Ayoob calls the Decision a long time ago. The rest follows immediately from that.

Most people aren't mentally or emotionally prepared to do it.I'm perfectly willing, but I can't require that someone else sacrifice his life for a stranger, especially if he or she doesn't believe it will make a difference.

And those who fail in that situation should be shamed so that the rest of society knows what to expect from them.

 

[ares]

Sukerkin, I apologize for sounding so angry. I have been in a situation where I have had to subdue a person. In a police situation you must follow procedures, but I strongly feel that if other people stepped up even for a short time, then someone could have removed the child from that event and thus possibly prevented that child's death. In the situation I was in, the person was high on cocaine and was trying to beat me down with a hatchet. I used whatever I could to stop this person and when it was all over and the dust settled, this person got help and is now a great father to his children and is still my BROTHER. Calling the police was a good thing, but I would gladly put myself into harms way time and time again to help a child in need.

 

[Sukerkin]

Hi Ares, there was nothing to be regretful about in the honesty of your emotions.

The topic inherently draws such from us - or at least I would hope that most people would feel at least some of that which you expressed.

 

[tellner]

But then, we're sheepdogs. Not everyone is, or can be.

Speak fer yerself. I'm a giant frog with tentacles

 

[MA-Caver]

Sukerkin, I apologize for sounding so angry. I have been in a situation where I have had to subdue a person. In a police situation you must follow procedures, but I strongly feel that if other people stepped up even for a short time, then someone could have removed the child from that event and thus possibly prevented that child's death. In the situation I was in, the person was high on cocaine and was trying to beat me down with a hatchet. I used whatever I could to stop this person and when it was all over and the dust settled, this person got help and is now a great father to his children and is still my BROTHER. Calling the police was a good thing, but I would gladly put myself into harms way time and time again to help a child in need.

Some afterthoughts here... while it would indeed be a noble thing to step up and distract the man from beating the child enough so that until law enforcement arrives; but think about this... how EASY is it to kill a child with a single blow or kick? Even picking it up and letting it go and dropping it to the pavement is enough. Even if the child hadn't died immediately it's damage to the brain is probably severe enough that it would probably die after some time in the hospital.
Now I'm not saying that the guy shouldn't have been stopped at all. Of course he should've. Striking/kicking/dropping a young child like that even once is enough cause to beat him to a bloody pulp. What this man was doing was basically rendering the body of the child who was probably already dead by the second or third blow to a bloody mass that not even the LEO on the scene was able to recognize it as a human baby. It may have been the intensity of the attack that frightened people enough to stay away. Would you try to physically restrain a wildly snarling, snapping, foaming pit bull?
Yet the man wasn't crazed. He was doing it all calmly and even politely explained to the officer and people what he was doing. That can be just as frightening.
Rightly the officer shot/killed him. A trial would've been a waste. Chances are after the attack and subsequent arrest he'd probably would've receded enough into his mind so far that his eyes would've been nothing more than blank stares. Gone, outta the game permanently and wasting oxygen.

 

[Ahriman]

"Yet the man wasn't crazed. He was doing it all calmly and even politely explained to the officer and people what he was doing. That can be just as frightening."
Sounds like some mental disorder, most likely psychopathy (or "antisocial mental disorder" if you wish). People hate when I do this. It is frightening for sure to those who are "normal". Against a psycho you should do everything with extreme care - but you should do what you must nonetheless.
"Would you try to physically restrain a wildly snarling, snapping, foaming pit bull?"
Cleaving the head of an attacking German shepherd into two counts? I love dogs as long as they aren't running full speed towards me barking and foaming. Even with this I held back as long as it was safe. I love dogs.
...
It doesn't matter that after the murder we know that the child was most likely dead after the first blow. "Most likely" doesn't mean "for sure". If the attacker would've been stopped in time, the kid may have survived. Even being partially or totally paralized is better than being dead.

 

[KenpoTex]

It may have been the intensity of the attack that frightened people enough to stay away. Would you try to physically restrain a wildly snarling, snapping, foaming pit bull?

Yes I would. When I was about 10, armed only with a pocketknife, I came within a few seconds of tackling a pitbull that was attacking my little brother. Thankfully for all concerned (since a 10-year-old is probably no match for a pit, knife or not), the owner was able to get to the dog before I did and pull it off. My brother was okay, when the dog knocked him down, it grabbed his foot and the sole of his shoe prevented any punctures (though he had some nasty bruises). Not trying to pat myself on the back but the point is, I didn't think about it, I saw the dog hit him and I was already moving that way with my knife in my hand. There was no question as to whether I was going to get myself hurt or not.

I'd like to believe that if I had witnessed this incident, that piece of filth would have gone down whether I was armed or not.

 

[Sukerkin]

I too have experienced that innate reaction, Tex, the one where you simply act and give no thought to the consequences. In my case it was when a Rottweiler attacked my Border Collie when we were out for a walk with my cousin.

I laid into that Rottie with the walking stick that I had, my cousin used his feet and Pip (my dog) used the weapons nature gave her. In retrospect we were daft; that Rottie could've made a hell of a mess of us. But it is useful as an example of how powerful the urge to 'defend' can be.

