Machida Karate??
- Thread starter AriesKai
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If you don't use Shotokan you can as easily use Wado Ryu karate and I'm sure there's others here who know other karate styles equally effective if trained properly.
It's common for people to think karate isn't used in MMA, it is, quite often actually along with many other styles.
Don't knock kata either look up Iain Abernethy's site, you will learn a great deal about defending yourself. If he had the time he'd be a mean MMA fighter himself but he's excellent as SD and from him you can learn what karate really is.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/
It's common for people to think karate isn't used in MMA, it is, quite often actually along with many other styles.
Don't knock kata either look up Iain Abernethy's site, you will learn a great deal about defending yourself. If he had the time he'd be a mean MMA fighter himself but he's excellent as SD and from him you can learn what karate really is.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/
The one thing that everyone is forgetting is, regardless of his style (it is mostly Shotokan by the way) is that Machida has been doing his art since the age of 2. Now I know most of you may think so what, but that make a big difference. Someone that starts at 15 or even older as many in MMA have done, will be hard pressed to get as good at a TMA art as someone that started at 2.
His body has been growing and developing along with his art so his muscle memory is beyond anything some 20 year old can develop in 10 years, let alone a few years then get into the ring.
Machida is a classic TMA fighter in the ring. He relies so much on timing and distance as do other but he is far above most everyone else. His distance management is off the charts. Distance management is single most thing that is so hard to teach. Boxers work on this the most. In BJJ and wrestling and any grapple art you try to close the distance by any means so you don't work on striking distance as much.
So by being a Shotokan Karate master and his BJJ background he is as complete a fighter as you can get. He did not learn a hybrid style but rather learned two classic styles and is able to use either when needed. A true Mixed Martial Artist.
His body has been growing and developing along with his art so his muscle memory is beyond anything some 20 year old can develop in 10 years, let alone a few years then get into the ring.
Machida is a classic TMA fighter in the ring. He relies so much on timing and distance as do other but he is far above most everyone else. His distance management is off the charts. Distance management is single most thing that is so hard to teach. Boxers work on this the most. In BJJ and wrestling and any grapple art you try to close the distance by any means so you don't work on striking distance as much.
So by being a Shotokan Karate master and his BJJ background he is as complete a fighter as you can get. He did not learn a hybrid style but rather learned two classic styles and is able to use either when needed. A true Mixed Martial Artist.
xJOHNx
Purple Belt
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As said before. It's not the style that is going to win your fight, it's your added flavour that will be decisive.
You keep asking about arts being street effective, but in your life story you state that you have X years of experience in different arts and X years of backyard bare knuckled fighting. Then you should know a bit about SD by now, no?
Bottomline: don't believe every hype and don't look up to hard. Otherwise you'll forget to strive to such a level.
You keep asking about arts being street effective, but in your life story you state that you have X years of experience in different arts and X years of backyard bare knuckled fighting. Then you should know a bit about SD by now, no?
Bottomline: don't believe every hype and don't look up to hard. Otherwise you'll forget to strive to such a level.
Good points. Regarding the underlined part....yes, another good point, but it'd be interesting to know if his training at 2, was like you see today, with the dojos filled with 2yr olds running around like they were on a playground. See, IMO, thats the #1 difference between then and now...back then the BS game playing probably wasn't allowed. If I had to wager a guess, given the quality of fighter that he is today, I'd be inclined to say that his training was taken much more seriously.
With all due respect, the user in question is starting to remind me very much of the user Destroyer Style. Young kid, big heart, and desire to train, but has little experience in the RW, aruges with those that have been training longer, creates a mish-mash of things, in hopes that this jumble of stuff will actually work.
- Thread Starter
- #28
I won't argue with you. I'm not sure whether to take offense to this as it somewhat publicly downgrades my demeanor; but perhaps I'm looking for something that actually works for me, but really have no idea on where to start.
Again, i've 'started' in many different gyms/dojos/studios, but staying 1 dimensional is the quickest way to lose a fight, IMO.
If I train only on boxing, the second I get taken to the ground or rammed against a brick wall, and then get taken to the ground, I'm going to lose that fight if I don't know how to defend myself against it.
What i'm looking for is a well-rounded martial art, or a few martial arts styles that will work in self defense. I've searched extensively, but I can find nothing except for military style systems like, HaganaH.
I think HaganaH is a good system; but is it really all that good?
I've been looking more on EDPAK and am thinking, "Maybe that's the one for me?" but I still don't know. I don't want to put my time and effort into something that's not going to work for me.
- Thread Starter
- #29
In the real world, I have been very poor and grew up in the projects where if you have a new pair of converse and are a white kid walking around in the wrong neighborhood, you're going to get jumped, beaten, and your shoes will be taken by the biggest and strongest kid (the "Deebo").
I've gotten my *** kicked quite a few times because I had a nice watch, was in the wrong neighborhood, or was hanging around the wrong person.
In the last year and a half, I have been chronically homeless over 5 times, have no real family (worthless father, dying mother/cancer), have been into real situations where I absolutely had to apply self defense, and know what will work and what is complete ********. Thankfully, i've only had to fight those who were either moderately or poorly trained, or had no real training at all.
I'm still alive and well today and while i'm still young, i'm wise and have gone through things that many of those who are even 40 years old have not. Perhaps that is why I argue with those that I do not know.
You never know who's at the other end of these computer systems.
I can sit here and say, "I'm a 10th Dan and am 35 years old!" when in reality, I'm only a 15 year old kid with no real training or experience except for YouTube and google searching.
Thanks,
Aries Kai
- Thread Starter
- #31
By the way.. before I forget...
That is exactly what "MMA" is all about.
"Mixed Martial Arts, A mixture of martial arts wrapped into one single system or style."
In fact, that is what "Martial Arts" is all about... hoping that a "jumble of stuff will actually work".
The things that I apply have worked for me. I have not lost one real fight since I was 16, and don't really plan on it, which is why I am seeking some more training. I hope to seek some better training that will help me redefine my skills and will also help me perfect my own technique for me.
I do my best to respect everyone in this forum and will remain as respectful and as formal as possible.
I'm not here to prove anything; but am here to seek help from the professionals.
If I am wrong in any of my methods, tell me how, why, and what I can do to do something better.
That's what practicing is all about.
Best Regards,
Aries Kai
- Thread Starter
- #33
Tell that to Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Chuck Norris.
Bruce Lee openly admitted that he developed Jeet Kune Do at age 27, was a young kid with a big heart, and a true desire to train, argued with many, many old martial artists who had been training a lot longer, created a mish-mash of things in hopes that his jumble of stuff will actually work, applied them, and was very, very successful.
Someone previously had stated that one's age and experience does not matter, as we can all learn something from someone no matter their age or experience.
This is true, as Bruce Lee had 14 years of experience before he openly admitted that he designed his own system (Jeet Kune Do).
Actually, Bruce started teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu in 1959.
There were Grand Masters that were ages 60 and up that argued with Bruce about his systems, but his system has been proven to be very effective.
Many did not agree with him or his philosophies; but yet, he was successful anyways!
I do believe that Bruce Lee was a legend known for his proficiency in the Martial Arts, not something anyone here at Martial Talk can say (no offense).
Bruce Lee officially opened his system (JKD) to others when he was 27 years old, only 5-6 years older than I am today.
Jackie Chan, the only one to beat Bruce Lee (in a tournament) studied many different martial arts and bundled them together as well.
These include:
Under Grand Master Leung Ting he trained in Wing Chun, (Bruce Lee also studied this) as well as Tong Long, Bak Mei, Northern Shaolin Kung Fu
Hapkido, Boxing, Judo, Taekwondo and Hei Long.
Jackie's personal style is a mixture of Wing Chun, Hapkido and Judo.
Chuck Norris also developed his own martial art, "Chun Kuk Do", a system that integrates Tae Kwon Do, BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Shotokan.
As far as I know, Jackie Chan began his training at age 6.
Bruce Lee began his training at age 13.
As for Chuck Norris, I'm not too sure, but next time I see him again, i'll be sure to ask.
