Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[HankSchrader]

Greetings all

Forgive me, English is not my first language. I am new to this forum and was looking for some guidance.

I've recently started Kyokushin and I enjoy it, however in my opinion too much time is spent on Kata and I fail to see any relevance it has to combat. We are taught kata and we go through the motions for the sake of "grading" but it really irks me as this takes the place of "live" training for major parts of sessions. I understand that Kata is supposedly a recording of techniques (however everyone teachers bunkai seems to be different which leads me to believe noone really has any idea) but why not train the techniques in kata in an alive manner first, before going through the motions of kata and committing them to memory? It would give the movements a context at least. I don't know why we even bother with Kata? If a kata supposedly has a takedown or throw recorded in it then students are not going to get good at it by doing the move its represented by in kata, they're going to get good at it by drilling it and using it in randoori against resisting opponents. Doing hours of kata isn't going to help anyone become a better martial artist than someone who solely does their whole art in an alive manner. For self defence purposes its asinine to waste time doing an act which represents something, yet not actually doing the move properly. I come from a grappling background in martial arts (wrestling, bjj) and in those arts you spend 100% of your time doing the art. A 2 hour training session in those arts involves 5 minutes warm up and 2 hours of practicing on fully resisting opponents. But in Kyokushin its split in half with kata which is very infuriating as noone at my club seems to have any experience doing the actual moves in kata on resisting opponents. Why can't karate just do away with Kata and teach the moves within kata in an alive manner? So if Kata has grappling and wrestling applications then lets just do those moves in randoori, if there's self defence applications, like getting out of wrist control then lets add that into randoori. If there's clinch fighting in Kata, then lets train that and add it into randoori etc. Just doing kata for the sake of it seems such a waste of time. If you want to do kata have the option there, similar to when you get to BB in Judo you can choose to learn a Kata, but practice Kata on your own or minimally in class. There is 0 logic in having a solo training method as part of a class group, it just wastes time.

Karate seems to be built on lineage and instructors seem terrified to deviate from the path that their teachers laid out and their teachers teacher before them. Just because your teacher taught you to do kata doesn't make it right. If karate has elements of all ranges of combat inherent in its kata, then it must be treated as such properly and trained in a modern alive way. Much like the striking segment of Kyokushin is, in competition format.

I would love it if Kyokushin just stuck to stand up and competition rules stuff as it would have a strong identity doing so. But when it is watered down with Kata and those elements are not elaborated upon, it just becomes weaker due to tradition. Why can't Karate grow up like other modern arts? Its self defence applications are severely weakened by these lazy training methods.

Does anyone else share these gripes?

 

[Buka]

Welcome to the forum, Hank.
I understand your concerns, but before we even go there, why would you give up wrestling and BJJ for Karate?

And...are there any other striking schools in your area that you've considered?

 

[Mephisto]

Whoa! Careful using such strong language about kata, that's heresy to some! I've never trained karate but in many circles kyokushin comes highly recommended due to its emphasis on alive training and competition, I'm still not sure if anyone in the MMA community uses it as a striking component. I'm with you on kata, I don't see the point training to simulate an act you never do, especially if the moves are hidden in bunkai. You can find combative roots to moves in some traditional dances but no one learns traditional dance to get better at fighting (ok maybe, capoeira). I think kata has value for solo training and I think minimal time should be spent on it in group sessions. I've previously read that kata is newer than many people think and that traditionally karate didn't have such an emphasis on kata. Kata seems like an antiquated training method from times when moves had to be hidden, due to oppressive governments or the need to keep fighting secrets a secret until a student proved trustworthy of the real fighting knowledge. It's a way to keep students in the dark and keep getting their money all in the name of patience and character building. It may have been more beneficial in times when one trained 10 hours a day both with and without partners, most of us are lucky to get in 6-8 hours a week as such application is very important.

You could talk to your instructor but if you're the only one complaining it might be pointless. You might not be right for the school, perhaps there are other kyokushin schools near by that spend less time on kata. Or maybe your school is just emphasizing kata at present and will transition to other things later. This is why I train boxing, the workouts are grueling, and everything directly relates to how you fight, not to mention its cheap!

