Mace

[terryl965]

Does mace really work againsta craze maniac, will it stop them in there tracks? I got into a converstation with a woman who says it is not worth a penny. Since I have never really used it or know anybody that actually has, I thought I would get some insight.

 

[KenpoTex]

first of all, "Mace" isn't very common as it has mostly been replaced by O.C. (oleoresin capiscum)/Pepper-Spray.

As I've said in other posts, I don't view OC as a self-defense tool, I view it as a control tool to be used on a non-compliant or beligerant subject. Why the distinction? Because typically, you can only expect it to work on about 85% of the people who get sprayed and even then, it's not instantaneous...you have to let 'em cook for a few seconds before it starts taking effect.

Will it "stop" an enraged attacker? I certainly wouldn't count on it. I had to get a direct shot before I could be "certified" to carry it for work. While it is not pleasant, it did not/would not affect me enough to prevent me from fighting.

Below you'll find an article that serves as a good "intro" on the subject.
If you want even more info. go here http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2545&highlight=spray (you'll have to register with the forum to read the thread but it's worth it).

Pepper Spray 101

By James Yeager

People use the word "mace" as a generic term for any type or brand of aerosol chemical weapon. They use it much in the same way as saying Kleenex for any facial tissue. Shop wisely because not all personal defense sprays are created equally. Some people choose them because OC can be carried in some places that guns are not allowed. Others just want more options.

The single biggest misconception about aerosol chemical weapons is the "percentage" of O.C. (Oleoresin Capsicum) like 5% or 10%. A person might be led to believe the 10% formula is better than a lower one like 5%. The higher percentages make it last LONGER because there is more pepper in that formula. They do not make it HOTTER and heat is what makes it effective.

Let’s say brand "A" uses a very low grade of pepper and makes the formula 10%. Brand "F" uses the highest quality peppers available and makes the formula 2%. The only way to determine how good either of them might be is to check the label for Scoville Heat Units. Heat is what makes O.C. effective. Heat of O.C. is measured by S.H.U.s (Scoville Heat Units). In my opinion, you should consider nothing less than 1 million S.H.U.s, for self-protection or Law Enforcement work. Fox Labs International has a 2% formulation, which increases recovery time, but it is 5.3 million S.H.U.s, which makes it the hottest spray on the market.

Another misconception is that the O.C. spray will affect people of different ethnic backgrounds less because they eat so many peppers as part of their staple diet. This is absolutely not true.

The three physical effects that you want your formula to cause are a burning sensation of the contaminated skin, respiratory distress, and an involuntary eye closure. The burning sensation is the least important tactically. The desired respiratory effect is to decrease the ability for the badguy breath enough to keep attacking you. The involuntary eye closure is the most important tactically. The O.C. dries the fluids in the eye on contact and forces the person to shut their eyes. If the potential felon can’t see you it will be more difficult to catch or kill you.

Most Personal Defense Sprays are available in Fog, Cone (sometimes called Mist), Stream and Foam. Each of these spray patterns has its strong points. Fog is the most effective delivery system because it is the most readily inhaled. It causes the most cross contamination onto unintended areas and is the easiest to blow back into your own face. Cone has a "shotgun" type pattern and is my personal favorite for general use. It has a more wind resistant delivery but still atomizes the OC well for inhalation. Steam is not inhaled as readily but has the greatest distance and even less likelihood of blowback. Foam has an almost shaving cream type consistency. It is highly unlikely it will be blown back by wind and is the best choice for indoor use as it causes the least cross contamination. Foam however is the least effective because it is rarely inhaled.

Some manufacturers would have you believe their product is superior to any other defensive option. Nothing works 100% of the time. NOTHING. Not your shotgun, not your baton, not your brain. Do not fall into the trap of thinking your O.C. will handle anything that comes along. It will not. Beware of any company who says their spray is the greatest thing ever invented. I have seen demonstrations of people sprayed with pepper sprays and still attack. Goal oriented people. They are dangerous and you must remain vigilant.

