Loyalty

[Twin Fist]

i disagree. The relationship between a teacher and student is much, much deeper than client and trainer.

MOST of us are not in martial arts just to learn movements. We are there to become better people

my instructor helps me do that

a good martial arts instructor is coach, trainer, friend, mentor, leader, and guide.

That sort of relationship is intense, and deserves the respect.

When i opened my school, i asked permission, not because i needed to, but because it was the right thing to do. Getting a release from your instructor is the same thing, it is just done out of respect.

Now that being said, i keep my own council. Just cuz my instructor doesnt like someone, that doesnt mean i will dislike them out of reflex, but I am respectfull of thier opinion.

Now i dont use titles, japaense doesnt work for me, as I teach a korean system, and the korean titles sound goofy to my ear, I like the titles they use in kaju, but i aint teaching Kaju, yet anyway.

to my students, at WORST "Mr Tygart" , but if someone has earned the title, you use it.

i wouldnt call my doctor by his first name, he EARNED getting called "Dr"

 

[tellner]

Nope TF, I do get it. It took decades. I kissed **** when asked, gave all the "respect" and "loyalty" that was demanded (but not returned in kind) and did whatever the clown with the fancy title demanded. I finally had my nose rubbed in it enough to recognize the smell. And over roughly thirty five years, some of them very rough indeed, I eventually learned a few things.

I've put some particulars into another thread. Please feel free to read and comment on them there.

 

[myusername]

Excellent points Tellner. Reading this thread I cringe at the idea of asking an instructors permission to train in another style. It seems as outdated, stuffy and as ethically unsound as asking a man permission to marry his daughter! By asking, it implies that the instructor has the power to deny permission. It is you giving up your free will.

People mentioned that they would ask out of politeness but that implies that they are asking in the secure knowledge that the instructor will definately grant permission anyway. It implies that even though they are asking they will do what they want regardless! I would argue that as well as being rather pointless this is more disrespectful than not asking in the first place!

I left my TKD class and after a while began training in other disciplines. By doing so I have found a wonderful jujutsu class. I have now returned to my TKD class and I am still training in the jujutsu. I did not feel the need to ask either instructor for their blessing to train in either style. This is not because I disrespect my teachers but because I respect myself. I have a tremendous amount of respect for my instructors. In regards to the TKD, the fact that I left and went out and sampled what was out there and still returned means that my instructor is obviously very, very good. It is clear from my actions that I have a lot of respect for his skills and wish to learn more from him.

Martial Arts isn't just a commodity to me. For me personally, it is shaping up to be a way of living and thinking. However, my journey in martial arts is my story and no one elses. It is not my instructors journey it is mine. I very much doubt my instructors would expect me to ask them for their permission to live my own life.

 

[jarrod]

i ask my coaches' input on a wide variety of things, martial arts related or otherwise, because aside from being terrific MAists, they are terrific people & i value their thoughts. ultimately, our decisions are our own though. it's a simple matter of being accountable for your own actions, which imo is one of the most important character traits to develop whether through martial arts or other means.

incidentally, my current instructors actively encourage cross-training, & are cross-trained themselves.

jf

 

[Sandstorm]

IMO, if you have to 'ask' your instructor permission to train elsewhere, they are the wrong instructor for you. In this day and age, we should be united and free to spread our knowledge and learning. Any instructor worth his salt should have enough faith in their teachings to know it's nothing personal on the student's part. Cross-training is a massive part of MA right now, and will continue to be so. These dinosaur instructor will soon fade out as the will of the students to gain more knowledge becomes paramount.

 

[Guardian]

I'll keep my view to you simple.

You moved, your in a new school, go with them, keep what you know, but be with them. It's pretty simple in my view.

 

[MJS]

i disagree. The relationship between a teacher and student is much, much deeper than client and trainer.

MOST of us are not in martial arts just to learn movements. We are there to become better people

my instructor helps me do that

a good martial arts instructor is coach, trainer, friend, mentor, leader, and guide.

That sort of relationship is intense, and deserves the respect.

When i opened my school, i asked permission, not because i needed to, but because it was the right thing to do. Getting a release from your instructor is the same thing, it is just done out of respect.

Now that being said, i keep my own council. Just cuz my instructor doesnt like someone, that doesnt mean i will dislike them out of reflex, but I am respectfull of thier opinion.