 

[TimoS]

I've previously read that kata is newer than many people think and that traditionally karate didn't have such an emphasis on kata

I would like to know where you read that, because that is not how it is. Sure, the moves that make up the kata were there first, but the entire reason for kata (or forms) training is that it is a nice compact way of passing on knowledge to people who may or not be able to read and write. The basics that you do in karate are from kata. Well, most of them anyway. The combinations that you do with a partner are, or maybe I should say that they should be, from kata. To me, there is just kata. There is no division between kihon, kata and kumite. It's all kata. Now, I'll agree that just doing the kata only by yourself is not very beneficial. You really need a partner and a teacher who actually understands kata.

 

[Tez3]

So many incorrect generalisations in the OP that I'm a bit stuck as to where to start to answer. It sounds like the rant of someone who hates karate rather than someone who is training in it. I'm going to have to think about this one otherwise if I answer straight away it will come over as very harsh. I understand that many don't do or see why they should 'do' kata but I also think one should train in a style that you love rather than one you as a beginner consider 'all wrong'.

 

[HankSchrader]

I didn't give up on them Buka, I never will. I just wanted to see if anyone else loved Karate but hated kata. Yeah there's lots of Muay Thai schools around, but Kyokushin had been something that had interested me for a long time.

 

[HankSchrader]

So many incorrect generalisations in the OP that I'm a bit stuck as to where to start to answer. It sounds like the rant of someone who hates karate rather than someone who is training in it. I'm going to have to think about this one otherwise if I answer straight away it will come over as very harsh. I understand that many don't do or see why they should 'do' kata but I also think one should train in a style that you love rather than one you as a beginner consider 'all wrong'.

How am I generalising my own experiences? I'm a grown up, someone's "harsh" words online really do not bother me so feel free to type freely. I love the practical side of Karate and what Kyokushin can offer, my gripe is that it could be so much "better" if Kata was abandoned in my opinion.

 

[HankSchrader]

Whoa! Careful using such strong language about kata, that's heresy to some! I've never trained karate but in many circles kyokushin comes highly recommended due to its emphasis on alive training and competition, I'm still not sure if anyone in the MMA community uses it as a striking component. I'm with you on kata, I don't see the point training to simulate an act you never do, especially if the moves are hidden in bunkai. You can find combative roots to moves in some traditional dances but no one learns traditional dance to get better at fighting (ok maybe, capoeira). I think kata has value for solo training and I think minimal time should be spent on it in group sessions. I've previously read that kata is newer than many people think and that traditionally karate didn't have such an emphasis on kata. Kata seems like an antiquated training method from times when moves had to be hidden, due to oppressive governments or the need to keep fighting secrets a secret until a student proved trustworthy of the real fighting knowledge. It's a way to keep students in the dark and keep getting their money all in the name of patience and character building. It may have been more beneficial in times when one trained 10 hours a day both with and without partners, most of us are lucky to get in 6-8 hours a week as such application is very important.

You could talk to your instructor but if you're the only one complaining it might be pointless. You might not be right for the school, perhaps there are other kyokushin schools near by that spend less time on kata. Or maybe your school is just emphasizing kata at present and will transition to other things later. This is why I train boxing, the workouts are grueling, and everything directly relates to how you fight, not to mention its cheap!

Wow you took the words right out of my mouth there and said it much better than I could. I am the only one complaining about it unfortunately so maybe you are right. Time spent on application is very important I agree, at present its only open for 4-6 hours a week but nearly half of that is Kata. Boxing sounds like a good way to go thankyou for your comment

 

[Grenadier]

I've recently started Kyokushin and I enjoy it, however in my opinion too much time is spent on Kata and I fail to see any relevance it has to combat. We are taught kata and we go through the motions for the sake of "grading" but it really irks me as this takes the place of "live" training for major parts of sessions.

Kata gives you a chance to practice the technique in the most perfect manner possible. It's not designed to teach you how to fight, but rather, to help you improve your fundamental techniques to the point where you don't have to think about it while throwing the technique when doing so under less-than-perfect circumstances.

For example, learning how to punch from a chambered position isn't going to be seen in an actual fight, but that doesn't mean that such practice was without merit. If anything, learning to punch from the chambered position, using a good hikite (pullback), developing correct tension in the lateral muscles, etc., all helps when you throw that punch in an actual fight, that your body mechanics stay synchronized based on good tension and direction.