You must also have a back-up plan. Just like going to your back-up gun if your primary becomes damaged or taken. If your OC doesn’t work you need to be prepared to go to a higher level of force or be ready to run away. Always keep in mind your self defense tools are likely to give lackluster performance when it comes down to it.

If you carry OC as a defensive option put some thought into it. Just like with your gun-holster-ammo combination. Police officers use the OC on their belt far more often than the gun beside it. Consider which spray pattern and formulation will best suit your needs. Also consider placing several cans in strategic locations like in the car, at the office, by the front door and in your vest pocket.

Using OC isn’t as complicated as shooting but you do need to practice with it. Many companies sell inert training units that will work for practice but I suggest just using a live can. Practice like you would use it and think ahead and know which way the wind is blowing. If it blows back into your face have you really made yourself safer?

While on the topic of accidentally (or otherwise) being sprayed there are some simple guidelines you can follow to speed recovery along. Water and lots of it will help immensely. If you have non-oil based soap available (like Dawn or J&J baby shampoo) you should use it to wash the excess spray out of your hair and off your face. Make sure to get it all so you don’t get recontaminated later when you shower. Never use salves or creams to ease the burning sensation. It will only trap the OC under the skin and cause blistering. Never remove another persons contact lenses, always let a medical professional take them out.

If you ever are forced to spray someone you should move afterward. Two or three one half second bursts will do it. If the face is covered it will make it no hotter to spray more and it could actually wash some off. It should produce a reaction within three seconds of contact. If you do not get the desired effect go to your "plan B".

Chemical Weapons can be a good choice for people who choose not to have a gun. They can also help us bridge the gap between no force and lethal force. If chosen and used correctly they can be a great asset to anyone who is worried about their personal safety.

Tactical Response offers the best chemical weapons course available anywhere and the only quality course open to non-police and military. We open a lot of new tactical applications for this tool and it is one of our most sought after classes. To host a class or for more information or call 731-676-2041, check our website (http://www.TacticalResponse.com), or send an e-mail to [email protected].






James Yeager CEO: 731-336-4602
[email protected]
TRAINING: www.TacticalResponse.com 877-7LETHAL
GEAR: www.TacticalResponseGear.com 866-TAC-GEAR

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

When I used to carry OC, I was also carrying a knife.
When I had it in my truck, I also had a eastwing hammer.
I look at it like a more painfull and accurate version of throwing sand in their face.
I dont carry it anymore now that I have kids, it's one more weapon to secure, I have enough.

 

[LuzRD]

very informative article Kenpotex. i like it!

i think that relying on a spray to "stop" anyone is a headline waiting to happen, i actually feel that RELYING on anything non-lethal to stop sombody is a bad move.
(to clarify, this does NOT mean that i think lethal action should be the goal! i believe like most (i assume) that lethal force is a split second choice whos result lasts a lifetime, and to be avoided if AT ALL possible.)

i have been in a very small room while a group of about 6 men where resisting while being removed from the club i worked at and they got "hosed". the effect took the fight out of them all but the overspray closed the entire club for the rest of the night. MY experience with "enough overspray for my liking" (from about 5-7' away from a couple seconds worth of spray time) would not keep me out of a fight if i felt i needed to protect myself or someone else, so DONT MISS if your in danger! and even then be ready to flee.

i have thought of buying a can as a "just to have with me" item, and that Fox Labs looks about right.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

KenpoTex is as always right on. There are some people it will not effect much if at all. Particularly if they are on drugs, mentally ill or have had alot of training with it. (ie. myself, many military people, many LEO's, etc)

It is a good tool to use for compliance for LEO's but it is not my number one pick for self defense (way down the line) but it could be used in conjunction with Empty Hand skills and other tool set skills.

 

[Bodhisattva]

KenpoTex is as always right on. There are some people it will not effect much if at all. Particularly if they are on drugs, mentally ill or have had alot of training with it. (ie. myself, many military people, many LEO's, etc)

It is a good tool to use for compliance for LEO's but it is not my number one pick for self defense (way down the line) but it could be used in conjunction with Empty Hand skills and other tool set skills.

A big problem is that most "muggers" and "rapists" are likely to have an "in case of mace" back up plan.