I started at age 5 (very similar to the both Bruce and Jackie, and many other martial arts legends).
As far as these individuals street-effectiveness, even in their mixture of styles, they're in no doubt, bar-none.
You get these three together (given that Bruce was alive today), you wouldn't find anyone that would win them over (unless it were 20+ men with chains and baseball bats, or guns).
If I remain 1, 2, or even 3 dimensional in the martial arts and do not train in many or a few different styles, weeding out the things that are irrelevant while keeping the things that will help my flower bloom; then i'm going to have flaws in my system that will be countered by another systems techniques.
Yes, If I try to become a master at all these styles of martial arts, then I will be destroying my flower with weeds that will kill it. That is not my goal.
My goal is to become perfectly well-rounded with my own system that works for me by training in a number of martial arts, using certain techniques that will work for me.
One thing that one of my old instructors had told me was,
"Think of your own system as a cup of water. Keep filling this cup of water until it overflows. Make sure as you overflow your cup, keep everything that will help you, but make sure that the overflowing water is all of the things that won't help you."
Water is the softest, most versatile thing that consistently keeps it's perfect form, that has the most strength of all things on this planet.
Without water, we cannot live.
Without water, nothing on this green earth can live.
Irrelevant? I think not.
If my water is polluted with things that my body does not need, it may only harm me. If my water is nothing but pure and is good, then it will keep me alive. Still following?
I've seen plenty of replies and posts that basically say that training in all of these different styles is a waste of time, and/or isn't effective as "they're all different", ect.
Tell that to the real pro's who've done it.
I argue with the facts, not against them.
There's no point in contradicting this post, as there is no sufficient evidence that will work against what I just said.
END RANT.
Thank you and Best Regards
-Aries Kai
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It might help if your facts were correct...
What tournament did Bruce Lee ever fight in? My understanding is that the only competition he's documented as doing was for dancing... Bruce Lee was incredibly talented, and awesomely hard working -- but there's very little direct documentation about his actual ability to fight.
Jackie Chan is an actor. He's talented and very skilled, but looking to him for information on real violence makes as much sense as asking the cook at Mcdonalds about fine dining.
Chuck Norris is also an actor, who made his name first on the tournament circuit. He's done lots of good things, and I think he's honestly tried to develop a rounded approach -- but he also has little real experience with violence himself.
You're picking three actors, and you seem to be mistaking the world of movie violence with real violence.
You're right though -- there's no arguing with you, because you don't want to listen. You want some sort of easy answer that just doesn't exist. And it's clear you've already made up your mind, anyway, and just want some sort of agreement or confirmation. (By the way, I've been training longer than you've been alive. I'm working cop, though I'll openly admit that I'm not in the roughest and toughest of areas.)
Let me strongly suggest some reading for you (in no particular order):
Dave Grossman:
On Killing
On Combat
Forrest Morgan:Living the Martial Way: A Manual For the Modern Warrior
Rory Miller:
Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts & Real World Violence
Gavin De Becker:
The Gift of Fear
Kenneth R. Murray:
Training at the Speed of Life
- Thread Starter
- #35
Tell me where I am wrong, correct me. SHOW me. Be my guest
So IGNORANCE CALLS! You're saying that Bruce Lee didn't have an ability to fight? The man literally tortured himself! He designed his own machine that would shock the p*ss out of him if he wasn't fast enough on his strikes. I have every way to back up MY argument. Do you?
Bruce Lee was much more than an "actor", he was a true martial artist.
AGAIN, he started training in WING CHUN at age 13.
The only real reason Bruce Lee was introduced into Hollywood is because of Ed Parker, and if you don't know who that is, he designed the "Ed Parker's American Kenpo" system.
Insult his system, and you're doing just as good as lighting a fuse of TNT on this forum.
So argue with that, McSensei. I don't know who you are, where you come from, or what you've done; and personally, if you're not a moderator on this forum, then I could care less, with all due respect.
Chuck Norris, another real martial artist, has been training and has been tournament fighting long before he was an actor. Just check out his bio.
Jackie Chan, not proficient in real violence??? Do you know the first thing about his martial arts training?
As I've listed, he's trained in many different styles, including Wing Chun, Tong Long, Bak Mei, Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Hapkido, Boxing, Judo, Taekwondo, and Hei Long.. Just because he's an actor, doesn't mean that he couldn't kick both of our ***'s.
You're saying that these three 'actors' were not professional, very skilled, masters of the martial arts?
I think you saying that is like saying fish evolved into monkeys, and the "Chupacabra" evolved into Chewbacca.
What you're doing, is comparing what you've seen to what the real facts are. Your interpretation on these martial artists are images from movies.
You want to see how effective they are in real life? Go see for yourself.
Want another one?? How about Jet Li? Jet Li is also a Wushu Champion, not just an actor. Your point is extremely biased, as is your contradiction.
The only reason you can't contradict me, is because I am RIGHT.
I'm not? Prove it.
What you apparently fail to realize is that, These three actors had lives even before you knew about them. Two of them still have lives today.
I used to think that Jackie Chan was about as skilled in fighting as a monkey fighting for a banana; but my perceptions have changed tremendously. I still don't like him as an actor, by any means. In my opinion, the man isn't even funny; but he is a very skilled martial artist.
Perhaps my argument about the "Bruce Lee vs Jackie Chan" was actually debatable, due to the fact that I cannot find it anywhere over the internet.
I won't 'listen' because there's nothing to listen to! I'm not getting any answers, and yes, there is always an answer, you of little faith.
The only answers that i've recieved are opinions rather than facts!
Once I start getting some real explanations on these ideas, then i'll start listening. I'm looking for the perfect system or mix of arts for me.
It's possible, as many, many others in the MA world are still doing it.
Perhaps an agreement would be nice, but not everyone has to agree, and as I know this, an agreement by someone that i've never seen apply any sort of system would be useless.
If someone says, "I think you should try Kenpo because......" then I would start listening. If someone said to me, "I think you're looking for Ninjutsu because...." perhaps I would start listening!
Very few people have given me examples of the different martial arts styles and systems. Because of this, I keep knocking on the door, hoping for the right answer. If you're not the one, start leading, start following, or get the flip outta the way.
I've got plenty of time to study and practice. I'm under no time restrictions. My wife is an RN, and I am a student under no internship at the moment. We live under our means, so it all works out.
The only thing I do on my spare time is train and volunteer at the local animal shelter(prison). I've got all the time in the world to study and practice for quite awhile.
Edwin Dewees and Vitor Belfort got into the Octagon (UFC) at very young ages. Are you saying that because of your "longer years of training" that it makes you any better than them? Hell Dan Lauzon is around my age, and he started at age 18!
Take Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Jones Jr, and Mike Tyson for instance. I guarantee all of these fighters are exceptionally good in the ring, and in the street.
Age and 'years of experience' obviously doesn't mean a damn thing. It does? Show me. Give me good examples.
These are professional fighters who do this for a living.
There are many other fighters that would mop both of us up off our ego-trips in seconds that are just as young as me, or younger.
I take your comment as discriminatory, very rude, and irrelevant.
My stepfather was a cop, SWAT, and county SRT for over 20 years. He's retired now. The man has also mastered the art of Tae Kwon Do, are you about to say that TKD is ineffective?
I will check these out; but as for you, I personally feel that you should back up what you say before you insult others (such as famous actors known and accredited for their abilities), including myself.
Just a formal and respectable thought...
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
AriesKai, this is because you invited me to look here, remember...
Okay, here we go. This is going to cover the last three pages, by the way, I'd settle in for a while...
Right, your first post mentions Machida's approach to Karate as "It appears to be effective even in the street!" Now, this has been detailed quite well, but you haven't answered why you think it appears effective for the street? By all accounts, you have only seen it in training (clips, articles, pictures) or being used in the ring? Street and ring are two completely different animals.
