Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[Kong Soo Do]

Did I say fighting is a phone booth? I meant sex in a phone booth, haven't you heard of...phone sex

 

[tshadowchaser]

Greetings all

Forgive me, English is not my first language. I am new to this forum and was looking for some guidance.

I've recently started Kyokushin and I enjoy it, however in my opinion too much time is spent on Kata and I fail to see any relevance it has to combat. We are taught kata and we go through the motions for the sake of "grading" but it really irks me as this takes the place of "live" training for major parts of sessions. I understand that Kata is supposedly a recording of techniques (however everyone teachers bunkai seems to be different which leads me to believe noone really has any idea) but why not train the techniques in kata in an alive manner first, before going through the motions of kata and committing them to memory? It would give the movements a context at least. I don't know why we even bother with Kata? If a kata supposedly has a takedown or throw recorded in it then students are not going to get good at it by doing the move its represented by in kata, they're going to get good at it by drilling it and using it in randoori against resisting opponents. Doing hours of kata isn't going to help anyone become a better martial artist than someone who solely does their whole art in an alive manner. For self defence purposes its asinine to waste time doing an act which represents something, yet not actually doing the move properly. I come from a grappling background in martial arts (wrestling, bjj) and in those arts you spend 100% of your time doing the art. A 2 hour training session in those arts involves 5 minutes warm up and 2 hours of practicing on fully resisting opponents. But in Kyokushin its split in half with kata which is very infuriating as noone at my club seems to have any experience doing the actual moves in kata on resisting opponents. Why can't karate just do away with Kata and teach the moves within kata in an alive manner? So if Kata has grappling and wrestling applications then lets just do those moves in randoori, if there's self defence applications, like getting out of wrist control then lets add that into randoori. If there's clinch fighting in Kata, then lets train that and add it into randoori etc. Just doing kata for the sake of it seems such a waste of time. If you want to do kata have the

option there, similar to when you get to BB in Judo you can choose to learn a Kata, but practice Kata on your own or minimally in class. There is 0 logic in having a solo training method as part of a class group, it just wastes time.

Karate seems .to be built on lineage and instructors seem terrified to deviate from the path that their teachers laid out and their teachers teacher before them. Just because your teacher taught you to do kata doesn't make it right. If karate has elements of all ranges of combat inherent in its kata, then it must be treated as such properly and trained in a modern alive way. Much like the striking segment of Kyokushin is, in competition format.

I would love it if Kyokushin just stuck to stand up and competition rules stuff as it would have a strong identity doing so. But when it is watered down with Kata and those elements are not elaborated upon, it just becomes weaker due to tradition. Why can't Karate grow up like other modern arts? Its self defence applications are severely weakened by these lazy training methods.

Does anyone else share these gripes?

My first commit on this OP should have been "If you do not like the training go somewhere else. you obviously have no clue what the system or karate is all about . If you simply want to punch and kick something or someone just go do so. Karate is about more than these things but it dose involve these things
.
And for those that say kata dose not involve grappling I'll take a quote and say Parker said;"The art of Kenpo as first perpetuated in Hawaii by Mitos,stressed attacking vital areas by punching,striking, chopping, thrusting, and poking, as well as throws,locks,and takedowns."

 

[Dirty Dog]

Did I say fighting is a phone booth? I meant sex in a phone booth, haven't you heard of...phone sex

Good luck even finding a phone booth these days...

And no, the Tardis doesn't count.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Good luck even finding a phone booth these days...

And no, the Tardis doesn't count.

What are you talking about? A TARDIS is the ultimate babe magnet.

 

[donald1]

What are you talking about? A TARDIS is the ultimate babe magnet.

and you get to go to the past and watch samurai riding tigers fighting dragons and dinosuars. if that dosnt get peoples attention i dont kniw what will

 

[Zero]

What are you talking about? A TARDIS is the ultimate babe magnet.

Right on, look at all the hottie companions the Dr has these days!!

 

[Probs92]

Greetings all

Forgive me, English is not my first language. I am new to this forum and was looking for some guidance.

I've recently started Kyokushin and I enjoy it, however in my opinion too much time is spent on Kata and I fail to see any relevance it has to combat. We are taught kata and we go through the motions for the sake of "grading" but it really irks me as this takes the place of "live" training for major parts of sessions....

Not sure if this is how you to respond to a post, but here goes (first time posting).

First things first: The import of kata varies greatly from school to school. I come from a Goju-Ryu background, and in my tradition kata is very important, however in other dojos/disciplines kata is given less importance. If you are not too keen on kata, find a new school.