Anyone who has trained with it knows that you can easily still double leg your opponent or grab him and beat him senseless in the clinch after being hit with mace.

I usually suggest to people to use their pepper spray like a jab - use it to initiate the rest of your attack.

It would make no sense to jab a mugger and stand there.

So don't mace him and expect the magic spray to take him out.

Instead, Mace him and follow up with a right cross and a takedown. Then either stomp him or run.

 

[chinto]

Mace is CS/CN normally and they are two versions of tear gas. each is a slightly different chemical. CSII is nasty as its small enough to get into lungs.. but has caused fatalitys... and is restricted to military only I believe. OC is pepper spray and good stuff..
all of them take a few seconds to take effect, and all of them have been known to fail to incapacitate an attacker. ( except CS2 once in the lungs)
I know police who carry the "grizzly bear repellent" strength foam OC in a a minnie fire extinguisher like canister for control of belligerent drunks and other suspects. they say they get less in trouble and hassals if they use that .. and lots of it then using a baton or fighting with them... but its not a good weapon for self defense really compared to many, and federal office buildings and court houses and other places consider it to be a weapon and banned from the premises just as say a gun is..

 

[jks9199]

Does mace really work againsta craze maniac, will it stop them in there tracks? I got into a converstation with a woman who says it is not worth a penny. Since I have never really used it or know anybody that actually has, I thought I would get some insight.

No.

It's better than nothing, but far from 100% reliable. And it works best on those who are using it, not their attackers.

If you're choosing to carry any form of chemical deterrent, I strongly suggest you do some exposure training with it so that you know how it feels.

Beyond that -- lots of good posts.

 

[Drac]

KenpoTex is as always right on. There are some people it will not effect much if at all. Particularly if they are on drugs, mentally ill or have had alot of training with it. (ie. myself, many military people, many LEO's, etc)

It is a good tool to use for compliance for LEO's but it is not my number one pick for self defense (way down the line) but it could be used in conjunction with Empty Hand skills and other tool set skills.

Well said Brian...One of our officers emptied a can of the police issued OC on a guy that was assaulting him and it affected the guy like a sudden attack from a bubblebath..I saw the suspect later in the ER , the crap was glistening on his skin and he still wasn't bothered by it...If ya wanna buy it go for it, just avoid the foam stuff....They tried to rob a bus driver here and sprayed her with the foam stuff and it hit here on the side of the face..She scooped it with the back of her had in an effort to get it off and it hit the attacker square in tha face...He fled the scene..

 

[jks9199]

I recall the first real-world exposure to OC I had. I was a rookie, and one of the guys on my squad had a drunk jump him. He sprayed the guy, and it didn't even slow him down until we finally got him cuffed and into a cruiser for transport. It wasn't till he was calming down that he noticed the liquid fire...

 

[KenpoTex]

I look at it like a more painfull and accurate version of throwing sand in their face.

I usually suggest to people to use their pepper spray like a jab - use it to initiate the rest of your attack.

The use of OC as a momentary distraction used to buy time for a more effective attack is a great point that I forgot to mention.

One instructor that I know of referrs to it as "eye-jab in a can"

 

[MJS]

Does mace really work againsta craze maniac, will it stop them in there tracks? I got into a converstation with a woman who says it is not worth a penny. Since I have never really used it or know anybody that actually has, I thought I would get some insight.

IMO, I'd put things like this in line with any of our empty hand material, ie: punches and kicks. Anything has the potential to work, however, I don't like to bank on the one shot-one kill.

That being said, it very well may depend on the person who is hit with it. I've heard some people say that if you're under the influence of drugs it won't work. Some people have been hit with it and it does its job.

When I worked for the DOC, part of the training was being exposed to OC. A few cans were shot off inside of a shed. Groups of people were sent into the shed for a certain period of time. During that time, one by one, the people in the shed had to say their name and a few other things. Nobody could leave the shed until everyone in the group completed this. Kinda sucked to be the last guy in line! LOL! Anyways...the point of this...it was uncomfortable and I for one, couldn't wait to get the hell out of that shed, but I could still function. Granted, it wasn't a direct hit, but it still wasn't anything fun.