Now i dont use titles, japaense doesnt work for me, as I teach a korean system, and the korean titles sound goofy to my ear, I like the titles they use in kaju, but i aint teaching Kaju, yet anyway.

to my students, at WORST "Mr Tygart" , but if someone has earned the title, you use it.

i wouldnt call my doctor by his first name, he EARNED getting called "Dr"

And I have the utmost respect for my teachers as well. However, if I choose to study Aikido, I do not feel that I need to clear that with my Kenpo teacher first. I don't clear what I eat for dinner with them, what time I get up or go to bed. And yes, the majority of my teachers have developed a personal relationship with me. I've hung out with them outside of class, as well as been privy to things that are either not taught to others in the class. Again, I have respect for all of them, but I do not feel that I need to clear with them, what I do outside of the dojo.

Now that being said, i keep my own council. Just cuz my instructor doesnt like someone, that doesnt mean i will dislike them out of reflex, but I am respectfull of thier opinion.

I spoke of this in another post in this thread. It was a personal issue that involved me, and a few other people. His opinion was that because he disliked this person, I should do the same. Sorry, I'm not a robot, that can be programmed to do what he chooses. He had his opinion, and thats fine. But again, my relationship with this other person is just that...mine. Interestingly enough, I invited both of these gentlemen to my wedding. My inst. was my best man. I heard from someone else, that he commented, "Why is (intentionally left blank) here?" Umm..excuse me, but whos wedding is this again? Oh yeah, it was mine. Therefore, I will invite or not invite anyone I choose. I chose to have this other person there, and if someone had an issue with it, too damn bad.

 

[Steve]

My personal opinion is that it's about what is comfortable for you. I immediately felt comfortable with the school I'm in right now, just as I always had nagging problems with my previous school.

I think that everyone should always keep their wits about them in any relationship, but the bottom line is how the school suits the specific person. If you don't like the idea of crosstraining, finding a school of like minded people is a good fit.

I will also say that decisions have consequences. Recently, a person I like very much got fed up with not being promoted to purple belt. Instead of talking to our coach, he went off and got his purple belt at another school. When my instructor found out, he was understandably miffed, and now a guy I really like is no longer training at my school. It sucks, but he made a decision.

Likewise, if you're at a school that discourages crosstraining, it IS your decision, but understand that your decision may have consequences. While your instructor can't keep you from crosstraining if you wish, he CAN choose to refuse to train you. So, what started as your desire to crosstrain might end up being you simply training somewhere else.

 

[stickarts]

I have always discussed my training with my teachers and got their feedback but in the end the decision is always mine to make. I want a healthy relationship with my teachers and good communication is part of that. Once we each know where the others stands we go from there. This has always worked well for me. As a teacher I always appreciate communication from my students but of course their training is always their decision as well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just2kicku, I'm sorry to say that that is one of the most depressing things I have heard in a long time. Somewhere along the way the martial arts world lost its collective sense of perspective. Using loaded words like "Master" was a big part of the problem. I'd be in favor of giving ten swift kicks to the tender parts of any martial arts student who calls his teacher "Master", twenty for "Grandmaster" and fifty or sixty to the bloated egos which demand grandiose terms like that.

Eh.. master I look at as a term no different than 'doctor'. I see it in the light of 'master craftsman' and a master/apprentice relationship, not a master as in 'master/servant' relationship.

Master is the accepted term in western society, even though 99% of the titles translated as 'master' generally mean teacher.

I never call GM Kim 'Grandmaster' when speaking to him. I refer to him as 'Grandmaster' or GM because he heads his own organization (small though it may be), owns two schools, each with 'masters' working under him. I view the term 'grandmaster' as the equivalent of 'headmaster,' which is a legitamate academic title.

I do call him Master Kim. He holds a 6th dan Kukkiwon rank, and that is the appropriate honorific, just as someone with an MD is appropriately called doctor.

Now, to be fair, he has never demanded to be called grandmaster and doesn't try to coerce people to suck up. He asks that you show up in class and learn.

Having said all that, I do agree with you about bloated egos. Way too many paper tigers with more titles than techniques in the martial arts world.

Daniel

 

[Zero]

Tellner, a good rant, didn't fancy the poem but had to agree re the leather bikini!!