In my eyes, kata is vital to the transmission of karate-do from teacher to student. To my knowledge, in the days when karate-do wasn't yet conceived, the Satsuma clan of samurai occupied the Ryukyu Kingdom, which is now Okinawa, and during this period primordial ancestors of karate-do were honed. In a biological sense, martial technique darwinism played out: the successful techniques of the islanders were passed on (because those people who used the effective techniques were successfully able to defend themselves and pass on their knowledge). Unfortunately, those who used flawed technique were killed in the process, leading to the loss of the flawed technique. Eventually native Okinawan martial art evolved with influence from the Southern White Crane Fist into what is now known as Okinawan Karate-do. The first karate-do teachers threaded together these effective techniques into kata or flat out assimilated kata from other systems (viz. Sanchin Kata).

Why is this important? Because kata represents a manual full of time honed and proven techniques for self defense. Each kata contains a wealth of knowledge.

Now, all that being said, without free style training I think kata loses efficacy. In a self defense situation it is great to rely on kata because it is committed to muscle memory, but if you find yourself in the middle of a bar fight you cannot stick to pure textbook rigidity, you need to think on your feet.

Kata is like a textbook, it gives you a great deal of knowledge and prepares you for the exam, but when the times come for the test, you aren't going to have the text book and you are going to have to apply your knowledge in a new context.

 

[K-man]

Not sure if this is how you to respond to a post, but here goes (first time posting).

First things first: The import of kata varies greatly from school to school. I come from a Goju-Ryu background, and in my tradition kata is very important, however in other dojos/disciplines kata is given less importance. If you are not too keen on kata, find a new school.

In my eyes, kata is vital to the transmission of karate-do from teacher to student. To my knowledge, in the days when karate-do wasn't yet conceived, the Satsuma clan of samurai occupied the Ryukyu Kingdom, which is now Okinawa, and during this period primordial ancestors of karate-do were honed. In a biological sense, martial technique darwinism played out: the successful techniques of the islanders were passed on (because those people who used the effective techniques were successfully able to defend themselves and pass on their knowledge). Unfortunately, those who used flawed technique were killed in the process, leading to the loss of the flawed technique. Eventually native Okinawan martial art evolved with influence from the Southern White Crane Fist into what is now known as Okinawan Karate-do. The first karate-do teachers threaded together these effective techniques into kata or flat out assimilated kata from other systems (viz. Sanchin Kata).

Why is this important? Because kata represents a manual full of time honed and proven techniques for self defense. Each kata contains a wealth of knowledge.

Now, all that being said, without free style training I think kata loses efficacy. In a self defense situation it is great to rely on kata because it is committed to muscle memory, but if you find yourself in the middle of a bar fight you cannot stick to pure textbook rigidity, you need to think on your feet.

Kata is like a textbook, it gives you a great deal of knowledge and prepares you for the exam, but when the times come for the test, you aren't going to have the text book and you are going to have to apply your knowledge in a new context.

What style of Goju are you training? I am interested in your claim that kata was present in Okinawa before Matsumura, Higaonna et al. brought the kata back from China. Have you a reference for that?

 

[TimoS]

I am interested in your claim that kata was present in Okinawa before Matsumura, Higaonna et al. brought the kata back from China.

I think it's very likely there was kata in Okinawa well before e.g. Matsumura. I don't have any proof of this, but I think e.g. the Shorin try version of Seisan is much older than Matsumura. It is probably a "China import" also and "related" to e.g. Goju Seisan, they've just evolved into two distinct versions that look quite different, but still have things in common

 

[Laplace_demon]

Out of curiousity; which of the "familiar styles" in Karate does not emphasize kata over kumite and other training? Is it down to individual schools or inherent in the traditions of each styles? I don't think it's possible to train many older karate styles without heavy kata. It's a huge part of Karate.

 

[HankSchrader]

Why'd you leave Bjj in the first place?

I did Shotokan for the better part of a decade and I really disliked kata practice. As Mephisto said, its (unfortunately) a method to pad instructional time in many dojos. I know a lot of people stress that its important to training, but honestly other arts have showcased that you don't need kata to produce effective martial artists. It's also pretty annoying to have some kid black belt criticize your kata poses constantly, and then you spar with him and you absolutely demolish him with ease. While you're demolishing him, neither one of you are using kata techniques. Instead you're doing some weird modified form of kickboxing. :uhoh:

If you really want to learn a hard striking style, learn Muay Thai kickboxing. You'll get the toughness of Kyokushin without the kata.

