MA vs MA

[thaiboxer]

does anyone know of or seen any good mpegs on the net of different martial arts styles mixing it up in competition or something against each other? just interested in such major events and there outcomes.
thanks

 

[white dragon]

Have you checked out some of the Ultimate Fighting videos? Not sure how they're like in general but I've seen Royce Gracie (sp?) the Jujitsu guy going up against kickboxers, shootfighters and Kempo Karate guys, which is well worth a look.

 

[thaiboxer]

Originally posted by white dragon

Have you checked out some of the Ultimate Fighting videos? Not sure how they're like in general but I've seen Royce Gracie (sp?) the Jujitsu guy going up against kickboxers, shootfighters and Kempo Karate guys, which is well worth a look.

yeah mate ive watched quite a number of those, i was sort of referring to mpeg's on the net. there is a TKD vs. MT martial arts tournament one. I was just wondering if there were anymore around like this. perhaps a KF vs. TKD for example or something like that.
Royce did well i thought, although i also thought the ability of some of the stand up fighters was pretty ordinary.

 

[white dragon]

I can't help I'm affraid,but I'd like to see some. Royce did do well, he didn't give the guys much chance and shut them down right from the start, no prancing about. I'm not sure if it's that the guys were pretty ordinary or if he just didn't give them a chance to pull anything off. Either way, he has my repsect!

 

[thaiboxer]

Originally posted by white dragon

I can't help I'm affraid,but I'd like to see some. Royce did do well, he didn't give the guys much chance and shut them down right from the start, no prancing about. I'm not sure if it's that the guys were pretty ordinary or if he just didn't give them a chance to pull anything off. Either way, he has my repsect!

same here, i would have liked to see royce take on one of those sumos though, that would have been a test, see if he had any answers to that sort of attack

 

[Steve]

same here, i would have liked to see royce take on one of those sumos though, that would have been a test, see if he had any answers to that sort of attack

I think Royce is a little one dimensional. I predict he’ll be defeated rather easily in a few years by someone who is more well rounded.

 

[Holmejr]

I think Royce is a little one dimensional. I predict he’ll be defeated rather easily in a few years by someone who is more well rounded.

Lol. Like almost everybody out there these days. Good one.

 

[drop bear]

I think Royce is a little one dimensional. I predict he’ll be defeated rather easily in a few years by someone who is more well rounded.

So long as he doesn't get starched by a pro wrestler.

If that happened I would probably throw my walk man away.

 

[Alan0354]

does anyone know of or seen any good mpegs on the net of different martial arts styles mixing it up in competition or something against each other? just interested in such major events and there outcomes.
thanks

Don't know what is mpegs.

You missed the whole UFC? Go on youtube and watch UFC1 and UFC2, you'll get a GOOD idea.

I remember when I was in HK, I've seen competitions of different styles of Asia. My first impression was how come they all looked the same!!! No matter snake, dragon, WC, etc, they just looked like street fights waling at each other. Where were all the fancy moves? Just fight like mad monkeys. Maybe you can find those from Asia if you don't like UFC and MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I can't help I'm affraid,but I'd like to see some. Royce did do well, he didn't give the guys much chance and shut them down right from the start, no prancing about. I'm not sure if it's that the guys were pretty ordinary or if he just didn't give them a chance to pull anything off. Either way, he has my repsect!

Royce had more practice with fighting against other martial arts outside style. The end results would not have been the same had he only trained bjj vs bjj.

 

[Cynik75]

Don't know what is mpegs.

You missed the whole UFC? Go on youtube and watch UFC1 and UFC2, you'll get a GOOD idea.

I remember when I was in HK, I've seen competitions of different styles of Asia. My first impression was how come they all looked the same!!! No matter snake, dragon, WC, etc, they just looked like street fights waling at each other. Where were all the fancy moves? Just fight like mad monkeys. Maybe you can find those from Asia if you don't like UFC and MMA.

I am curious if he was waiting 20 years fo the answer...

 

[jmf552]

I think those kinds of comparisons are interesting and entertaining, but they don't prove a lot. What works is what you can make work in a real fight, whether you learned in a martial arts school, in the military or in prison. Competitions all have rules and the matches are promoted. People can game the outcome based on that. It is worthwhile to read what Bill Wallace, who was a commentator at the first UFC, said about why the first UFCs were dominated by Royce Gracie.

If you read books by people who have handled a lot of real violence, like those by Rory Miller and Varg Freeborn, you see that style is not all that important and martial arts schools don't really teach fighting. They may teach techniques that are useful in fighting, but real fighting is more about the mental aspects.

If sport is your interest, watching competitions generally only proves who has best mastered the rules of a given competition.

