Leung Jan's system(s)?

[wckf92]

...and to add to it: secrets are not really secrets... just aspects of the curriculum and/or deeper levels of detail that are eventually passed down from instructor to student.

for example...maybe a certain conditioning drill is withheld from students until they are sufficiently conditioned with other, more basic exercises. So for the months / years they do not have access to it, they may grow to spite it as a "secret" when really it is not. It's ready and waiting for them when their level or skill gets there to receive it.

 

[Danny T]

The largest secrets are that patterns of movement, striking patterns, kicking patterns, are often nothing more than templates. Some drills are attribute development and not specific to application in fighting. Most movements, positions, etc. even when give a specific sounding name (like block) are not specific to that name. Some drills are timing development, some are range development, some are entering and/or egress drills. Practitioners tend to compartmentalize the information. It's like they put it in box and put up on the shelf..."Ok I've got that." So they have a lot of boxes on the shelf never realizing how all the parts interrelate and that the sum of all the pieces in the boxes are greater than the whole.

 

[geezer]

...I like transparency....

Sure, what's not to like!
Listed on Depop by allielele

 

[KPM]

Keith, I don't know if you mean to be or not, but you sound like you're in "attack mode" in these responses. I don't see a good reason for the secrecy (though I commend folks for holding to oaths they made in good faith), but calm discussion is likely to go farther than the tone I read in these posts. And note the way I phrased the end of that previous sentence - it may be something I'm reading that's not there, but that's something that happens in text-only discussions.

No. Not in "attack mode" at all. And I was out of this discussion and perfectly willing to let it lie until APL76 made that ridiculous post comparing things to Kentucky Fried Chicken and implying that someone was trying to steal his knowledge or fill in gaps in their own Wing Chun with his knowledge. And I'm not the one telling people they are demanding things or are acting entitled. Yes, tone it hard to tell on a discussion forum. All you can really go by is content! So I will refer you back to the comments I just made!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. Not in "attack mode" at all. And I was out of this discussion and perfectly willing to let it lie until APL76 made that ridiculous post comparing things to Kentucky Fried Chicken and implying that someone was trying to steal his knowledge or fill in gaps in their own Wing Chun with his knowledge. And I'm not the one telling people they are demanding things or are acting entitled. Yes, tone it hard to tell on a discussion forum. All you can really go by is content! So I will refer you back to the comments I just made!

I didn't find his KFC comment ridiculous, though I disagreed with the analogy. And I certainly didn't see him implying anyone was out to steal anything. I may have missed that implication, though.

 

[geezer]

I think I understand where APL 76 is coming from. For years I followed a famous and very proficient sifu who convinced a lot of people that his system of Yip Man Ving Tsun was far more refined and effective than other lineages, including the branch of YMVT taught by Yip Chun that APL 76 studied. Those of us who did baisi to this sifu and became his disciples learned the true version of his system through personal training, not just the publicly taught version, and indeed, just like APL, we could immediately see and feel the difference! Just like what APL 76 says about his Sum Nung lineage training.

...Oh, perhaps a few did not really "get it" and were not able to benefit from this more refined teaching and quit. Perhaps they were better off with the simpler, public version of WC. But those of us who really worked at the finer points reaped the benefit, we got the real secret sauce.

Unfortunately, many if not most of those subtle differences only work in the kwoon, or playing the chi sau game as your particular system plays it. At any rate these stylistic "secrets" haven't given any WC/VT/WT branch an objectively quantifiable advantage in any form of open fighting contest that I have seen. Far from it! Yes, a few tough and talented proponents may emerge from each special lineage, but to date there is no objective evidence that these kind of technical "secrets" consistently make any positive difference in real contests.

Is there a difference between close "indoor" training and superficial public instruction. Absolutely. Of course, great athletes working privately with great coaches will learn much more than what someone going to a weekend seminar or watching video by the same coach will learn. But in the final analysis, this is the result of intensive coaching. There is nothing gained by excessive secrecy. Only by open and transparent comparison and objective testing can WC/VT/WT progress as other fighting arts have. At least that's how I've come to see things.

 

[geezer]

I didn't find his KFC comment ridiculous, though I disagreed with the analogy. And I certainly didn't see him implying anyone was out to steal anything. I may have missed that implication, though.

Well now, everything is so subjective. As for me, reading about KFC, secret sauce, etc. is just making me hungry.

 

[geezer]

On the other hand, I think Keith is a little grumpy. Maybe he's just had a little too much of the TCM "true believer" BS. I know I have. But then Keith and I have both been through that stuff, more than once. Maybe we need to just chill and remember that APL 76 is not LFJ or Guy B. He's just a sincere WC practitoner who has a different point of view. In fact, a point of view pretty similar to what we had at one time. I can accept that, ...but then, I'm pretty much a WC liberal. Now excuse my while I go hug a tree.

Well, actually beat on the wooden dummy, but that's close enough.

 

[wckf92]

Of course, great athletes working privately with great coaches will learn much more than what someone going to a weekend seminar or watching video by the same coach will learn.

Nicely said. This is what I was attempting to convey in an earlier post.
Kind of like a magnifying glass being used to start a fire...unfocused, the area still recieves heat...but when focused on an individual piece with laser like strength, it ignites.

Another analogy might be akin to somethink like google maps. You can input a town or city name and get "some" detail, but thats all you'll ever see unless you zoom in and see the finer points

 

[ShortBridge]

My biggest "secrets" from my students is that it's okay to break the rules, but if you didn't follow them as beginners, they wouldn't develop the fundamentals that made us good at what we do. They need to really understand basic principals and tactics before they explore relaxing them.

So if I hold back techniques or forms or ideas, it's because it would conflict with what they are developing in themselves at this point.

Not a secret, I'm honest about it and they are okay with it.

 

[KPM]

On the other hand, I think Keith is a little grumpy. Maybe he's just had a little too much of the TCM "true believer" BS. I know I have. But then Keith and I have both been through that stuff, more than once. Maybe we need to just chill and remember that APL 76 is not LFJ or Guy B. He's just a sincere WC practitoner who has a different point of view. In fact, a point of view pretty similar to what we had at one time. I can accept that, ...but then, I'm pretty much a WC liberal. Now excuse my while I go hug a tree.

Well, actually beat on the wooden dummy, but that's close enough.

Good points Steve! I have certainly become more and more disenchanted with "traditional" martial arts recently. So maybe I am being a bit over-critical and a little grumpy! So APL76....my apologies if my tone has been a bit antagonistic. You are perfectly justified in keeping any oath you made to your teacher. However anachronistic requiring such an oath may be!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My biggest "secrets" from my students is that it's okay to break the rules, but if you didn't follow them as beginners, they wouldn't develop the fundamentals that made us good at what we do. They need to really understand basic principals and tactics before they explore relaxing them.

So if I hold back techniques or forms or ideas, it's because it would conflict with what they are developing in themselves at this point.

Not a secret, I'm honest about it and they are okay with it.

That's a good synopsis of the main reason I hold some stuff back for a while. I probably should actually hold more back than I do for that reason, actually. I tend to tell students too early what leeway there is in a technique, and some of them find that frustratingly unspecific.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well now, everything is so subjective. As for me, reading about KFC, secret sauce, etc. is just making me hungry.

You too? I need dinner, and I'm not at home, so I don't know where a damned KFC is around this joint.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, actually beat on the wooden dummy, but that's close enough.

That just sounds dirty, man.

 

[yak sao]

That just sounds dirty, man.

Just wait till he tells you about his long Pole