Even more importantly, it teaches you proper timing, distancing, acceleration, and most importantly, control. Even when you're in a full contact sparring session, which Kyokushin dojos often do, there is still an element of control that must be learned (and demonstrated) before they trust you to go full contact with someone who might not be able to handle your full power shots. Remember, even in full contact jiyu-kumite, you're still there to help each other out, that it's still a partnered drill where both practitioners benefit.

Once someone understands good bodily mechanics and control, then teaching them any kind of advanced technique is usually quite simple. It may seem like taking the longer path, but in the end, it's much safer and productive than letting someone just go all out from the start.

I don't know why we even bother with Kata? If a kata supposedly has a takedown or throw recorded in it then students are not going to get good at it by doing the move its represented by in kata, they're going to get good at it by drilling it and using it in randoori against resisting opponents.

Again, the bigger picture states that the use of kata to perfect someone's techniques and mechanics is the primary goal. Once someone has these techniques and mechanics in hand, then it's actually much more straight-foward teaching someone how to perform throws, takedowns, etc., based on these mechanics. For example, if someone uses mechanics similar to the classical knife-hand block, but apply it close in using the hip twisting motion that has been deeply ingrained through many hours of kata training, along with a good sense memory of how the body works, allows him to perform a throw with relative ease.

Otherwise, if someone does not have an understanding of how the body works, and does not have the proper conditioning, you end up with his learning how to throw using too much upper body, poor synchronization of the lower and upper, etc., which leads to interfering with his development.


That being said, there probably are other ways for someone to develop mechanics, techniques and conditioning that don't involve kata. However, to say that kata is useless for such work is missing the big picture.

Doing hours of kata isn't going to help anyone become a better martial artist than someone who solely does their whole art in an alive manner. For self defence purposes its asinine to waste time doing an act which represents something, yet not actually doing the move properly.

That is where we will simply disagree. Good techniques / mechanics are good techniques / mechanics, plain and simple. They can be applied to both a "kata" and a "non-kata" situation, and someone with those good mechanics is going to be able to hit pretty darn hard in an actual fight. Even if you're not punching from a fully chambered position, the countless number of hours spent practicing good synchronization of the lower body and the upper body (both with hip twisting and driving forward with one's legs), along with proper tension underneath the arm, will still be a very strong punch, and quite combat-worthy.

I come from a grappling background in martial arts (wrestling, bjj) and in those arts you spend 100% of your time doing the art. A 2 hour training session in those arts involves 5 minutes warm up and 2 hours of practicing on fully resisting opponents. But in Kyokushin its split in half with kata which is very infuriating as noone at my club seems to have any experience doing the actual moves in kata on resisting opponents. Why can't karate just do away with Kata and teach the moves within kata in an alive manner?

I have explained the value of kata training above. It's not the most easily apparent way to get a good set of fundamentals and mechanics, but it does work, and works quite well.

Think of it this way... If you have someone who wants to learn how to become a world-class vocalist / singer, it only makes sense that the said musician is going to spend countless hours of time practicing scales, arpeggios, intonation, vibrato, etc., before being considered ready to tackle on a difficult piece of music. Otherwise, if a voice teacher made his student sing "The Barber of Seville" during an early phase, it might not be a very productive session at all. Such a singer must be able to demonstrate that he is capable of having the correct techniques and training before being able to reap the benefits from tackling on a difficult song.

That being said, there are some truly talented individuals (both in music and martial arts) who might be able to "get it" at a very early stage. More power to them, but for the overwhelming majority of folks in these fields, it takes time and patience.

There is 0 logic in having a solo training method as part of a class group, it just wastes time.

Karate seems to be built on lineage and instructors seem terrified to deviate from the path that their teachers laid out and their teachers teacher before them. Just because your teacher taught you to do kata doesn't make it right. If karate has elements of all ranges of combat inherent in its kata, then it must be treated as such properly and trained in a modern alive way. Much like the striking segment of Kyokushin is, in competition format.

I would love it if Kyokushin just stuck to stand up and competition rules stuff as it would have a strong identity doing so. But when it is watered down with Kata and those elements are not elaborated upon, it just becomes weaker due to tradition. Why can't Karate grow up like other modern arts? Its self defence applications are severely weakened by these lazy training methods.