I read a study that analyzed 200 videos of actual street fights. The average length of the conflicts was 47 seconds and few lasted over a minute. If there was a KO or TKO, it generally happened in the first 10 seconds. If that didn't happen, it generally went to the ground. That is nothing like most competitions I've seen.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I read a study that analyzed 200 videos of actual street fights. The average length of the conflicts was 47 seconds and few lasted over a minute.

I do 1 minute training Reps because from what I've seen from teaching is that most people are gassed out at 30 secs. If a person can apply continuous pressure for 1 minute then they will be in good shape for a 30 second fight with points of high and low activity. Push hard for the first 15 seconds, then watch that person degrade after that 15 second mark. Burn your enemy out.

I'm wondering if this is what happens sometimes when women get physically attacked and the woman fights back and their attacker backs off. I wonder if their attacker gasses out.

 

[Steve]

I read a study that analyzed 200 videos of actual street fights. The average length of the conflicts was 47 seconds and few lasted over a minute. If there was a KO or TKO, it generally happened in the first 10 seconds. If that didn't happen, it generally went to the ground. That is nothing like most competitions I've seen.

You know, this is an interesting idea... do an actual study. I mean, I've seen a lot of MMA fights over the years, at all levels from amateur to elite.

So, let's see... factors to consider if we wanted to do an apples to apples comparison.

Street fights: we'd need a sample that is large enough to account for variations in context. Some contextual things I can think of that I'd want to account for:

1. Skill level of the fighters
2. Number of fighters (or even better, limit the study to one vs one fights)
3. Weapons (same as above, limit to unarmed fights)
4. Context of the fight (drug/alcohol? schoolyard fight? gang related? road rage?)

MMA fights: Some things to account for:

1. Skill level of fighters (amateur, regional promotion, elite promotion, etc?)
2. scheduled length of the fight

I think if you can study a pool of sufficient size for each and account for some of these variables, it would be really interesting to see the results.

Some predictions I'd make:

• Fights between two drunk dudes will be a lot shorter than fights between two sober dudes.
• Drugs or alcohol would lead to a higher KO rate, as well, I'm guessing.
• Conversely, I'm curious if a street fight between two sober dudes for some other reason is typically over as quickly. I'm guessing not... but would be interested in finding out.
• MMA fights will get longer the higher up the MMA ladder you go because it's much more likely to see a huge disparity of skill in lower level promotions, even though they try to avoid that. You're also much more likely to see what amounts to a pure grappler vs pure striker or something along those lines, as many people come into the sport with a "base" of some kind.

Anyway, a 22 year old thread, but I thought this was an interesting thought.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You know, this is an interesting idea... do an actual study. I mean, I've seen a lot of MMA fights over the years, at all levels from amateur to elite.

So, let's see... factors to consider if we wanted to do an apples to apples comparison.

Street fights: we'd need a sample that is large enough to account for variations in context. Some contextual things I can think of that I'd want to account for:

1. Skill level of the fighters
2. Number of fighters (or even better, limit the study to one vs one fights)
3. Weapons (same as above, limit to unarmed fights)
4. Context of the fight (drug/alcohol? schoolyard fight? gang related? road rage?)

MMA fights: Some things to account for:

1. Skill level of fighters (amateur, regional promotion, elite promotion, etc?)
2. scheduled length of the fight

I think if you can study a pool of sufficient size for each and account for some of these variables, it would be really interesting to see the results.

Some predictions I'd make:

• Fights between two drunk dudes will be a lot shorter than fights between two sober dudes.
• Drugs or alcohol would lead to a higher KO rate, as well, I'm guessing.
• Conversely, I'm curious if a street fight between two sober dudes for some other reason is typically over as quickly. I'm guessing not... but would be interested in finding out.
• MMA fights will get longer the higher up the MMA ladder you go because it's much more likely to see a huge disparity of skill in lower level promotions, even though they try to avoid that. You're also much more likely to see what amounts to a pure grappler vs pure striker or something along those lines, as many people come into the sport with a "base" of some kind.

Anyway, a 22 year old thread, but I thought this was an interesting thought.

I think a study like this would be almost impossible to get right, the way you're describing. Mostly in the street fight areas. Ignore the formatting, copy/pasting and adding my own comments made it a bit weird.


To take all your factors into account:

1. Skill level of the fighters

How would we know this? I'd assume most would be found via youtube videos and/or police reports. Can we make the judgment of how skilled someone is. If someone's been training BJJ for years, but tries standup first for whatever reason and does badly, are they not skilled? Would we know about their skills otherwise? What if they're legitimately really good, but get suckerpunched in just the wrong way.

1. Number of fighters (or even better, limit the study to one vs one fights)

This one's easy to control for, which is nice. Only issue would be the potential for extra fighters being added in.

1. Weapons (same as above, limit to unarmed fights)

Same comment as above.

1. Context of the fight (drug/alcohol?

How will we know this? If someone calls someone else drunk in the video, do we take that at face value? If they're outside a bar, do we assume they had already started drinking? Can anyone (sans lab report) confidently state through a video of a fight, likely from a weird angle, if someone is high on coke, pcp, weed, or something else?