I didn't leave BJJ, I'm a grappler I love wrestling, bjj etc

 

[HankSchrader]

Amazingly, Muay Thai achieves the same results without all of that superfluous kata training.




My dojo was under the JKA. And yes, I understand what you're explaining above. My issue is that all of that kata training is unnecessary to achieve those desired results. In fact, I would argue that that kata training is actually detrimental to that development, because its teaching unnatural movements that you're not going to be using as a part of your natural fighting style.

For example, is it necessary to learn 8 stances when you're only going to be using one? Is it necessary to learn an archaic blocking system when more natural blocking systems have been developed? Is it necessary to learn deep chambered punches when you're going to be utilizing more boxing-like punches when you actually fight?

Yes Muay Thai seems like a great style, did a bit of it and its only martial art/sport/combat based so you get good, have fun, work hard, make friends and develop character through a challenging art. Instead of wasting that time doing kata.

In Muay Thai you're either drilling with pads or doing sparring. Time isn't wasted on Kata. I like your posts Hanzou they are what I was trying to say except much more to the point

 

[HankSchrader]

Well the OP also related kata to fighting. In regards to however you want to call it. Physical effectiveness. Look if it has value outside of fighting and therefore why it should be trained it is still a valid point.

If it has some sort of non fighting self defence benefit. Then that would be an easy answer to OPs question as to why they don't just scrap the thing.

I would have thought the non fighting aspect was the lead argument in that martial arts contains histories and traditions that make the art a more complete and complex system than just a device for churning out kill monsters.

lol @ kill monsters

The traditions and histories is just a sales pitch

A martial art by definition has to be about combat, although there are other benefits to learning a martial art/sport.

For example I love freestyle wrestling because its so incredibly gruelling and you really bond and make friendships with your training partners who are pushing you hard in training. Its also incredibly fun and it teaches you to work hard. In terms of being a martial art, its 100% effective because it does what it says on the tin, it teaches people to take someone down, pin someone, throw someone, restrain someone etc who is fully resisting. Because that's all you've been doing in training. It also makes you a much more peaceful person in my opinion because it humbles you and you realise how demanding engaging a fully resisting opponent is and you have nothing to prove.

Karate on the other hand avoids a lot of these benefits because its so preoccupied with lineage and tradition and would much rather have its students punching and kicking the air in kata than actually humbling and testing themselves. All the other training, the drilling and sparring is done in spite of the time wasted in kata. Kata stops karates students achieving similar benefits as alive arts by throwing away its time on things which don't build character, friendships or combat skills nearly half as well in my opinion

 

[HankSchrader]

What on earth makes you think I'm agreeing with you? I think you are not understanding what is going on here.

The OP has gone to a karate class, he says there's too much kata, that already knows all the Bunkai for the kata and there's no enough grappling in his karate class. He says kata is pointless and karate should get rid of it.

The real point is that if he want to grappling in a kata free class karate is not for him. Why should karate have to change because he doesn't like kata? Other's don't like kata, don't see it's point there they don't do kata, they join classes in other styles that do what suits them, which is entirely sensible.

Hanzou, you can say all you like about kata ( and we have been over everything already so bringing up the same old same old is just boring), it's uses or non uses but even you don't expect karateka to change karate to suit you. if you don't like takedowns and grappling on the floor you don't take a Judo or BJJ class do you, you don't join their classes then whinge that Judo/BJJ would be really good if weren't for the floor work and they did more striking. That's what the OP is doing, he's saying that karate would be great if they didn't do kata and did more grappling.
We all have our opinions on kata, but training in a style has contains kata and then complaining about it is nuts.

How then does Iain Abernethy state that Karate is 50% grappling,
my old JKA Shotokan Teachers told me about Grappling applications and how karate is 50% grappling
as did my Kyokushin teachers.

Are they wrong? Is the JKA wrong and you are right?

All over the internet peoples Bunkai for kata involves grappling.

Is this not a huge red flag that noone seems to really know what their art actually is!!??!?!?

I bet every Judoka out there knows the same syllabus. But people can be Black Belts in Karate and disagree and debate over fundamental techniques? Its worrying

Reread my posts as its clearly gone over your head.

Its more like people make up bullsh*t bunkai to change karate to suit them.

 

[HankSchrader]

Ok.

Their choice.....as is the original poster of this thread....if they do not see the value, go to another school.

I see value in both. My school does both.

I do not see an argument here.

My point is about IMPROVING karate and using modern alive training methods with the current syllabus which I'm told by JKA instructors and Iain Abernethy involves grappling.

