Long Pole
- Thread starter yak sao
- Start date
mook jong man
Senior Master
Just from looking at my Sifu's weapons book there are step by step photos of the whole form and there are 45 photos not including the starting position.
Every single raise and dip of the pole or step is a different photo so I estimate there is 45 moves.
Every single raise and dip of the pole or step is a different photo so I estimate there is 45 moves.
Mine is the same. Very short. But if that really bothers you, try repeating it four times, linking it together, alternating left and right hands forward, and changing direction each time. That way you can make it come out to exactly 108 moves... which is a classical "round" number in Chinese culture and plenty long enough. Anyway, if you like long sets, there's always the Bart Cham Dao form. But that's over my head. Maybe some day....
The pole form I learned via Ip Ching lineage was also very short.
With 3 forward Tiu Guan and 3 Back Tiu Guan 2 Hyun Guan at 45 degree angles. Followed by 2 Tiu Guan at 45 degree angles (to map out each direction) and then a Lan Guan to finish.
Very basic but sweet to practice, however as stated before the Baat Jaam Dao was more complicated with 8 sections in my lineage.
With 3 forward Tiu Guan and 3 Back Tiu Guan 2 Hyun Guan at 45 degree angles. Followed by 2 Tiu Guan at 45 degree angles (to map out each direction) and then a Lan Guan to finish.
Very basic but sweet to practice, however as stated before the Baat Jaam Dao was more complicated with 8 sections in my lineage.
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
Yep about 2 minutes is right. It is a very short form.
Mainly because if you do it with an 8 and a half foot pole your arms would give out. It is meant to train powerful short snappy movements (6 and a half movements), and is not like the other forms which are almost like an encyclopedia
Also, the pole form is seen by many schools as the less interesting form - the one that was added last to the wing chun system
I personally love it and believe it is the most applicable form in the entire wing chun system
I still haven't been able to crack walnuts on the surface of a pond though
Mainly because if you do it with an 8 and a half foot pole your arms would give out. It is meant to train powerful short snappy movements (6 and a half movements), and is not like the other forms which are almost like an encyclopedia
Also, the pole form is seen by many schools as the less interesting form - the one that was added last to the wing chun system
I personally love it and believe it is the most applicable form in the entire wing chun system
I still haven't been able to crack walnuts on the surface of a pond though
- Thread Starter
- #6
That's what I do, I just always have in the back of my head did LT leave stuff out. I have seen other lineages with a longer form.
As for the knives...............sigh
You know, I had some doubts about the pole stuff too. But I've seen LT demonstrate pole techniques (a long time ago). His skill is... scary real. I think there's a lot more to the pole than meets the eye. And, if people don't really know the techniques, they usually pad their forms with a lot of flashy BS. The fact that the WT form is so concise argues for it's authenticity.
A flashy form would be more commercial. That's the real irony about LT. At times he comes across as a money loving jerk, but he also has a fierce commitment to maintaining the quality of his art. The unresolved conflict between these two aspects of his personality accounts for a lot of the strange, contradictory behaviors attributed to him. People are complicated. I just got sick of it and opted out. But I still respect the man's technique. Always will.
Hey guys, in your pole training: hows the progression? do you start from the form, gei bun gong, chi guan? Or how does the linear progession follow?
The way i learned was
Gei Bun Gong (basic exercises were pre-requisites to build cordination, timing, power and the centerline concept)
We started as follows:
Wrist strengthening exercises One handed:
Vertical (straight up/down keeping centerline and tip placement)
Horizontal (high reference, keep centerline-outside shoulder reference tip placement should be in center)
Inside curl using jut guan (generated proper wrist torque with energy)
Basic exercise seen in a lot Shaolin Guan (Gun) ji ben gong was shoulder line lower the tip to the ground via wrist energy keep should connected.
Two handed exercises:
Saat Guan
Hyun Guan
Lan Guan
Biu Guan
Tiu Guan
Hold pole in center with both hands rotate to lower reference keeping centerline. (build linking coordination)
Then from these pre-requisites we went into the Luk Dim Poon Guan form and applications verse Baat Jaam Dao and Long Pole
Then the Chi Guan exercises were practiced as the last phase to develop Pole sensitivity, linking power etc...
The way i learned was
Gei Bun Gong (basic exercises were pre-requisites to build cordination, timing, power and the centerline concept)
We started as follows:
Wrist strengthening exercises One handed:
Vertical (straight up/down keeping centerline and tip placement)
Horizontal (high reference, keep centerline-outside shoulder reference tip placement should be in center)
Inside curl using jut guan (generated proper wrist torque with energy)
Basic exercise seen in a lot Shaolin Guan (Gun) ji ben gong was shoulder line lower the tip to the ground via wrist energy keep should connected.
Two handed exercises:
Saat Guan
Hyun Guan
Lan Guan
Biu Guan
Tiu Guan
Hold pole in center with both hands rotate to lower reference keeping centerline. (build linking coordination)
Then from these pre-requisites we went into the Luk Dim Poon Guan form and applications verse Baat Jaam Dao and Long Pole
Then the Chi Guan exercises were practiced as the last phase to develop Pole sensitivity, linking power etc...