 

[MA-Caver]

I too have experienced that innate reaction, Tex, the one where you simply act and give no thought to the consequences. In my case it was when a Rottweiler attacked my Border Collie when we were out for a walk with my cousin.

I laid into that Rottie with the walking stick that I had, my cousin used his feet and Pip (my dog) used the weapons nature gave her. In retrospect we were daft; that Rottie could've made a hell of a mess of us. But it is useful as an example of how powerful the urge to 'defend' can be.

Yes indeed... and even more so when it's your own. Child, dog, cat whatever. We've seem to become a society that is more towards protecting our own than some others. You read stories about how houses get robbed while the neighbors are next door hearing (or not hearing) something and calling the police. People walking by a robbery or watching from across the street.
The good Samaritan syndrome I call it. Like that video of the man who got hit by a car and dozens of people and cars went by and nobody helping.

Was it in the case of this child? Or was it because the scene was so horrific that people just were rooted to the spot trying to believe what their eyes were telling them? Did they really want to help but just were too shocked to move/react? Or was it deep down inside "it's not my kid" but a little closer to the surface "let the police handle this one" and even deeper down in the darkest recesses of the soul... a fascination?

 

[jks9199]

Was it in the case of this child? Or was it because the scene was so horrific that people just were rooted to the spot trying to believe what their eyes were telling them? Did they really want to help but just were too shocked to move/react? Or was it deep down inside "it's not my kid" but a little closer to the surface "let the police handle this one" and even deeper down in the darkest recesses of the soul... a fascination?

The last several posts seem to have missed an important detail. There is every indication that at least some of these passerby made some sort of effort to stop the monster or at least called 911. In short -- they did SOMETHING. Perhaps it wasn't the aggressive, violent intervention that many hear believe they would do -- but they weren't simply passive observers, either. To use Dave Grossman's label -- not everyone can be a sheepdog, and even sheepdogs sometimes have to hold back.

As I said before, I applaud anyone who took any positive action, rather than simply staring.

 

[tellner]

To hell with the charismatic megafauna!

We're not wolves or sheepdogs or sheep.

We're oversexed large-headed bald apes with bad posture.

We're not stuck. Nothing forces any of us to be prey. It means we are all members of the troop and all have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our mates from danger. Sometimes the danger is from lions or snakes. Sometimes it's from other bands of apes or a chimp in our own band who is a threat to the rest.

In the wild some apes cower. Most run away - the smart ones - when it's an alternative. Wouldn't you climb a tree or hide in the thick part of the canopy if it kept the tiger or eagle from getting you? That's not cowardice, it's common sense.

But every grown ape in the troop is ready to defend the rest. Even barely grown knuckle-walkers who don't have offspring of their own spend time on guard duty, risking their lives for the safety of others.

In species like chimps which have war the males all participate. And the boss chimps had darned well better be out there in front on raids. Nobody "leads" by standing back and ordering his brothers and cousins to die.

And when one crosses the line everyone drives him away. Oh sure, the bigger males and senior females take the lead. The price of being a leader is leading. Otherwise nobody follows.

From bands of little monkeys in the tree to chimps to gorillas the group's survival is everyone's responsibility. That means that when the young are threatened everybody mobs the threat. If whatever it is doesn't run away they stomp a mudhole in it. And sometimes they'll track it down and throw rocks at it until it dies.

That's what apes do. And that's why I'm happy to be an ape, not a stupid scared sheep or a starving coyote or a coyote that's had a makeover and guards someone else's sheep in exchange for table scraps.

 

[chinto]

I say in such a case the only thing that matters is that the attacker of the kid is stopped.. dead is actually preferable!! but .. in my state you would almost certainly have no problems .. in some states.. may not be the case.. .. ether way i see it he is toast!! maximum force possible instantly!!

 

[Em MacIntosh]

This incident sickens me on many, many levels...

But without more evidence, I'm not condemning the people who failed to successfully intervene. I've seen people take shots that you'd expect to have laid them out, and simply grin. We don't know what drugs, if any, this non-human was on. I've been real lucky in my career; I've never faced someone really high on PCP -- but I've heard enough horror stories to realize that it's very possible that very strenous efforts to stop him could have been ineffective if he was on PCP. There's not enough information right now; I'm not condemning anyone yet.

I'm with you here. It's not cut and dry unless you were there. If the cops killed him it seems obvious he was armed or presented a very significant threat to the police (not to mention the "cowardly" civilians). Is it cowardly to save your skin at the expense of others, even a child? Perhaps. You all know what an adrenaline dump is. I'm confident any witnesses are scarred for life and are well aware of their own guilty feelings for not doing (or feeling able to do) more. Many of us have seen someone in a blind rage, right? Even if they'd done something, what if the child was already dead? Would they be criticised for not doing something fast enough? If you intervened and killed the guy, it's not likely you'll go to jail but stranger things have happened, not to mention a lack of awareness of possible consequences not likely to occur to them when in a state of shock. I'm not defending anyone but remeber that people are human. We're not all heros. Those people may have had families of their own. FEAR CAN BE A POWERFUL THING.