Additionally, I think that part of the effectiveness, is being able to use it effectively. In other words...already having it in your hand, compared to having to reach into a purse or pocket to pull it out, as well as being able to function under stress. IMHO, this goes for all tools. We can carry a can of mace, a knife or gun, but if you can't use it effectively its not going to help.

 

[Guardian]

first of all, "Mace" isn't very common as it has mostly been replaced by O.C. (oleoresin capiscum)/Pepper-Spray.

As I've said in other posts, I don't view OC as a self-defense tool, I view it as a control tool to be used on a non-compliant or beligerant subject. Why the distinction? Because typically, you can only expect it to work on about 85% of the people who get sprayed and even then, it's not instantaneous...you have to let 'em cook for a few seconds before it starts taking effect.

Will it "stop" an enraged attacker? I certainly wouldn't count on it. I had to get a direct shot before I could be "certified" to carry it for work. While it is not pleasant, it did not/would not affect me enough to prevent me from fighting.

Below you'll find an article that serves as a good "intro" on the subject.
If you want even more info. go here http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2545&highlight=spray (you'll have to register with the forum to read the thread but it's worth it).

We had to take that blast also and I concur with you all the way, I'd rather yell at them to startle them. I still will use it, but it's definately in my mind that I better be ready for the next portion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What do you mean mace might not work. Either this mace or this mace would work against just fine against a crazed maniac as far as I'm concerned

Sorry, I just HAD to do it

 

[KenpoTex]

What do you mean mace might not work. Either this mace or this mace would work against just fine against a crazed maniac as far as I'm concerned

Sorry, I just HAD to do it

I wish they'd issue me one of those instead of the can of hot-sauce.

 

[chinto]

What do you mean mace might not work. Either this mace or this mace would work against just fine against a crazed maniac as far as I'm concerned

Sorry, I just HAD to do it

well I will take mace number one over number two.. flails are really really over rated.. but number one.. "holy water sprinkler" type will do the job really really well!!

 

[sgtmac_46]

As an OC Spray (Pepperspray) instructor, I tell my officers to consider OC Spray a DISTRACTOR.....the most consistent response you can expect from it is to buy you a few moments while he adjusts to a new reality. Don't count on that being long, and DON'T count on him dropping in his tracks. Have a backup plan.

The response to being sprayed depends on a GREAT many variables, not the least of which is the particular spray you are using, it's delivery system (cone, fog, stream, etc), the mindset, mental state and relative pain tolerance of the person you are spraying, and many other conditions. Therefore, the range of responses is varied WIDELY! One person may drop instantly as if shot to the ground, while another may show no apparent signs at all!

Having been sprayed NUMEROUS times myself, I can attest to how it affects me....I can still see (close up) and I can still FIGHT! I experience burning and walleye vision. If you're within 5 feet of me and I can hit you, kick you, shoot you. HOWEVER, if i'm properly dosed and you run AWAY from me, I probably couldn't follow you, as the 'eye-flipping' causes the aforementioned walleye vision.

OC Spray when properly used, can be VERY effective in increasing your ability to defend yourself.....but you MUST understand it's strengths and weaknesses and how to apply it properly....NEVER expect it to be a magic bullet end to an encounter. Count on it as a distractor, and work from there!

 

[Xue Sheng]

well I will take mace number one over number two.. flails are really really over rated.. but number one.. "holy water sprinkler" type will do the job really really well!!

I know little about the mace but I must admit I have always wondered about how effective the chain version was and I always felt it was at least less dependable and controllable then the solid version - thanks for the info

And now I apologize to going off topic

 

[chinto]

I know little about the mace but I must admit I have always wondered about how effective the chain version was and I always felt it was at least less dependable and controllable then the solid version - thanks for the info

And now I apologize to going off topic

lol... yep and the flanged version works well too. but the flails are over rated and were never that common or practical.
as to the chemical OC version.. the cop I know who uses the foam version in the huge canister with long range said it usually works pretty well if you start hosing them down from a distance and as they fall keep it up so they are well saturated and covered. ... and less paper work and legal hassil then if you use a baton, let alone shoot them.