Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Tez3]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu Wang IMO, you are the master and your style is you slave. You should train your system "the way that you want to train" and not allowing your system to force you to train the system wants you to train.


That doesn't make any sense. If you are a beginner how can you not train your 'system'? How would you have the knowledge not to be 'forced' into training the way your system wants you to? and why would you train in a system and completely ignore it's teaching and way of training, what would be the point? I'm sorry I don't understand that at all. No one is 'forced' to train anyway at all, one chooses one's art according to what suits you, your pocket and your sense of self, to then ignore all the teaching seems nonsensical.

 

[Hanzou]

That'd be fine if that's what you were actually saying (just that you didn't like kata)… except it wasn't. What you were saying was that kata "didn't work"… "wasn't what you saw in sparring"… there was the constant rhetoric of kata not being "needed" in other arts (which denied the structure, history, ideals, beliefs, values, reasons, perspectives, and realities of both kata-based and non-kata systems on a huge number of levels)… lot's of implications that it was contrary to the skills, and so on… all of which while abjectly refusing to look at what kata actually is, or what it's designed to do.

All of which came from my personal experiences with kata. I didn't like it because in my experience it wasn't being used for anything other than rank padding. We weren't being taught its usefulness, just that it was something we had to do to advance to the next belt. My experiences in TKD and TSD were largely the same. When I met a guy who practiced MMA, it really opened my eyes to what my training lacked; practicality. That same practicality is what drew me to Judo and eventually Bjj. There wasn't this twerp standing next to me pointing out how my foot wasn't turned the right way, or my elbow wasn't pressed against my hip properly. In the latter arts I could feel if I was doing things right or wrong, and I could just accordingly.

That said, are you able to go back and answer my questions from my previous post to you? It may help avoid such issues in the future… on both sides.

What questions in particular? Your previous post was pretty long.

 

[Tames D]

Or his accounts under review because there was something shady going on

Member Accounts can be under review for many reasons. It doesn't automatically mean something "shady" is going on. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt, since you are not involved in the the backroom discussion.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you really training in Long Fist if you're not training Long Fist forms, though?

A form can be as simple as a sentence such as "This is a book".

This - subject
is - verb
a - article
book - object.

Through a form (sentence), you can learn "grammar" and "vocabulary". The important thing is not this sentence itself but how to use the same grammar to construct other sentence such as:

- This is a pen.
- That is a book.
- This is not a book.
- ...

Even if you have repeated "This is a book" 1,000,000 times in your life, that sentence is still "only a sentence". You should start to use the grammar and vocabulary to create your own sentences instead.

If you have learned "groin kick, face punch" combo from your form, you should be able to come up with:

- foot sweep, back fist,
- low roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- ...

The form is the starting point. It's not the ending point. It's the information inside the forms that you need to dig out and expand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are a beginner how can you not train your 'system'?

Of course you will need to learn "all the forms" that your system can offer to you. After you have completed your system, you can start to be the master and let your style to be your slave. This is different from "your system is your master for the rest of your life".

I have learned all the forms that my long fist system has to offer. Do I want to spend the rest of my life to repeat my forms over and over? Of course not. I have more important thing to do (such as "entering strategies" and "finish strategies"). I just don't have the time to concentrate on one single system no matter how much that I love my long fist system.

How would you have the knowledge not to be 'forced' into training the way your system wants you to?

After you have learned all the open hand forms, you have also learned

- 1 dagger form,
- 2 Dao forms,
- 2 Jean form,
- 2 staff forms, and
- 1 spear form.

If your interest is not in the traditional weapon training, do you want to stay for another 2 years in your system to learn another 6 weapon forms in order to be 100% complete in your system, or will you just move on and try to learn another system instead?

 

[Tez3]

A form can be as simple as a sentence such as "This is a book".

This - subject
is - verb
a - article
book - object.

Through a form (sentence), you can learn "grammar" and "vocabulary". The important thing is not this sentence itself but how to use the same grammar to construct other sentence such as:

- This is a pen.
- That is a book.
- This is not a book.
- ...

Even if you have repeated "This is a book" 1,000,000 times in your life, that sentence is still "only a sentence". You should start to use the grammar and vocabulary to create your own sentences instead.

If you have learned "groin kick, face punch" combo from your form, you should be able to come up with:

- foot sweep, back fist,
- low roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- ...

The form is the starting point. It's not the ending point. It's the information inside the forms that you need to dig out and expand.

Unwise. I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.
Bruce Lee

 

[ballen0351]

Member Accounts can be under review for many reasons. It doesn't automatically mean something "shady" is going on. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt, since you are not involved in the the backroom discussion.

Why? He came here trolling in my opinion and now his account is under review. If it look like a duck,quacks like a duck well.......

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Unwise. I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.
Bruce Lee

I agree! But a general will need many soldiers to protect him.

If you want your "left side kick" to work, when your opponent block your left side kick and spin your body to your

- left, you may need to follow up with a right palm strike to his neck.
- right, you may need to follow up with a right spin back fist to his head.

So a "side kick" is more than just a "side kick". To use it against someone on your level, you will need more than that.

If you want to make your "head lock" work, you have to master 20 other skills such as, twist, spring, lift, block, cut, over hook, crack, ... The reason is simple, your opponent may respond in 20 different ways. For each of his responds, you should have a good follow up move for it. For each of his counters for your follow up, you will need to have your counter for his counter as well.

If you train:

- technique,
- counters to that technique,
- counters to those counters to that technique,
- ...

You will start to grow a "tree" with many branches. If you grow many trees, you will grow a "forest". If you develop your MA skill this way, you will find out that you no longer have the luxury to repeat the forms that you have learned from your teacher. You will spend the rest of your life to take information out of your forms and start to grow your "tree" one after another.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You may want to develop your own "entering strategy - move in without been hit" and "finish strategy - knock/take down your opponent ASAP". It will require the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game. This may take the majority of your personal training time. IMO, it's much more important than to spend your time in your solo forms training.