It comes with patience and time. While you may not see the value of kata training at this stage (you just started, after all), as you get more advanced, you'll grow to appreciate it.

Does anyone else share these gripes?

When I first started out, yes, I did share those gripes. It wasn't until I was a green belt that I realized that there was a lot to be appreciated from Sensei's methods, and even now, after almost 30 years of training, the experience never gets stale.

 

[K-man]

Coming from a Japanese based style I had similar thoughts about kata until I was introduced to the Okinawan Goju. They teach the application of kata, something that in the past was totally unrealistic, and now I spend much of the time training kata bunkai. However, I do agree with you that in the context of competitive sparring, kata has limited use because it is designed for close contact fighting, not sparring distance.
:asian:

 

[Tez3]

How am I generalising my own experiences? I'm a grown up, someone's "harsh" words online really do not bother me so feel free to type freely. I love the practical side of Karate and what Kyokushin can offer, my gripe is that it could be so much "better" if Kata was abandoned in my opinion.

Actually I wasn't concerned that harsh words would upset you, more that this is a site where considered replies are preferred.

The simple answer is that the training of kata where you are is either not being done correctly or that you are failing to understand that training. Kata is hugely practical...if you know how to train it. The fact that you don't know this doesn't mean that kata should be abandoned, it means only you don't know or understand. Why throw the baby out with the bath water. If you choose not to learn kata, Bunkai and kumite, that's fine but to think that it should be thrown out of karate because you don't like it is like saying no one should wear a specific colour because you dislike that colour.

 

[ballen0351]

Found your problem

I've recently started

Give it time. Your new your dont see the value of Kata yet. If you stick with it you will. You need to actually learn a kata, Not mimic the moves but actually learn it, break it apart, study it, it will make your Karate and your fighting so much better in the long run

 

[Tez3]

There are many good exponents of pragmatic Karate, other posters can give you more names and articles etc to look up but I'm posting this as from personal experience Iain, to me, is the best.

Articles | Iain Abernethy

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There are many good exponents of pragmatic Karate, other posters can give you more names and articles etc to look up but I'm posting this as from personal experience Iain, to me, is the best.

Articles | Iain Abernethy

I could go into a lengthy dissertation on the benefit of kata and how it directly applies to real world combat. However, Tez has provided a link to one of the premier resources on the subject. My suggestion, if you truly intend to study Karate....REAL Karate and wish to understand how and why it is taught in the manner that it is you will open the link and begin reading the articles. Either start with the The Pinan-Heian Series as a Fighting System or The Basics of Bunkai (Kata Application). From there you can expand out to the rest of the articles with a new foundation of knowledge.

 

[HankSchrader]

There are many good exponents of pragmatic Karate, other posters can give you more names and articles etc to look up but I'm posting this as from personal experience Iain, to me, is the best.

Articles | Iain Abernethy

I don't think you got my point in the first post. I've all for Bunkai. I want it taught properly however.

I can see all the bunkai in the world when I look at the Kata, my problem is how Kata is trained, its not trained as Bunkai, its trained as kata. There is a difference. And even when Bunkai is done its not done in a fully alive way in Karate dojos.

I've done many different arts so I can see locks, throws, grabs etc present in the moves. Karate isn't trained the way it should be. If you're lining up doing kata as a group in your class sessions then you're wasting your time. However if your teacher shows you one move from kata and says this is a single leg tackle and has you sparring and drilling it in your class with proper resistance then its legit. The moves should be taken from kata (the bunkai) and trained seriously. And the kata should be discarded and used solely as a guide not a teaching method. You don't need a kata in wrestling, judo, bjj, sambo, boxing, kickboxing. There's no need to constantly do Kata in class, just train the hidden/represented movements in sparring. So karate then becomes a grapply/strikey art instead of just a competition of punches and kicks.

I know all about how karate is supposed to be 50% striking 50% grappling but I never see it taught that way.

Why is every Bunkai different? Could it be because its under the influence of the teacher, and noone really knows the correct application?

I've already even written out my own bunkai for different kata... the problem still stands that in class, its not being taught and these ideas are not being realistically practiced.

Most Bunkai is like this "do kata for an hour in class" then if you want to learn how to use it, don't bother trying to in Karate class, you'll have to cross train in Wrestling/judo/jujutsu/bjj etc. Its backwards.