Your second post in this thread, which I'm not going to quote in it's entirety, but begins with the phrase "I'm going to keep this as "less-hasteful" as possible..." is just plain out of context. It was an answer to Omar, in which you take offense that he hasn't paid exteme attention to every post you have made (not everyone checks other posters histories, you know. I do to get an idea of who I am dealing with, but that's me), and then give your entire resume. That speaks volumes about you, and it frankly is not positive, but I'll cover that in more detail later. But really, it's not going to put you in good stead with people here, Omar could very easily have far more experience than you, so realise that, okay? Take what you are answered for what it is, there are a fair few misinterpretations on your part that you are blaming on others.
Okay, the next I'm going to go through in detail. Ready?
(Originally posted by AriesKai) Before I found 'Machida Karate', I've been seriously contemplating on whether to begin training in Shotokan Karate.
If this 'Machida Karate' is only a 'hoax', then Shotokan is what I will begin practicing.
No, it's not a "hoax", it is Machida's use of Shotokan, developed from many years of training in the system. Think of it more like a different instructor teaching the same art, it gives it a slightly different flavour. Okay?
What is good about Shotokan Karate? What is good about the style of fighting? I know that it's not just a style of fighting, but is also a way of life. Perhaps it could be the 'way of life' for me.
This type of question can't really be answered. I can give you an idea as to what the philosophical and technical characteristics of the art, but as to whether they make it "good" or "bad" is up to the individual. From a technical standpoint, Shotokan tends towards linear actions, deep stances, strong definate actions, and little in the way of evasive or retreating actons. Is that good? Well, depends on the person (how they have trained it, how experienced they are), and the situation. I personally wouldn't like to rely on karate in group situations, as the primary philosophy is to stand your ground, and against a group that can be highly dangerous.
But what your question does tell me is that you are consciously unsure of everything you have ever done. And that means that you will be unconsciously unsure as well. You are always looking for the "most powerful, the strongest", that elusive magic bullet, or magic combination of bullets, that will make you unbeatable. And the sad thing is, the more you do that, the further it will get from you, as you are taking yourself further and further from what will actually get you skilled and confident. Again, we'll delve a little further later.
I'm 21 years of age. To be truthful with you, in my young age, i've developed some anger problems that I would love more than anything to get rid of. I practice meditation in an attempt to battle this anger, but it seems that it only keeps coming back.
I'm constantly battling problems in life that is close-to-impossible to do on my own; but i'm doing it.
You have anger issues, well I'm not really shocked based on your posting. In terms of "meditation", what exactly are you doing? Most people have no idea of exactly how to meditate to get a result, so it could very easily be having no more effect than a placebo, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but isn't a solution either. And as to problems which you are battling, which are close-to-impossible to deal with by yourself, get a support network if you cn't handle it alone. See a counsellor, get friends around you, turn to colleagues, go to free clinics, but get a support network. Otherwise nothing will change.
My biggest motivation for finding that perfect martial art or martial arts mix, is because I don't feel that I should be wasting my time or money on something that's not going to suffice in a real street encounter when it comes to battling an assailant trying to rob my wife and kids. I'm going to need to have something extremely useful, given that I don't have a gun at the ready. It's unrealistic and psychotic for someone to believe that they should be carrying a gun everywhere they go (unless it's job-related).
I also want to be able to pass this down to my children and make it a family tradition, as well as something that they can take and pass on in their legacy.
This includes, "I want to give to my children what I never had" and, "My children shouldn't have to grow up the way that I did".
There is no perfect martial art. There is no perfect mix. You can stop looking now, it doesn't exist. Okay? Good. What you are describing could very easily be covered by a single art, if taught well, trained properly, and done realistically. But it is not the art, it is the other factors mentioned. If something that can be relied on in the street is your highest priority, then pick one solid school/teacher and go with them. End of story. Oh, and your comments about "wasting money and time", well, that is what will stop you getting anywhere. Look at the result, and stop thinking about what you could be missing out on, it will stop you getting what is in front of you!
As to having something that you can pass down to your kids, forget that idea. If that is your aim, you may have to deal with the very real possibility that you won't have kids who are interested at all, let alone a wife who is. So if you are going to train, train for you, no-one else will care the way you do. And even if they are interested, who says they will value what you have come up with? Forget that idea, it'll only lead to disappointment and take you in the wrong direction again.
I said I'm going to deal with the ppsychology later, and I will, but first I'm just going to address this. The idea of "I'm going to come up with something and pass it down to my kids as a family art" comes from martial arts fantasy, movies, imaginings, and has nothing to do with the reality. Get your head out of the fantasy, it's holding you back on all levels. More later.
Any reasons why I should or shouldn't study this martial art (without the haste)?
No, no reasons you should study it. And no reasons you shouldn't. Any reasons would be yours, either for or against, but first I would ask if it is available to you where you are. If it is, visit them, and find out. If it isn't, what is the point of this?
You then go on in the next couple of posts to say you will be developing your own system a la Larry Tatum (in MJS's example). No, that is not what you will be doing, Larry has developed his own approach to a single art, you are wanting to bring a whole bunch of disparate things together. Not the same thing. Then we get back to "street effective", asking if this style is "capable" of being street effective. As everyone said, it is how it is trained, so forget the idea of this art being street effective, and this one not. Okay?
From here you start to introduce a new phrase in your posts, stand up "game". This is a term from MMA, and has no place in your questions about street. You're getting the ring and the street confused (internally), which is leading to a lot of your confusion. I'm going to recommend that you remove that phrase from your vocabulary, as it goes against your stated desires.
Okay, another long bit...
Originally Posted by Omar B
I didn't say that. Machida Karate and Shotokan are one in the same and they both work, there's plenty evidence of it. I point out that "the ring" changes the definition of how a conflict works. It's planned, it's on a good surface, there are established rules (which includes strikes you can and can't use hence the paring down of Shotokan as I mentioned before).
So he took certain things from Shotokan that would be legal in the ring; but left the things that wouldn't out?
No, he adapted his solidly trained art to a new environnment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar B
In the ring it's not necessarily a bad thing if you are on the ground. In the real world you most likely end up on pavement or concrete. In the ring you are never beset by multiple attackers, or attackers with weapons, you might not even see them ... as opposed to the ring's well lit conditions.
Definitely. The ring isn't the street, and it never could be. I'm still looking for a better stand up game that'll help me stay off the ground, but use the fact that the ground frckn hurts in real life. Being slammed down on gravel or pavement sucks.
I'm also looking for something that'll help with defending myself against opponents with weapons, or multiple attackers (with or without weapons).
I'm looking for something reality-based that's going to help me get myself and my family out of the worst case scenarios that DO happen.
Is Shotokan a good avenue? I've seen very, very little of it. One thing that i've seen out of a lot of Karate McDojo's, is the 'fancy dancy' Kata's and the, "Here, hold still while I kick your ***" moves.
I'm looking for something that's truly alive, that will help me with these worst case scenarios. My intentions isn't to 'kick ***', but are to 'get out of the situation by any means possible'.
So here you are consciously agreeing with what has been stated, but are still not listening to what is being said. If you want an RBSD system, go to an RBSD system. TMA are not going to suit you. But honestly, I think youwill be better off in a TMA system, as that is the image you have in your head, and a true RBSD system just won't look like the martial arts you are expecting. Seriously, check out what is around you, visit them, talk with the instructors, BE PREPARED TO LEARN WHICH MEANS ALLOWING THE INSTRUCTOR TO TELL YOU THINGS THAT GO AGAINST WHAT YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY LEARNT, and make a decision. But the whole cross training thing isn't going to be the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar B
There's nothing wrong with learning what Lyoto does, but would you use it for the reasons he does and would what you do reflect that? I'm no competitive fighter, but if I went down that same path of education he did my result would be vastly different.
I'm not interested in being in the ring by any means. I'm just looking for something that'll help me fight against even the fiercest of opponents, whether it a single thug with or without a weapon or multiple thugs with or without weapons.
I could care less about these opponents well-being, as they wouldn't mine or my family's either. I'm looking to disable my opponent, or even kill him, so he can no longer attack or harm myself, my family, or anyone else for that matter (if I can help it).
So maybe "Machida Karate" isn't the way for me after all..