 

[Tez3]

I agree! But a general will need many soldiers to protect him.

If you want your "left side kick" to work, when your opponent block your left side kick and spin your body to your

- left, you may need to follow up with a right palm strike to his neck.
- right, you may need to follow up with a right spin back fist to his head.

So a "side kick" is more than just a "side kick". To use it against someone on your level, you will need more than that.

If you want to make your "head lock" work, you have to master 20 other skills such as, twist, spring, lift, block, cut, over hook, crack, ... The reason is simple, your opponent may respond in 20 different ways. For each of his responds, you should have a good follow up move for it. For each of his counters for your follow up, you will need to have your counter for his counter as well.

If you train:

- technique,
- counters to that technique,
- counters to those counters to that technique,
- ...

You will start to grow a "tree" with many branches. If you grow many trees, you will grow a "forest". If you develop your MA skill this way, you will find out that you no longer have the luxury to repeat the forms that you have learned from your teacher. You will spend the rest of your life to take information out of your forms and start to grow your "tree" one after another.

Generals don't need protecting, that's not what soldiers are for. As for the rest, I train simply, I don't over think and I don't really like being lectured about 'horticulture' nor am I keen on faux philosophy.

 

[Tames D]

Why? He came here trolling in my opinion and now his account is under review. If it look like a duck,quacks like a duck well.......

So you ASSume he's a troll.

 

[ballen0351]

So you ASSume he's a troll.

Yep and now so are you. Get over it man he's gone who cares

 

[Tames D]

Yep and now so are you. Get over it man he's gone who cares

So now I'm a troll. You are a piece of work dude.

 

[ballen0351]

So now I'm a troll. You are a piece of work dude.

Hmmmm 12 pages of some pretty good comments on the actual topic yet you pic one small unrelated post from 2 days ago to have an objection to.......yep troll. Beat feet dude

 

[Tames D]

Hmmmm 12 pages of some pretty good comments on the actual topic yet you pic one small unrelated post from 2 days ago to have an objection to.......yep troll. Beat feet dude

Bring your ego down a couple of notches little man.

 

[ballen0351]

Bring your ego down a couple of notches little man.

LOL Thanks I have been working out and on a diet Im glad you noticed.........so do you plan on actually discussing the topic here?

 

[Tames D]

LOL Thanks I have been working out and on a diet Im glad you noticed.........so do you plan on actually discussing the topic here?

You can LOL all you want. I responded to your PM. Your bully tactics won't work on me. I guarantee it!

 

[ballen0351]

You can LOL all you want. I responded to your PM. Your bully tactics won't work on me. I guarantee it!

So no your not planning on discussing the topic?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-

 

[Chris Parker]

All of which came from my personal experiences with kata. I didn't like it because in my experience it wasn't being used for anything other than rank padding. We weren't being taught its usefulness, just that it was something we had to do to advance to the next belt. My experiences in TKD and TSD were largely the same.

The problem is that that's nothing to do with kata as a training methodology, as (if that's the way you were taught it), that's not training in kata.

When I met a guy who practiced MMA, it really opened my eyes to what my training lacked; practicality. That same practicality is what drew me to Judo and eventually Bjj.

"Practicality" depends entirely on the context, of course...

There wasn't this twerp standing next to me pointing out how my foot wasn't turned the right way, or my elbow wasn't pressed against my hip properly. In the latter arts I could feel if I was doing things right or wrong, and I could just accordingly.

Hmm… "twerp"? I can see how the respect you had for your teacher continues to today… but more to the point, did you ever stop to think about why they were giving the corrections? I mean… I can get quite pedantic on my students form… for very good reasons. And, as far as you can just "feel" when it's right or not, to be honest, I'm not convinced of that… I'd suggest you can certainly feel when you think it's "right"… but your coach standing next to you could often give you a pointer to improve what you're doing… which is really exactly the same as the "twerp" telling you to be aware of where your elbow is.

What questions in particular? Your previous post was pretty long.

There were really only two questions… and that post wasn't long, trust me.

The questions are: What do you think kata is actually for, and what it's supposed to give the student? And what "high rank" did you achieve in your Shotokan training?

Member Accounts can be under review for many reasons. It doesn't automatically mean something "shady" is going on. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt, since you are not involved in the the backroom discussion.

I don't know quite what the OP was doing… or why his account is "under review"… but I will say that my suspicions were raised on the first post… starting by saying that English is not his primary language, then continuing to be pretty much flawless in his grammar, spelling, use of idioms, and a range of unusual words that, frankly, I'd only expect a fully fluent (and commonly native speaker) of English to use… such as "irks"… "asinine"… "cannot help but fail to think"… Frankly, there's no way that English was his second language to the point that any allowances would need to be made.

A form can be as simple as a sentence such as "This is a book".

This - subject
is - verb
a - article
book - object.

Through a form (sentence), you can learn "grammar" and "vocabulary". The important thing is not this sentence itself but how to use the same grammar to construct other sentence such as:

- This is a pen.
- That is a book.
- This is not a book.
- ...

Even if you have repeated "This is a book" 1,000,000 times in your life, that sentence is still "only a sentence". You should start to use the grammar and vocabulary to create your own sentences instead.

If you have learned "groin kick, face punch" combo from your form, you should be able to come up with:

- foot sweep, back fist,
- low roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- side kick, spin back fist,
- ...

The form is the starting point. It's not the ending point. It's the information inside the forms that you need to dig out and expand.

Er… none of that is really anything to do with what I asked you… or the question of mine you quoted…