 

[ballen0351]

I can see all the bunkai in the world when I look at the Kata, my problem is how Kata is trained, its not trained as Bunkai, its trained as kata. There is a difference. And even when Bunkai is done its not done in a fully alive way.

I've done many different arts so I can see locks, throws, grabs etc present in the moves. Karate isn't trained the way it should be. The moves should be taken from kata (the bunkai) and trained seriously. And the kata should be discarded as a guide not a teaching method. You don't need a kata in wrestling, judo, bjj, sambo, boxing, kickboxing.

I know all about how karate is supposed to be 50% striking 50% grappling but I never see it taught that way.

Why is every Bunkai different? Could it be because its under the influence of the teacher, and noone really knows the correct application?

I've already even written out my own bunkai for different kata... the problem still stands that in class, its not being taught and these ideas are not being realistically practiced.

Ohhhhhh see I didn't know you were a master and all these old Karate guys before you just had it all wrong.

 

[ballen0351]

It sounds like the rant of someone who hates karate rather than someone who is training in it.

Winner

 

[Hanzou]

Greetings all

Forgive me, English is not my first language. I am new to this forum and was looking for some guidance.

I've recently started Kyokushin and I enjoy it, however in my opinion too much time is spent on Kata and I fail to see any relevance it has to combat. We are taught kata and we go through the motions for the sake of "grading" but it really irks me as this takes the place of "live" training for major parts of sessions. I understand that Kata is supposedly a recording of techniques (however everyone teachers bunkai seems to be different which leads me to believe noone really has any idea) but why not train the techniques in kata in an alive manner first, before going through the motions of kata and committing them to memory? It would give the movements a context at least. I don't know why we even bother with Kata? If a kata supposedly has a takedown or throw recorded in it then students are not going to get good at it by doing the move its represented by in kata, they're going to get good at it by drilling it and using it in randoori against resisting opponents. Doing hours of kata isn't going to help anyone become a better martial artist than someone who solely does their whole art in an alive manner. For self defence purposes its asinine to waste time doing an act which represents something, yet not actually doing the move properly. I come from a grappling background in martial arts (wrestling, bjj) and in those arts you spend 100% of your time doing the art. A 2 hour training session in those arts involves 5 minutes warm up and 2 hours of practicing on fully resisting opponents. But in Kyokushin its split in half with kata which is very infuriating as noone at my club seems to have any experience doing the actual moves in kata on resisting opponents. Why can't karate just do away with Kata and teach the moves within kata in an alive manner? So if Kata has grappling and wrestling applications then lets just do those moves in randoori, if there's self defence applications, like getting out of wrist control then lets add that into randoori. If there's clinch fighting in Kata, then lets train that and add it into randoori etc. Just doing kata for the sake of it seems such a waste of time. If you want to do kata have the option there, similar to when you get to BB in Judo you can choose to learn a Kata, but practice Kata on your own or minimally in class. There is 0 logic in having a solo training method as part of a class group, it just wastes time.

Karate seems to be built on lineage and instructors seem terrified to deviate from the path that their teachers laid out and their teachers teacher before them. Just because your teacher taught you to do kata doesn't make it right. If karate has elements of all ranges of combat inherent in its kata, then it must be treated as such properly and trained in a modern alive way. Much like the striking segment of Kyokushin is, in competition format.

I would love it if Kyokushin just stuck to stand up and competition rules stuff as it would have a strong identity doing so. But when it is watered down with Kata and those elements are not elaborated upon, it just becomes weaker due to tradition. Why can't Karate grow up like other modern arts? Its self defence applications are severely weakened by these lazy training methods.

Does anyone else share these gripes?

Why'd you leave Bjj in the first place?

I did Shotokan for the better part of a decade and I really disliked kata practice. As Mephisto said, its (unfortunately) a method to pad instructional time in many dojos. I know a lot of people stress that its important to training, but honestly other arts have showcased that you don't need kata to produce effective martial artists. It's also pretty annoying to have some kid black belt criticize your kata poses constantly, and then you spar with him and you absolutely demolish him with ease. While you're demolishing him, neither one of you are using kata techniques. Instead you're doing some weird modified form of kickboxing. :uhoh:

If you really want to learn a hard striking style, learn Muay Thai kickboxing. You'll get the toughness of Kyokushin without the kata.