If you aren't looking at ring sports at all, stop looking to them for your answers. And as for the idea of disabling or even killing your opponent, seriously, what are you thinking here? That type of thought leads to jail. Bad idea. Check out self defence laws in your area, might help.
Again, i've 'started' in many different gyms/dojos/studios, but staying 1 dimensional is the quickest way to lose a fight, IMO.
If I train only on boxing, the second I get taken to the ground or rammed against a brick wall, and then get taken to the ground, I'm going to lose that fight if I don't know how to defend myself against it.
Staying one dimensional is actually how a lot of street fighters and predators generate the success they have. By knowing that no matter what, this right hand will knock you out, the street fighter just hits you. And then they win. Martial artists tend to want many different methods and techniques, which is the "art" side of things, and they're great, but frankly, if I'm going to get you street effective to go and, let's say, work with gangs, I'm going to seriously limit what I teach you. At most, you will have half a dozen things that I will teach you, and those will just be seriously drilled over and over again. But movies teach us that we need magical techniques, and MMA competition show us we need mulitiple skill sets to fight well and successfully. Unfortunately, neither of these have much to do with the street, and are teaching you false ideas. Most street fighters don't really have much skill, so having a great takedown defence isnt actually that important, unless you are in competition.
By the way.. before I forget...
That is exactly what "MMA" is all about.
"Mixed Martial Arts, A mixture of martial arts wrapped into one single system or style."
In fact, that is what "Martial Arts" is all about... hoping that a "jumble of stuff will actually work".
No, it isn't. A basic overview of MMA is as follows: In the beginning of the UFC, it was art vs art, but because the event was set up around being a very grappler friendly environment, grapplers won. Consistently. So all the strikers started to get a little concerned, and started learning grappling so they could incorporate it into their existing base arts. As time went on, the strikers, now that they could stop a lot of the grapplers offensive arsenal, found themselves on the top. So the grapplers started to learn striking. In the end, as would be expected within a competitive environment, those with the most well-rounded skill set had the most consistent success. And as it progressed, MMA became a distinct system in and of itself (by the way, MMA is probably a bad term itself. It really isn't "mixed martial arts", it's multi ranged combative themed sports), and as such has it's own core philosophy that it follows (revolving around generating success in a competitive environment). That makes it a congruent system, not a "mish-mash of things, in hope that the jumble will work".
Ha, I was about to address your post on the acting personalities, but JKS has beaten me to it! So yeah, what he said! Now to the promised psychology. I recognise that you may not really be ready to hear this, but this also may help you a bit.
Your posts tell a story. The story they tell is of a person who is rather insecure, to be honest. That is in your habit of giving a full resume at every opportunity, which is really a way of seeking our approval or validation. But you do have a bit of ego there, as well. This comes across in a few of your posts to Omar here, as well as your wish to not hear from "the peanut gallery", or anyone with less training experience than yourself, in your intro. You are trying to set yourself up as experienced and knowledgable, and at the same time are saying that you need us to answer your questions as you don't have that much experience(?). As I said, insecure (in your experience, which honestly doesn't sound like much of real substance from the way you've described it) combined with ego (deciding who is worth listening to without knowing what they have to offer). Lose the ego, and recognise the worth of what others can give you. Even if you are the most experienced person here in a particular system, there will be a beginner in another that can teach you an awful lot.
Okay, here we go. This is going to cover the last three pages, by the way, I'd settle in for a while...
Right, your first post mentions Machida's approach to Karate as "It appears to be effective even in the street!" Now, this has been detailed quite well, but you haven't answered why you think it appears effective for the street? By all accounts, you have only seen it in training (clips, articles, pictures) or being used in the ring? Street and ring are two completely different animals.
Your second post in this thread, which I'm not going to quote in it's entirety, but begins with the phrase "I'm going to keep this as "less-hasteful" as possible..." is just plain out of context. It was an answer to Omar, in which you take offense that he hasn't paid exteme attention to every post you have made (not everyone checks other posters histories, you know. I do to get an idea of who I am dealing with, but that's me), and then give your entire resume. That speaks volumes about you, and it frankly is not positive, but I'll cover that in more detail later. But really, it's not going to put you in good stead with people here, Omar could very easily have far more experience than you, so realise that, okay? Take what you are answered for what it is, there are a fair few misinterpretations on your part that you are blaming on others.
Okay, the next I'm going to go through in detail. Ready?
(Originally posted by AriesKai) Before I found 'Machida Karate', I've been seriously contemplating on whether to begin training in Shotokan Karate.
If this 'Machida Karate' is only a 'hoax', then Shotokan is what I will begin practicing.
No, it's not a "hoax", it is Machida's use of Shotokan, developed from many years of training in the system. Think of it more like a different instructor teaching the same art, it gives it a slightly different flavour. Okay?
What is good about Shotokan Karate? What is good about the style of fighting? I know that it's not just a style of fighting, but is also a way of life. Perhaps it could be the 'way of life' for me.
This type of question can't really be answered. I can give you an idea as to what the philosophical and technical characteristics of the art, but as to whether they make it "good" or "bad" is up to the individual. From a technical standpoint, Shotokan tends towards linear actions, deep stances, strong definate actions, and little in the way of evasive or retreating actons. Is that good? Well, depends on the person (how they have trained it, how experienced they are), and the situation. I personally wouldn't like to rely on karate in group situations, as the primary philosophy is to stand your ground, and against a group that can be highly dangerous.
But what your question does tell me is that you are consciously unsure of everything you have ever done. And that means that you will be unconsciously unsure as well. You are always looking for the "most powerful, the strongest", that elusive magic bullet, or magic combination of bullets, that will make you unbeatable. And the sad thing is, the more you do that, the further it will get from you, as you are taking yourself further and further from what will actually get you skilled and confident. Again, we'll delve a little further later.
I'm 21 years of age. To be truthful with you, in my young age, i've developed some anger problems that I would love more than anything to get rid of. I practice meditation in an attempt to battle this anger, but it seems that it only keeps coming back.
I'm constantly battling problems in life that is close-to-impossible to do on my own; but i'm doing it.
You have anger issues, well I'm not really shocked based on your posting. In terms of "meditation", what exactly are you doing? Most people have no idea of exactly how to meditate to get a result, so it could very easily be having no more effect than a placebo, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but isn't a solution either. And as to problems which you are battling, which are close-to-impossible to deal with by yourself, get a support network if you cn't handle it alone. See a counsellor, get friends around you, turn to colleagues, go to free clinics, but get a support network. Otherwise nothing will change.
My biggest motivation for finding that perfect martial art or martial arts mix, is because I don't feel that I should be wasting my time or money on something that's not going to suffice in a real street encounter when it comes to battling an assailant trying to rob my wife and kids. I'm going to need to have something extremely useful, given that I don't have a gun at the ready. It's unrealistic and psychotic for someone to believe that they should be carrying a gun everywhere they go (unless it's job-related).
I also want to be able to pass this down to my children and make it a family tradition, as well as something that they can take and pass on in their legacy.
This includes, "I want to give to my children what I never had" and, "My children shouldn't have to grow up the way that I did".
There is no perfect martial art. There is no perfect mix. You can stop looking now, it doesn't exist. Okay? Good. What you are describing could very easily be covered by a single art, if taught well, trained properly, and done realistically. But it is not the art, it is the other factors mentioned. If something that can be relied on in the street is your highest priority, then pick one solid school/teacher and go with them. End of story. Oh, and your comments about "wasting money and time", well, that is what will stop you getting anywhere. Look at the result, and stop thinking about what you could be missing out on, it will stop you getting what is in front of you!
As to having something that you can pass down to your kids, forget that idea. If that is your aim, you may have to deal with the very real possibility that you won't have kids who are interested at all, let alone a wife who is. So if you are going to train, train for you, no-one else will care the way you do. And even if they are interested, who says they will value what you have come up with? Forget that idea, it'll only lead to disappointment and take you in the wrong direction again.
I said I'm going to deal with the ppsychology later, and I will, but first I'm just going to address this. The idea of "I'm going to come up with something and pass it down to my kids as a family art" comes from martial arts fantasy, movies, imaginings, and has nothing to do with the reality. Get your head out of the fantasy, it's holding you back on all levels. More later.