- Thread Starter
- #9
I guess what I mean is not that I was looking for flash, in fact, the form's outward appearance is what I was expecting. It's just that I had anticipated it for so long I was like "that's it???!!!"
As for LT, I too have seen him do too much to doubt his ability. Even though I'm no longer in his organization, I will always hold his skill in high regard.
- Thread Starter
- #10
Hey Yak Sau,
Yea, your absolutely right. Thanks for bringing it up we did the same thing from a Sai Ping Ma stance with a vertical punch (yat ji chong choi) across the floor. In fact I still practice it, it was a useful training device even if your not learning the Wing Chun Pole.
We also practiced the Diu Tai Ma (Ding Ji Ma) with the pole from a retreating position. I've seen the diu tai ma in a lot of CMA'S just different variations but in some factors I believe Wing Chun's back stance is unique.
Yea, your absolutely right. Thanks for bringing it up we did the same thing from a Sai Ping Ma stance with a vertical punch (yat ji chong choi) across the floor. In fact I still practice it, it was a useful training device even if your not learning the Wing Chun Pole.
We also practiced the Diu Tai Ma (Ding Ji Ma) with the pole from a retreating position. I've seen the diu tai ma in a lot of CMA'S just different variations but in some factors I believe Wing Chun's back stance is unique.
mook jong man
Senior Master
I like that excercise too. I also like the wrist excercises that Mook mentions. The problem is that between those and my Escrima training, I've overdone it and developed tendonitis in my left wrist. It's taking forever to get better. Also, being a bit stiff-jointed, the strength training aspects of the pole have not really helped my chi-sau. Last time my instructor came to town a couple of weeks back, he told me to lay off the pole stuff. Besides, as a hobbyist, and not a professional martial artist (I'm being brutally honest here), I don't spend enough time practicing what really matters--the basics. It seems like I'm always short of time or will-power. Anybody else feel that way?
Oh and BTW "Tensei" has a Japanese ring to it? Is that so? It's just that a lot of CMA people on this forum use Japonese sounding names. I always wondered about that. Now "Geezer" or Gee-Sa. there's a proper Chinese name, right?
I speak both Japanese, Mandarin and a decent amount of Cantonese as well.
So sometimes I interject various translations of words, hey it beats trying to translate characters into English (talk about difficult) I guess that's why they invented Pinyin : )
So sometimes I interject various translations of words, hey it beats trying to translate characters into English (talk about difficult) I guess that's why they invented Pinyin : )
- Thread Starter
- #16
Now "Geezer" or Gee-Sa. there's a proper Chinese name, right?[/quote]
Speaking of names, years ago when we first began training in WT, we would get together between classes and train. Usually we went at it pretty hard (we did a lot of lat sao in the early days) but from time to time we would end up talking when we should have been training and someone coined the term "yak sao".
Speaking of names, years ago when we first began training in WT, we would get together between classes and train. Usually we went at it pretty hard (we did a lot of lat sao in the early days) but from time to time we would end up talking when we should have been training and someone coined the term "yak sao".
mook jong man
Senior Master
Have you tried doing a lot of Huen Sau's on that wrist , in the past I've had my wrist's damaged by wrist locks from over zealous partners .
After the injury I would start doing the Huen Sau movement many times through the day and usually the wrist would be ok in a couple of days . Don't know if it would work for tendonitis though.
Geezer,
I seen the suggestion for Hyun Sau training but have you also thought about trying various Qigong training sets? One that would be beneficial would be Zhan Zhuang (Canto- Jaam Jong), which is very simple as far as postures but takes a lot of discipline and foundation to train. We used this training set to couple our Wing Chun training and had good results as far as Nei Gong training and developing a strong foundational root.
I seen the suggestion for Hyun Sau training but have you also thought about trying various Qigong training sets? One that would be beneficial would be Zhan Zhuang (Canto- Jaam Jong), which is very simple as far as postures but takes a lot of discipline and foundation to train. We used this training set to couple our Wing Chun training and had good results as far as Nei Gong training and developing a strong foundational root.
Whoa... being a typical "linguistically challenged" yank, I am deeply impressed. I've spent a lot of effort to gain a limited command of Spanish and that's it. I know this is off-topic, but, how did you manage to learn three difficult languages beyond English?
Geezer,
I'm coming from a mixed or messed up background lol however you want to look at it. So I have Asian and European heritage. So i grew up learning Mandarin, English since I was little. Then when I was around 12 I started learning Japanese and when I became a teenager I started studying Southern Lian Gong as well as Northern Lian Gong so given the Southern Fist via Wing Chun, Nan Siu Lam and Bak Mei I felt the need to pick up Cantonese to complement the training and communication difficulties that may occur. (Sifu was from Hong Kong) thats it in a nutshell.
I'm coming from a mixed or messed up background lol however you want to look at it. So I have Asian and European heritage. So i grew up learning Mandarin, English since I was little. Then when I was around 12 I started learning Japanese and when I became a teenager I started studying Southern Lian Gong as well as Northern Lian Gong so given the Southern Fist via Wing Chun, Nan Siu Lam and Bak Mei I felt the need to pick up Cantonese to complement the training and communication difficulties that may occur. (Sifu was from Hong Kong) thats it in a nutshell.