 

[Mephisto]

Kata gives you a chance to practice the technique in the most perfect manner possible. It's not designed to teach you how to fight, but rather, to help you improve your fundamental techniques to the point where you don't have to think about it while throwing the technique when doing so under less-than-perfect circumstances.

For example, learning how to punch from a chambered position isn't going to be seen in an actual fight, but that doesn't mean that such practice was without merit. If anything, learning to punch from the chambered position, using a good hikite (pullback), developing correct tension in the lateral muscles, etc., all helps when you throw that punch in an actual fight, that your body mechanics stay synchronized based on good tension and direction.

Even more importantly, it teaches you proper timing, distancing, acceleration, and most importantly, control. Even when you're in a full contact sparring session, which Kyokushin dojos often do, there is still an element of control that must be learned (and demonstrated) before they trust you to go full contact with someone who might not be able to handle your full power shots. Remember, even in full contact jiyu-kumite, you're still there to help each other out, that it's still a partnered drill where both practitioners benefit.

Once someone understands good bodily mechanics and control, then teaching them any kind of advanced technique is usually quite simple. It may seem like taking the longer path, but in the end, it's much safer and productive than letting someone just go all out from the start.




Again, the bigger picture states that the use of kata to perfect someone's techniques and mechanics is the primary goal. Once someone has these techniques and mechanics in hand, then it's actually much more straight-foward teaching someone how to perform throws, takedowns, etc., based on these mechanics. For example, if someone uses mechanics similar to the classical knife-hand block, but apply it close in using the hip twisting motion that has been deeply ingrained through many hours of kata training, along with a good sense memory of how the body works, allows him to perform a throw with relative ease.

Otherwise, if someone does not have an understanding of how the body works, and does not have the proper conditioning, you end up with his learning how to throw using too much upper body, poor synchronization of the lower and upper, etc., which leads to interfering with his development.


That being said, there probably are other ways for someone to develop mechanics, techniques and conditioning that don't involve kata. However, to say that kata is useless for such work is missing the big picture.



That is where we will simply disagree. Good techniques / mechanics are good techniques / mechanics, plain and simple. They can be applied to both a "kata" and a "non-kata" situation, and someone with those good mechanics is going to be able to hit pretty darn hard in an actual fight. Even if you're not punching from a fully chambered position, the countless number of hours spent practicing good synchronization of the lower body and the upper body (both with hip twisting and driving forward with one's legs), along with proper tension underneath the arm, will still be a very strong punch, and quite combat-worthy.



I have explained the value of kata training above. It's not the most easily apparent way to get a good set of fundamentals and mechanics, but it does work, and works quite well.

Think of it this way... If you have someone who wants to learn how to become a world-class vocalist / singer, it only makes sense that the said musician is going to spend countless hours of time practicing scales, arpeggios, intonation, vibrato, etc., before being considered ready to tackle on a difficult piece of music. Otherwise, if a voice teacher made his student sing "The Barber of Seville" during an early phase, it might not be a very productive session at all. Such a singer must be able to demonstrate that he is capable of having the correct techniques and training before being able to reap the benefits from tackling on a difficult song.

That being said, there are some truly talented individuals (both in music and martial arts) who might be able to "get it" at a very early stage. More power to them, but for the overwhelming majority of folks in these fields, it takes time and patience.



It comes with patience and time. While you may not see the value of kata training at this stage (you just started, after all), as you get more advanced, you'll grow to appreciate it.



When I first started out, yes, I did share those gripes. It wasn't until I was a green belt that I realized that there was a lot to be appreciated from Sensei's methods, and even now, after almost 30 years of training, the experience never gets stale.

I think your violin example misses the point. Boxers, and grapplers isolate techniques and work them individually or on a bag too. But your violin example concerning kata would be like trying to learn to play without a violin. You can moves your hands in a violin playing motion, you might even get some benefit from it but to say it's superior is not true. If you're in no hurry to learn to play the violin go ahead and "ghost" violin in the air, kata is the same thing. I'm not saying it's useless but if it were the superior method of training to learn fighting skill they'd be doing it in the ring or to prepare for the ring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

loved Karate but hated kata.

The form/Kata is for teaching and learning (as text book). It's not for training.