Any reasons why I should or shouldn't study this martial art (without the haste)?
No, no reasons you should study it. And no reasons you shouldn't. Any reasons would be yours, either for or against, but first I would ask if it is available to you where you are. If it is, visit them, and find out. If it isn't, what is the point of this?
You then go on in the next couple of posts to say you will be developing your own system a la Larry Tatum (in MJS's example). No, that is not what you will be doing, Larry has developed his own approach to a single art, you are wanting to bring a whole bunch of disparate things together. Not the same thing. Then we get back to "street effective", asking if this style is "capable" of being street effective. As everyone said, it is how it is trained, so forget the idea of this art being street effective, and this one not. Okay?
From here you start to introduce a new phrase in your posts, stand up "game". This is a term from MMA, and has no place in your questions about street. You're getting the ring and the street confused (internally), which is leading to a lot of your confusion. I'm going to recommend that you remove that phrase from your vocabulary, as it goes against your stated desires.
Okay, another long bit...
Originally Posted by Omar B
I didn't say that. Machida Karate and Shotokan are one in the same and they both work, there's plenty evidence of it. I point out that "the ring" changes the definition of how a conflict works. It's planned, it's on a good surface, there are established rules (which includes strikes you can and can't use hence the paring down of Shotokan as I mentioned before).
So he took certain things from Shotokan that would be legal in the ring; but left the things that wouldn't out?
No, he adapted his solidly trained art to a new environnment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar B
In the ring it's not necessarily a bad thing if you are on the ground. In the real world you most likely end up on pavement or concrete. In the ring you are never beset by multiple attackers, or attackers with weapons, you might not even see them ... as opposed to the ring's well lit conditions.
Definitely. The ring isn't the street, and it never could be. I'm still looking for a better stand up game that'll help me stay off the ground, but use the fact that the ground frckn hurts in real life. Being slammed down on gravel or pavement sucks.
I'm also looking for something that'll help with defending myself against opponents with weapons, or multiple attackers (with or without weapons).
I'm looking for something reality-based that's going to help me get myself and my family out of the worst case scenarios that DO happen.
Is Shotokan a good avenue? I've seen very, very little of it. One thing that i've seen out of a lot of Karate McDojo's, is the 'fancy dancy' Kata's and the, "Here, hold still while I kick your ***" moves.
I'm looking for something that's truly alive, that will help me with these worst case scenarios. My intentions isn't to 'kick ***', but are to 'get out of the situation by any means possible'.
So here you are consciously agreeing with what has been stated, but are still not listening to what is being said. If you want an RBSD system, go to an RBSD system. TMA are not going to suit you. But honestly, I think youwill be better off in a TMA system, as that is the image you have in your head, and a true RBSD system just won't look like the martial arts you are expecting. Seriously, check out what is around you, visit them, talk with the instructors, BE PREPARED TO LEARN WHICH MEANS ALLOWING THE INSTRUCTOR TO TELL YOU THINGS THAT GO AGAINST WHAT YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY LEARNT, and make a decision. But the whole cross training thing isn't going to be the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar B
There's nothing wrong with learning what Lyoto does, but would you use it for the reasons he does and would what you do reflect that? I'm no competitive fighter, but if I went down that same path of education he did my result would be vastly different.
I'm not interested in being in the ring by any means. I'm just looking for something that'll help me fight against even the fiercest of opponents, whether it a single thug with or without a weapon or multiple thugs with or without weapons.
I could care less about these opponents well-being, as they wouldn't mine or my family's either. I'm looking to disable my opponent, or even kill him, so he can no longer attack or harm myself, my family, or anyone else for that matter (if I can help it).
So maybe "Machida Karate" isn't the way for me after all..
If you aren't looking at ring sports at all, stop looking to them for your answers. And as for the idea of disabling or even killing your opponent, seriously, what are you thinking here? That type of thought leads to jail. Bad idea. Check out self defence laws in your area, might help.
Again, i've 'started' in many different gyms/dojos/studios, but staying 1 dimensional is the quickest way to lose a fight, IMO.
If I train only on boxing, the second I get taken to the ground or rammed against a brick wall, and then get taken to the ground, I'm going to lose that fight if I don't know how to defend myself against it.
Staying one dimensional is actually how a lot of street fighters and predators generate the success they have. By knowing that no matter what, this right hand will knock you out, the street fighter just hits you. And then they win. Martial artists tend to want many different methods and techniques, which is the "art" side of things, and they're great, but frankly, if I'm going to get you street effective to go and, let's say, work with gangs, I'm going to seriously limit what I teach you. At most, you will have half a dozen things that I will teach you, and those will just be seriously drilled over and over again. But movies teach us that we need magical techniques, and MMA competition show us we need mulitiple skill sets to fight well and successfully. Unfortunately, neither of these have much to do with the street, and are teaching you false ideas. Most street fighters don't really have much skill, so having a great takedown defence isnt actually that important, unless you are in competition.
By the way.. before I forget...
That is exactly what "MMA" is all about.
"Mixed Martial Arts, A mixture of martial arts wrapped into one single system or style."
In fact, that is what "Martial Arts" is all about... hoping that a "jumble of stuff will actually work".
No, it isn't. A basic overview of MMA is as follows: In the beginning of the UFC, it was art vs art, but because the event was set up around being a very grappler friendly environment, grapplers won. Consistently. So all the strikers started to get a little concerned, and started learning grappling so they could incorporate it into their existing base arts. As time went on, the strikers, now that they could stop a lot of the grapplers offensive arsenal, found themselves on the top. So the grapplers started to learn striking. In the end, as would be expected within a competitive environment, those with the most well-rounded skill set had the most consistent success. And as it progressed, MMA became a distinct system in and of itself (by the way, MMA is probably a bad term itself. It really isn't "mixed martial arts", it's multi ranged combative themed sports), and as such has it's own core philosophy that it follows (revolving around generating success in a competitive environment). That makes it a congruent system, not a "mish-mash of things, in hope that the jumble will work".
Ha, I was about to address your post on the acting personalities, but JKS has beaten me to it! So yeah, what he said! Now to the promised psychology. I recognise that you may not really be ready to hear this, but this also may help you a bit.
Your posts tell a story. The story they tell is of a person who is rather insecure, to be honest. That is in your habit of giving a full resume at every opportunity, which is really a way of seeking our approval or validation. But you do have a bit of ego there, as well. This comes across in a few of your posts to Omar here, as well as your wish to not hear from "the peanut gallery", or anyone with less training experience than yourself, in your intro. You are trying to set yourself up as experienced and knowledgable, and at the same time are saying that you need us to answer your questions as you don't have that much experience(?). As I said, insecure (in your experience, which honestly doesn't sound like much of real substance from the way you've described it) combined with ego (deciding who is worth listening to without knowing what they have to offer). Lose the ego, and recognise the worth of what others can give you. Even if you are the most experienced person here in a particular system, there will be a beginner in another that can teach you an awful lot.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay dude, bad call.
Tell me where I am wrong, correct me. SHOW me. Be my guest
I have never heard of Jackie Chan fighting against Bruce Lee. Jackie is an actor, first and foremost. Bruce we'll deal with in a second.
So IGNORANCE CALLS! You're saying that Bruce Lee didn't have an ability to fight? The man literally tortured himself! He designed his own machine that would shock the p*ss out of him if he wasn't fast enough on his strikes. I have every way to back up MY argument. Do you?
Bruce Lee was much more than an "actor", he was a true martial artist.
AGAIN, he started training in WING CHUN at age 13.
No, we're not saying that Bruce couldn't fight. But you seem to have a very warped idea. Bruce had a machine that would send electrical impulses to increase muscle development, nothing to do with striking fast enough... But his combative techniques were different to what was in his movies, you know.
The only real reason Bruce Lee was introduced into Hollywood is because of Ed Parker, and if you don't know who that is, he designed the "Ed Parker's American Kenpo" system.