If we see someone swaying, are they drunk, or did they get rocked before the fight started?

1. schoolyard fight? gang related? road rage?)

These mostly seem easy to tell, except for the gang related.

To add to this- how do we know when the fight started? And what do we consider the start to be? Is it when they start jostling each other, or yelling at each other, or throw the first punch? If we're doing a comparison to MMA, are we using the same measurements (ie: if it's when the first punch is thrown for the streetfight, do we not count any circling that happens in an MMA fight as time)?

Ideally if this was to be a study, we'd have rows for each of these with a yes/no, or numerical value indicating severity, but if the researchers are just independent observers guesstimating those values, it's ultimately useless. The results/discussion sections of the study would tell us more about the researchers and/or observers (who are hopefully different than the researchers) biases, then it would give us actual information.

 

[jmf552]

@Monkey Turned Wolf, @Steve, the researcher gave the context that some months ago, he published a precursor to the the study in question that covered only 150 fights. Some people felt that was not enough, so he went at adding fights, but as a data analyst he realized the addition fights were not changing the results in any meaningful way.. He said that is one big factor in determining if a sample size is significant.

He also said that he plans to do some addition research in the future that covers some of the issues you have brought up. The problem will always be getting the data. It is one thing to get the video of a fight. It is another to get an accurate history of the combatants. I look at these things as "order of magnitude" results. There are factors that can change the numbers, as you point out, but it is probably a reasonable assumption that regardless, real fights don't last long and fights with clear winners are in the minority. It is also fair to assume that even with the factors you mentioned, KOs/TKOs probably occur quickly if they occur and if they do not, the fight goes to the ground. So the number of seconds and percentages may change a bit, but the basic principles remain the same.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

different martial arts styles mixing it up in competition or something against each other?

It can be interested to see a Taiji guy fights against a BJJ guy.

- The Taiji guy tries to push the BJJ guy away.
- The BJJ guy tries to hug the Taiji guy as tight as possible.

 

[Steve]

I think a study like this would be almost impossible to get right, the way you're describing. Mostly in the street fight areas. Ignore the formatting, copy/pasting and adding my own comments made it a bit weird.


To take all your factors into account:

1. Skill level of the fighters

How would we know this? I'd assume most would be found via youtube videos and/or police reports. Can we make the judgment of how skilled someone is. If someone's been training BJJ for years, but tries standup first for whatever reason and does badly, are they not skilled? Would we know about their skills otherwise? What if they're legitimately really good, but get suckerpunched in just the wrong way.

Good points. TBH, though, I don't think this really needs to be overthought. Do they look like they've had some training or not?

1. Number of fighters (or even better, limit the study to one vs one fights)

This one's easy to control for, which is nice. Only issue would be the potential for extra fighters being added in.

Yeah, and sticking with 1v1 keeps it more analogous.

1. Weapons (same as above, limit to unarmed fights)

Same comment as above.

1. Context of the fight (drug/alcohol?

How will we know this? If someone calls someone else drunk in the video, do we take that at face value? If they're outside a bar, do we assume they had already started drinking? Can anyone (sans lab report) confidently state through a video of a fight, likely from a weird angle, if someone is high on coke, pcp, weed, or something else?

Yeah, I'd say context. Is it a bar fight, a mugging, in a jail, at a high school. Regarding weed... come on, man.

If we see someone swaying, are they drunk, or did they get rocked before the fight started?

1. schoolyard fight? gang related? road rage?)

These mostly seem easy to tell, except for the gang related.

To add to this- how do we know when the fight started? And what do we consider the start to be? Is it when they start jostling each other, or yelling at each other, or throw the first punch? If we're doing a comparison to MMA, are we using the same measurements (ie: if it's when the first punch is thrown for the streetfight, do we not count any circling that happens in an MMA fight as time)?

Ideally if this was to be a study, we'd have rows for each of these with a yes/no, or numerical value indicating severity, but if the researchers are just independent observers guesstimating those values, it's ultimately useless. The results/discussion sections of the study would tell us more about the researchers and/or observers (who are hopefully different than the researchers) biases, then it would give us actual information.

Totally valid points. All things we'd need to figure out... now if we can just secure that grant money!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Good points. TBH, though, I don't think this really needs to be overthought. Do they look like they've had some training or not?

Yeah, and sticking with 1v1 keeps it more analogous.


Yeah, I'd say context. Is it a bar fight, a mugging, in a jail, at a high school. Regarding weed... come on, man.


Totally valid points. All things we'd need to figure out... now if we can just secure that grant money!

You get the money, I'll turn it into a study that at least has the potential to pass some boards

 

[Steve]

You get the money, I'll turn it into a study that at least has the potential to pass some boards

Ouch. But okay.