 

[drop bear]

lol @ kill monsters

The traditions and histories is just a sales pitch

A martial art by definition has to be about combat, although there are other benefits to learning a martial art/sport.

For example I love freestyle wrestling because its so incredibly gruelling and you really bond and make friendships with your training partners who are pushing you hard in training. Its also incredibly fun and it teaches you to work hard. In terms of being a martial art, its 100% effective because it does what it says on the tin, it teaches people to take someone down, pin someone, throw someone, restrain someone etc who is fully resisting. Because that's all you've been doing in training. It also makes you a much more peaceful person in my opinion because it humbles you and you realise how demanding engaging a fully resisting opponent is and you have nothing to prove.

Karate on the other hand avoids a lot of these benefits because its so preoccupied with lineage and tradition and would much rather have its students punching and kicking the air in kata than actually humbling and testing themselves. All the other training, the drilling and sparring is done in spite of the time wasted in kata. Kata stops karates students achieving similar benefits as alive arts by throwing away its time on things which don't build character, friendships or combat skills nearly half as well in my opinion

Our local karate is a kyokashin school. Who do kata and train alive. Now kata bores me to tears I don't do it. But they do and claim it helps them.

Now we can argue correlation does not equal causation. But that school does produce champions. So should I decide to be a karate man I would be doing the kata.

but otherwise i agree that live training is the way to go.

 

[HankSchrader]

How nice, this has turned into a kata hate/love thread instead of looking at the OPs issues of training in a style whose training methods he doesn't approve of and wants to change. Do any of the people bashing kata not think that's a bit odd? Instead of slagging off kata again perhaps you might like to re-read the OP and see why someone who claims to have 'done' several martial arts, claims to know all the Bunkai and is criticising the class he's in because he already knows more than the instructor, posted and incidentally once having set everyone off on the road of the pro/anti kata argument hasn't replied since.

Know all the bunkai? then why is everyones Bunkai different? Go on, type a kata name + bunkai into youtube and you'll get different techniques and applications per video. Occams razor says noone knows what the Bunkai is (because there isn't any)

But to those who insist on Bunkai (in which 95% of katas have grappling applications according to Iain Abernethy et al)
why aren't the grappling applications trained properly?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

karate is 50% grappling.

All MA systems claim that they train kick, punch, lock, throw. If lock + throw = grappling then all MA systems are 50% grappling by definition.

How serious does one MA system have in the grappling training? It's very easy to prove by sending students to SC/Judo/wrestling/BJJ tournaments and see what the outcome may be. If a style can send their students to grappling tournaments and bring back the 1st place trophy, nobody will ever argue whether that style has good grappling or not.

If you think that you have good

- striking skill, you should test yourself in boxing, MT, kickboxing tournaments.
- grappling skill, you should test yourself in SC, Judo, wrestling, BJJ tournaments.

It should be just as simple as that.

 

[HankSchrader]

Our local karate is a kyokashin school. Who do kata and train alive. Now kata bores me to tears I don't do it. But they do and claim it helps them.

Now we can argue correlation does not equal causation. But that school does produce champions. So should I decide to be a karate man I would be doing the kata.

but otherwise i agree that live training is the way to go.

I understand what you mean about correlation, but in my opinion that school would win even more championships/trophies if you ditched Kata. That's just my opinion but I know when I want to win a grappling tournament I need to grapple more. There are solo drills for grapplers ala Jason Scully but I know if I used them as a training method in place of some actual grappling sessions I'd never win a trophy against others training in an alive manner.
I also know when Muay Thai fighters want to become champions they do as much Muay Thai as possible, and no solo drills.
I think Karatekas are scared to deviate from the norm because of Lineage and how they are taught. Those who teach or have schools would be ostracised and accused of watering down the art if they ditched Kata, when in my opinion they'd be bolstering the art and taking it forward.

 

[drop bear]

Our local karate is a kyokashin school. Who do kata and train alive. Now kata bores me to tears I don't do it. But they do and claim it helps them.

Now we can argue correlation does not equal causation. But that school does produce champions. So should I decide to be a karate man I would be doing the kata.

but otherwise i agree that live training is the way to go.

speaking of modern alive training methods they come down and train mma with us. And so can either change their methods like integrate modern boxing or test their traditional methods against mma style attacks.

what I find happens is they do a bit of both. So for example karate kicks work in a setting that includes grappling but the distances don't. So it is not that they are just throwing their stuff in the bin. They are adjusting tactics and adding extra defences.