Insult his system, and you're doing just as good as lighting a fuse of TNT on this forum.
Okay, you have been here a few weeks at best, yeah? Bad choice of words, bad target, badly misinterpreted take on JKS's post. You have no real idea yet how this forum works from the sound of things, and if this keeps up, don't be surprised if you get bounced pretty quickly...
So argue with that, McSensei. I don't know who you are, where you come from, or what you've done; and personally, if you're not a moderator on this forum, then I could care less, with all due respect.
Well, JKS is VERY well known here, and is one of the most senior moderators on the forum... playing with fire, kid.
Chuck Norris, another real martial artist, has been training and has been tournament fighting long before he was an actor. Just check out his bio.
Dude, we know these guys. Still doesn't change the fact that you chose actors.
Jackie Chan, not proficient in real violence??? Do you know the first thing about his martial arts training?
As I've listed, he's trained in many different styles, including Wing Chun, Tong Long, Bak Mei, Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Hapkido, Boxing, Judo, Taekwondo, and Hei Long.. Just because he's an actor, doesn't mean that he couldn't kick both of our ***'s.
I met Jackie when he was in Melbourne filming a number of years ago... I don't know, I could take him! But again, this is not the point! The point is that you chose actors, and that shows us something about how your mind works. Take it on board.
You're saying that these three 'actors' were not professional, very skilled, masters of the martial arts?
I think you saying that is like saying fish evolved into monkeys, and the "Chupacabra" evolved into Chewbacca.
What you're doing, is comparing what you've seen to what the real facts are. Your interpretation on these martial artists are images from movies.
You want to see how effective they are in real life? Go see for yourself.
Not really following you here at all.... No, these guys are not necessarily "masters", I may put Bruce in that category, possibly, and maybe Chuck. Jackie I reserve judgement on.
Want another one?? How about Jet Li? Jet Li is also a Wushu Champion, not just an actor. Your point is extremely biased, as is your contradiction.
The only reason you can't contradict me, is because I am RIGHT.
I'm not? Prove it.
And Wu Shu has exactly what to do with martial arts combative ability? Hmm? It is a showy, demonstration art designed for the Beijing Opera and movies...
What you apparently fail to realize is that, These three actors had lives even before you knew about them. Two of them still have lives today.
And you fail to realise that we have been here a lot longer than you have, and have a lot more experience than you. Really, you haven't chosen your battles well...
I used to think that Jackie Chan was about as skilled in fighting as a monkey fighting for a banana; but my perceptions have changed tremendously. I still don't like him as an actor, by any means. In my opinion, the man isn't even funny; but he is a very skilled martial artist.
Perhaps my argument about the "Bruce Lee vs Jackie Chan" was actually debatable, due to the fact that I cannot find it anywhere over the internet.
No, he is a very talented performer. His original art was Hapkido, he went on to train in a few others (the list you posited earlier, I'm not sure of a lot of that!), but the guy is a performer. So is Jet Li, by the way.
Edwin Dewees and Vitor Belfort got into the Octagon (UFC) at very young ages. Are you saying that because of your "longer years of training" that it makes you any better than them? Hell Dan Lauzon is around my age, and he started at age 18!
Take Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Jones Jr, and Mike Tyson for instance. I guarantee all of these fighters are exceptionally good in the ring, and in the street.
Age and 'years of experience' obviously doesn't mean a damn thing. It does? Show me. Give me good examples.
These are professional fighters who do this for a living.
There are many other fighters that would mop both of us up off our ego-trips in seconds that are just as young as me, or younger.
I take your comment as discriminatory, very rude, and irrelevant.
Well, with you saying you don't want to hear from those with less training than you, this comment makes on sense. You only want to hear from those with over 16 years training, but age and experience don't mean anything to you?
Now, the guys you mentioned train hard at single arts. And they train seriously for the result they are after. No wonder they are going further than you at present.
Oh, and "Iron" Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street fight, you know... too used to the gloves giving some protection...
My stepfather was a cop, SWAT, and county SRT for over 20 years. He's retired now. The man has also mastered the art of Tae Kwon Do, are you about to say that TKD is ineffective?
Sure, Tae Kwon Do is useless in a street fight. Great for winning Tae Kwon Do tournaments, though! Unless it is trained with the concept of the street in mind... Again, it's not the art, kid.
I will check these out; but as for you, I personally feel that you should back up what you say before you insult others (such as famous actors known and accredited for their abilities), including myself.
Just a formal and respectable thought...
Frankly, and I'll let JKS decide how he wants to take this, I have seen little other than some basic lip service of any respect from yourself so far, starting with your introduction here. That will need to change. You may note I've stopped being gentle, although this is still far from harsh from me.
- Thread Starter
- #38
I won't reply to ALL of this...
Yes, I have applied true meditation techniques, that i've learned in Tai Chi under my past Shaolin Kung Fu instructor.
I didn't like Shaolin Kung Fu because I felt that it belonged to the "fantasy" and "mystical" BS side of the martial arts world.
No, I can't stand the "fantasy side". You misinterpreted that indeed.
I know you meant no harm by saying this, but I feel offended that you actually interpreted that from me.
I will tell you that i've looked heavily into RBSD systems and thought to myself, "These look very effective, like they'll actually work!!"
I looked heavily into the SPEAR system by Tony Blauer and the HaganaH system as well.
I actually trained a little bit in the SPEAR and HaganaH systems, and loved them... But i'll tell you what happend..
I researched a little more on the net about these systems and found that many experienced martial artists have said many negative things about these systems, that they just don't work.
I questioned why, and they said many, many different things that actually made sense. Why? Because i'm really not all that experienced, truthfully.
Yes, I will openly admit that, all ego aside.
Again, one thing you said about the "fantasy side" of the martial arts....
I can't stand that side of martial arts, actually. That side of martial arts is what I thought many of the users on this forum was confused with.
I wanted to pass down my training and experience to my children, as Lyoto's father did to him. I wanted to make it a part of raising my children, whether they liked it or not.
Reasons? Discipline, life experiences and lessons, and the ability to defend themselves and each other. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't really think so.
Traditional Martial Arts alone, to me, is very one sided, one dimensional, and in my opinion, they just won't work against someone who is very well rounded. Perhaps i'm wrong? I would really like to know, and why.
Reality Based Self Defense systems, i've found, are the best for me because one thing i've found is that they naturally flow with the bodies capabilities. It's easy and doesn't take "hours in the horse stance" (an unnatural stance for the human body), or "long hours of kata's".
You can learn them, train with them, and go about your business with new skills. I've found that many, many people think that they are very ineffective and really won't work. These people apparently have many years of experience in the martial arts.
This has discouraged me to train in them, and is why i'm currently on here (Martial Talk) looking for the right answers.
I've also found that... If Tony Blauer and others have developed their own RBSD's... then why can't I? I know I can.
What i'm looking for is either approval in what i've explained for my arsenal, or disapproval with explanations.
What I would put into my own RBSD:
#1) Negotiation tactics. In my opinion, if you can get out of a situation without someone getting messed up, you've already won.
This is after you've applied the negotiation tactics, or is where someone attacks you without any verbal dialogue.
#2) Stand up defense against punches and kicks.
#3) Stand up defense against weapons
#4) Stand up offensive striking tactics; punches kicks.
#5) Stand up grappling/restraint/takedown tactics.
This is to completely immobilize your opponent so you can either restrain/detain him, or to hinder their ability to attack. It's much harder to attack someone while you're laying flat on your stomache.
This will also give you the head start when you decide to run for your escape.
#6) Stand up defense against takedowns/grappling.
This is for those who go to the local dojo who teach grappling tactics. Sometimes the fight can get very close quarters (i.e. a bus, or a train). Takedown and grappling defense is something that must be applied in every system.
#7) Restraint tactics with and without Pressure Point Control Tactics.
#8) Ground fighting tactics. Almost all fights end up on the ground, that is a FACT. One thing that I've always been faced with on the street, is the big/same size guy bullrushing you and taking you to the ground. After that, they get on top and pound your face in.