As you say its about keeping it in perspective. If some Jo wants to shell out some greenbacks and learn a few things and call someone GrandMaster Big Kahuna and has no problem with that, then who are we or you to care...shoot, people are happy to pay for anything these days and it's no worse than paying for an S&M session (not that I condone or partake in such morally abhorent activities myself of course).

I do agree that an instructor or teacher that is against cross training in another art (unless of course you are coming up for a specific tournament or forms competition in their particular style, which I could understand them then being concerned on the degree of focus) could be letting off alarm bells for a closed mind and approach to fighting and MA. And they should generally have no right to try to prevent you, they do have the right to kick you out of their own gym however if they don't like it.

 

[Danjo]

Just2kicku, I'm sorry to say that that is one of the most depressing things I have heard in a long time. Somewhere along the way the martial arts world lost its collective sense of perspective. Using loaded words like "Master" was a big part of the problem. I'd be in favor of giving ten swift kicks to the tender parts of any martial arts student who calls his teacher "Master", twenty for "Grandmaster" and fifty or sixty to the bloated egos which demand grandiose terms like that.

• 
  
  [*]You're learning a set of athletic skills in a club.
  [*]The guy with the funny clothes is a coach.
  [*]You're a free, mentally competent adult human being who is paying good money to enjoy a hobby.
  [*]That means you do what you perceive as being in your own best interest.

If you want to add another hobby that's your decision. If it makes you progress a bit more slowly in the first one the only question is whether your ultimate joy and personal fulfillment suffer as a result. The head coach may decide that he doesn't want your business. That's his decision. But for crissake, man, you're not a freaking slave cringing while he asks his owner's permission to breathe.

Well, do you think it's debasing to call your grandfather "Grand Pa?" Or to call your Uncle "Uncle"? Titles within a family are a sign of respect, not debasement. In Kajukenbo, we're Ohana which means family. So we have titles that we use and protocols that we observe. I'm sure there are families out there where the kids just call their parents by their first names etc., but not in ours. Don't confuse respect with debasement.

 

[jarrod]

Well, do you think it's debasing to call your grandfather "Grand Pa?" Or to call your Uncle "Uncle"? Titles within a family are a sign of respect, not debasement. In Kajukenbo, we're Ohana which means family. So we have titles that we use and protocols that we observe. I'm sure there are families out there where the kids just call their parents by their first names etc., but not in ours. Don't confuse respect with debasement.

the difference is that "uncle" & "grandpa" aren't so much titles as ways to designate your relationship to someone...same as "teacher", "coach", "sifu, etc. if one of my uncles had a ph.d. i don't think he'd expect me to call him "doctor".

my judo/jujitsu coach holds 7th dan ranks in both arts, which qualifies him for the title of master, but insists on being called by his first name or simply "coach". he sometimes points out that everyone is a master in something.

the whole issue of using terms like master or grandmaster really just comes down to personal preference. to me even the comparatively casual title of coach indicates a deep respect. master has different cannotations for me, & i'm not comfortable calling someone that. if others are, that's okay & it's their choice.

jf

 

[kaizasosei]

I think you will have to concentrate on being true to yourself and deciding for yourself how you want to do things...still, i would use the opportunity you have and at least try out anything the new school has to offer...who knows, they may do something better or there might be a valuable lesson contained in the ever so slight differences. If not, then at least you'll know for sure what is better for you as well as objectively better for a certain situation.
oldschool newschool- what happens if people like how you do things and ask you.. might even be that you have stuff to offer too, but i'd try to keep in line while at regular training and not stand out more than is natural.

Noone can really force you to move a certain way. Either you play along or you opt not to.-

Some people would be more strict about this stuff and say ' you have to train like you want to fight-because otherwise in the heat of combat, you won't know what to do.'
Might be a point there, but i think the chance to see different teachings, different arts is more valuable and not a problem perse.

There's always a positive side...might be an easier stance, might offer more possibilties..?? other than just being confusing..there's always a first time.





j

 

[Stonecold]

There is no question of loyaity. Life changes , you have to change with it. The new instructor seems comfortable with you and your rank in kenpo, your old instructor should be fine with it as well. Instructors should encourage students to learn all they can and continue to train. Train hard at the new style. Retain the kenpo style. Use the best of both when needed.Let the guilt go, embrace the new.