Say you do get taken down, what do you do? That is a reality that you must face. Get the hell back up on your feet. If you don't know how to do this, you're going to be a sitting duck and are going to lose.
#9) Weapons offensive techniques. How the hell can you defend against a weapon, if you don't know how to use it? This will also help you tremendously against those multiple attackers. I personally carry a foldout knife in my dominant hand/pocket specifically for this reason.
#10) Escape and evasive tactics. The best way to win a fight, is not to get in one. If you evade a fight before it happens by constantly being aware of what's around you, you've done a very good thing.
If you're attacked by multiple people, the best way to get out alive, is to get out as quick as possible. There's no point in taking on 10 attackers at once; that's for the movies.
If you can find me a system that incorporates all of these same types of techniques, tell me and I will start training for it.
As far as I know, Jeet Kune Do and Ninjutsu are the only one's that I may like. I've considered Ninjutsu, but I don't know what it can offer me and don't know where to begin to look for the right school.
Counting on the fact that 'predators' have no real training, or little/moderate amount of training is probably the quickest way to end up 6 feet under. You never know who you're facing, or how good they are.
I could be facing a guy who's received some training under a guy such as YOU, or anyone else!
Am I starting to make sense to anyone?
Yes, I have applied true meditation techniques, that i've learned in Tai Chi under my past Shaolin Kung Fu instructor.
I didn't like Shaolin Kung Fu because I felt that it belonged to the "fantasy" and "mystical" BS side of the martial arts world.
No, I can't stand the "fantasy side". You misinterpreted that indeed.
I know you meant no harm by saying this, but I feel offended that you actually interpreted that from me.
I will tell you that i've looked heavily into RBSD systems and thought to myself, "These look very effective, like they'll actually work!!"
I looked heavily into the SPEAR system by Tony Blauer and the HaganaH system as well.
I actually trained a little bit in the SPEAR and HaganaH systems, and loved them... But i'll tell you what happend..
I researched a little more on the net about these systems and found that many experienced martial artists have said many negative things about these systems, that they just don't work.
I questioned why, and they said many, many different things that actually made sense. Why? Because i'm really not all that experienced, truthfully.
Yes, I will openly admit that, all ego aside.
Again, one thing you said about the "fantasy side" of the martial arts....
I can't stand that side of martial arts, actually. That side of martial arts is what I thought many of the users on this forum was confused with.
I wanted to pass down my training and experience to my children, as Lyoto's father did to him. I wanted to make it a part of raising my children, whether they liked it or not.
Reasons? Discipline, life experiences and lessons, and the ability to defend themselves and each other. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't really think so.
Traditional Martial Arts alone, to me, is very one sided, one dimensional, and in my opinion, they just won't work against someone who is very well rounded. Perhaps i'm wrong? I would really like to know, and why.
Reality Based Self Defense systems, i've found, are the best for me because one thing i've found is that they naturally flow with the bodies capabilities. It's easy and doesn't take "hours in the horse stance" (an unnatural stance for the human body), or "long hours of kata's".
You can learn them, train with them, and go about your business with new skills. I've found that many, many people think that they are very ineffective and really won't work. These people apparently have many years of experience in the martial arts.
This has discouraged me to train in them, and is why i'm currently on here (Martial Talk) looking for the right answers.
I've also found that... If Tony Blauer and others have developed their own RBSD's... then why can't I? I know I can.
What i'm looking for is either approval in what i've explained for my arsenal, or disapproval with explanations.
What I would put into my own RBSD:
#1) Negotiation tactics. In my opinion, if you can get out of a situation without someone getting messed up, you've already won.
This is after you've applied the negotiation tactics, or is where someone attacks you without any verbal dialogue.
#2) Stand up defense against punches and kicks.
#3) Stand up defense against weapons
#4) Stand up offensive striking tactics; punches kicks.
#5) Stand up grappling/restraint/takedown tactics.
This is to completely immobilize your opponent so you can either restrain/detain him, or to hinder their ability to attack. It's much harder to attack someone while you're laying flat on your stomache.
This will also give you the head start when you decide to run for your escape.
#6) Stand up defense against takedowns/grappling.
This is for those who go to the local dojo who teach grappling tactics. Sometimes the fight can get very close quarters (i.e. a bus, or a train). Takedown and grappling defense is something that must be applied in every system.
#7) Restraint tactics with and without Pressure Point Control Tactics.
#8) Ground fighting tactics. Almost all fights end up on the ground, that is a FACT. One thing that I've always been faced with on the street, is the big/same size guy bullrushing you and taking you to the ground. After that, they get on top and pound your face in.
Say you do get taken down, what do you do? That is a reality that you must face. Get the hell back up on your feet. If you don't know how to do this, you're going to be a sitting duck and are going to lose.
#9) Weapons offensive techniques. How the hell can you defend against a weapon, if you don't know how to use it? This will also help you tremendously against those multiple attackers. I personally carry a foldout knife in my dominant hand/pocket specifically for this reason.
#10) Escape and evasive tactics. The best way to win a fight, is not to get in one. If you evade a fight before it happens by constantly being aware of what's around you, you've done a very good thing.
If you're attacked by multiple people, the best way to get out alive, is to get out as quick as possible. There's no point in taking on 10 attackers at once; that's for the movies.
If you can find me a system that incorporates all of these same types of techniques, tell me and I will start training for it.
As far as I know, Jeet Kune Do and Ninjutsu are the only one's that I may like. I've considered Ninjutsu, but I don't know what it can offer me and don't know where to begin to look for the right school.
Counting on the fact that 'predators' have no real training, or little/moderate amount of training is probably the quickest way to end up 6 feet under. You never know who you're facing, or how good they are.
I could be facing a guy who's received some training under a guy such as YOU, or anyone else!
Am I starting to make sense to anyone?
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- Thread Starter
- #39
Chris Parker,
Thank you for your tips and warnings.
I can not learn anything unless it is thoroughly explained to me in fine details.
If I do not argue with you as hard as I can, and if you don't argue back with good explanations, then how do I know you're just blowing smoke up my tail?
If I don't debate with you debating me back, then I don't learn a damn thing.
I do apologize for seeming so disrespectful, as a good man would.
As for my disrespect to the previous moderator, I do apologize, respectfully.
Perhaps I am truly confused about many things. As I said before, I came here for guidance and wisdom/experience, not a big loop of "find it out yourself". Again, if I don't argue, then I won't get what i'm looking for out of you. I'm looking for, "This is why you wouldn't/shouldn't do this" and "This is why you should do that".
Also, I don't know what's out there, so I can't look if I don't know what to look for.
I've tired myself out trying to look for the right style of martial art, or system for me.
I gave you an example of what I want, it's your choice to go with it and help me find it. With everything that I explained, I would like for you to give me a translation (a style of martial arts, or system) of the words that I gave to you (the arsenal or curriculum of techniques and styles).
I'm so confused, my mind is continuously racing on: go here, go here, go there, go there, ect.
Thank you for your tips and warnings.
I can not learn anything unless it is thoroughly explained to me in fine details.
If I do not argue with you as hard as I can, and if you don't argue back with good explanations, then how do I know you're just blowing smoke up my tail?
If I don't debate with you debating me back, then I don't learn a damn thing.
I do apologize for seeming so disrespectful, as a good man would.
As for my disrespect to the previous moderator, I do apologize, respectfully.
Perhaps I am truly confused about many things. As I said before, I came here for guidance and wisdom/experience, not a big loop of "find it out yourself". Again, if I don't argue, then I won't get what i'm looking for out of you. I'm looking for, "This is why you wouldn't/shouldn't do this" and "This is why you should do that".
Also, I don't know what's out there, so I can't look if I don't know what to look for.
I've tired myself out trying to look for the right style of martial art, or system for me.
I gave you an example of what I want, it's your choice to go with it and help me find it. With everything that I explained, I would like for you to give me a translation (a style of martial arts, or system) of the words that I gave to you (the arsenal or curriculum of techniques and styles).
I'm so confused, my mind is continuously racing on: go here, go here, go there, go there, ect.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Be offended. You were meant to get an emotional responce from my words, and you did. If you are thrilled, upset, offended, or validated by my words doesn't matter to me, so if you are offended, great! But your posting shows fantasy filling your head, and that is all there is to it. Believe me, I've seen plenty of students and others who are similarly filled, and you show all the hallmarks. Even if it is just your daydream imaginings, it is still fantasy. As to passing it on to your kids, I stand by what I said. You are going to train them even if they don't want to, and think that'll instill discipline? No, it'll instill resentment. Force them and they'll hate you, give them reasons to love it and they'll happily go along. Again, you're doing this for you, with your values, not theirs.
But go into your mediative practices a little more. I'll show you what I mean, in my schools our mediations are guided visualisation exercises with specific goals in mind, and are based on Eriksonian and Analytical Hypnotherapy and NLP. My first school (karate) also "taught" meditation, which consisted of basically being told to sit in a certain posture with our hands held a certain way, and then being told to "meditate". No guidance, no explanation, just sit there and be quiet! Not so productive. And that is actually the more common way it is taught, especially in Eastern arts and cultures, where you are expected to simply do what you are told, and to not ask questions. So people do what they have been told without understanding it, or knowing why things are done (my instructor could never explain why our hands were held the way they were...).
As to RBSD systems, they are often best thought of as supplementary systems, as they assume a established skill level. They are not there to teach techniques, they are designed around teaching principles which can be adapted to any art, and are focused on surviving an assault. They may have a "technique", such as Tony's SPEAR concept (jam and strike), Richard Dmitri's Shredder (clawing to the face), Crazy Monkey Boxing's unique cover, Deane Lawlers R-SULT covering strike (similar to Tony's SPEAR, actually), but these are simply concepts given a form. The idea is that they are taught to people who are already trained in a martial art of some form, not that they are complete systems themselves.
Arts such as Krav Maga (or HaganaH or others) are heavily based in a martial art, and the training methods sets them out as semi-RBSD systems. For example, Krav Maga is based on Shotokan, originally, and was developed into a military system for the Israeli Army, leading to new training methods and appraoches to deal with the environment they were facing (which is not the same as a modern Western city street, by the way). But they will get you more well-rounded, as well as dealing with the far more important concepts of adrenaline training and pressure testing. In terms of RBSD, check out Iain Abernathy (karate), Geoff Thompson (karate), and others. Note that these guys have very serious backgrounds in established TMA systems, and that allows them to develop their RBSD systems (that would answer your question as to why them and not you, basically because they have the experience and requisite training behind them).
TMA training by itself is as useful or useless as modern arts, depending on how it is taught and trained. I think this has been covered enough in the lasy few days though, yeah? Tell me if you want to go through it again, but I would look to the "Street effectiveness" thread... Horse stance training is designed for very specific reasons, including strengthening your legs, building endurance and the ability to withstand discomfort/pain, and more. Repetitive training, whether it is stance training, drilling combinations, pressure testing, kata, or anything else, is essential. If you get "bored" doing kata, or can't see the benefits of horse stance training, you're missing the point, and maybe a different approach would suit you better.
You will get neither approval nor disapproval for your list, you will only get feedback and advice. We have no need or desire to approve or disapprove. If you want to do such a mix, go for it. It won't help you the way you think, but hey, go for it. We're just not that involved. We don't care what you do, as we're not the ones doing it, but if you ask what we think we will tell you.
Your list there of what you want, well, all of that is in my schools, actually. Plus more, so you know. But something with that amount of depth will not be a RBSD system, it will be a complete martial art. RBSD training principles can be used (I use them myself in my training, and use them to teach as well), but it is not an RBSD system.
Oh, and before others jump in, NO, that whole "most fights go to the ground" thing has been debunked so many times it's ridiculous. The study was from LEOs whose primary tactic was to take the other guy to the ground so they could cuff them, the figure was between 60 and 90% (dependingon who you asked), the BJJ guys got hold of it years ago to justify their approach. Most fights that go to the ground are because someone slips. Then they get up again. Then they slip again. That's if it lasts that long.
And finally, in regard to "counting on the street fighter/predator not having much training", well, I don't think that makes them less dangerous. They have experience at hurting people, they know that they can do it, they know how they can do it, they have done it before, and have no problem doing it again. They are completely commited to hurting you, and that makes them dangerous. But they are not going to be BJJ Black Belts. They wouldn't last in a BJJ school, frankly.
But go into your mediative practices a little more. I'll show you what I mean, in my schools our mediations are guided visualisation exercises with specific goals in mind, and are based on Eriksonian and Analytical Hypnotherapy and NLP. My first school (karate) also "taught" meditation, which consisted of basically being told to sit in a certain posture with our hands held a certain way, and then being told to "meditate". No guidance, no explanation, just sit there and be quiet! Not so productive. And that is actually the more common way it is taught, especially in Eastern arts and cultures, where you are expected to simply do what you are told, and to not ask questions. So people do what they have been told without understanding it, or knowing why things are done (my instructor could never explain why our hands were held the way they were...).
As to RBSD systems, they are often best thought of as supplementary systems, as they assume a established skill level. They are not there to teach techniques, they are designed around teaching principles which can be adapted to any art, and are focused on surviving an assault. They may have a "technique", such as Tony's SPEAR concept (jam and strike), Richard Dmitri's Shredder (clawing to the face), Crazy Monkey Boxing's unique cover, Deane Lawlers R-SULT covering strike (similar to Tony's SPEAR, actually), but these are simply concepts given a form. The idea is that they are taught to people who are already trained in a martial art of some form, not that they are complete systems themselves.
Arts such as Krav Maga (or HaganaH or others) are heavily based in a martial art, and the training methods sets them out as semi-RBSD systems. For example, Krav Maga is based on Shotokan, originally, and was developed into a military system for the Israeli Army, leading to new training methods and appraoches to deal with the environment they were facing (which is not the same as a modern Western city street, by the way). But they will get you more well-rounded, as well as dealing with the far more important concepts of adrenaline training and pressure testing. In terms of RBSD, check out Iain Abernathy (karate), Geoff Thompson (karate), and others. Note that these guys have very serious backgrounds in established TMA systems, and that allows them to develop their RBSD systems (that would answer your question as to why them and not you, basically because they have the experience and requisite training behind them).
TMA training by itself is as useful or useless as modern arts, depending on how it is taught and trained. I think this has been covered enough in the lasy few days though, yeah? Tell me if you want to go through it again, but I would look to the "Street effectiveness" thread... Horse stance training is designed for very specific reasons, including strengthening your legs, building endurance and the ability to withstand discomfort/pain, and more. Repetitive training, whether it is stance training, drilling combinations, pressure testing, kata, or anything else, is essential. If you get "bored" doing kata, or can't see the benefits of horse stance training, you're missing the point, and maybe a different approach would suit you better.
You will get neither approval nor disapproval for your list, you will only get feedback and advice. We have no need or desire to approve or disapprove. If you want to do such a mix, go for it. It won't help you the way you think, but hey, go for it. We're just not that involved. We don't care what you do, as we're not the ones doing it, but if you ask what we think we will tell you.
Your list there of what you want, well, all of that is in my schools, actually. Plus more, so you know. But something with that amount of depth will not be a RBSD system, it will be a complete martial art. RBSD training principles can be used (I use them myself in my training, and use them to teach as well), but it is not an RBSD system.
Oh, and before others jump in, NO, that whole "most fights go to the ground" thing has been debunked so many times it's ridiculous. The study was from LEOs whose primary tactic was to take the other guy to the ground so they could cuff them, the figure was between 60 and 90% (dependingon who you asked), the BJJ guys got hold of it years ago to justify their approach. Most fights that go to the ground are because someone slips. Then they get up again. Then they slip again. That's if it lasts that long.
And finally, in regard to "counting on the street fighter/predator not having much training", well, I don't think that makes them less dangerous. They have experience at hurting people, they know that they can do it, they know how they can do it, they have done it before, and have no problem doing it again. They are completely commited to hurting you, and that makes them dangerous. But they are not going to be BJJ Black Belts. They wouldn't last in a BJJ school, frankly.
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